[Rictor]

Somethings troubling me lately. Making me a little depressed. A little uneasy. A little sick to my ****ing stomach. Could it be

a) That protestors at the Democratic National Convention will be caged off, under a bridge, a block away from the actual convention, with concrete blocks, chain fence and barbed wire?

I guess this is democracy in action? Especially since the "free speech zone" (Orwell would be proud) is UNDER A BRIDGE, so that on one end, taller protestors (taller than 5'8") will not be able to stand upright. Cost of this security zone? 60 million dollars, all to keep the evnt nice an clean from any dissent.






b) The Democratic National Convention is going to be 0% dissent, and 100% showbiz? Such political luminaries as Natalie Portman, Jerry Springer, DJ. Biz Markie (I have no idea), Amber Tamblyn (Joan of Arcadia).

BOSTON, July 25 /PRNewswire/ -- A series of video "moments" played
throughout the 2004 Democratic National Convention will highlight examples of
the ways John Kerry has touched the lives of families and communities, the
Democratic National Convention Committee (DNCC) announced today. The videos,
to be played Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights, are one of many ways in
which the Convention will help to introduce to the American People John
Kerry's lifetime of strength and service.

    Among the videos that will be shown next week are:

    John Kerry: Ambassador for Hope
    The Story of Shannon Kinsella and the Brockton Little League
    Eighteen years ago, a group of families in Brockton, MA started two little
league teams for local children with disabilities. When the national league
tried to throw them out after the first season, John Kerry became involved. He
is credited with saving the teams and eventually helping to launch the
"Challenger Division" that today includes tens of thousands of children in the
U.S. and 30 foreign countries.
    Shannon Kinsella, who was born with cerebral palsy and did not walk until
age 4 1/2, was the first "Challenger Division" player. John Kerry threw her
the first official pitch.
    The video will be played on Monday night.

    John Kerry: Champion for the Next Generation
    The Story of Michael Parker and YouthBuild
    After dropping out of school when low grades bumped him from the
basketball team, Michael Parker enrolled in YouthBuild. He credits the program
-- and in many ways John Kerry -- with saving his life.
    YouthBuild is a program in which at risk young people work toward their
GED or high school diploma while learning construction skills and building
affordable housing. After visiting the original program site in New York City,
John Kerry set out to expand the program across the nation to help change the
lives of ten of thousands of young people just like Michael Parker. Today,
over 40,000 youth have graduated from YouthBuild, and more than 12,000 homes
have been built for low-income families.
    The video will be played on Tuesday night.

    John Kerry: Loyal Friend and Brother
    The story of the "Lost Six" from the Worcester Fire Department -- Engine
16, Ladder 2
    On December 3, 1999, the Worcester Fire Department -- Engine 16, Ladder 2
-- received a report of a structure fire at the local coal storage warehouse
building. What started as a manageable fire quickly became a "monster,"
resulting in the tragic loss of six firefighters.
    John Kerry was overseas in Burma when he learned of the fire, turned his
plane around, and was there -- standing shoulder to shoulder with the families
-- for most of the difficult 15 days that followed.
    The video will be played on Wednesday night.

c) Or maybe its the fact that the hero, the hope for the future, the fearless leader, John Kerry, is exactly the ****ing same as Bush!

http://www.counterpunch.com/junaid07222004.html

[Goober5000]

Yeah.  Stuff like this does not encourage me...
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2004_07_01_voxday_archive.html#109039364683638075

[Ford Prefect]

I disagree with the notion that Kerry is the same as Bush. Yes, they are both members of the wealthy elite, but Bush is a dullard who has surrounded himself with nut jobs, and they all have their evangelical religious beliefs fused with their politics. They've taken Machiavellian political practice to a whole new playing field, leading the US on a twisted moral crusade and getting a free ride by stamping all their policies with cheap patriotism. Kerry may not be super, but he's not cut from the same mold as the current administration.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

So move to a different country if you don't like this one.  i'm so tired of the "woe is me my country sucks" attitude.  you don't like it?  move.  it's that simple.  and don't cower behind the fact that you haven't got the money to move.  if you really wanted to, you would find a way.  if you don't really want to, and aren't going to do anything to change things....then don't ***** about it.

now i agree that telling people where they are allowed to exercise free speech is stupid.  but in the end....so are these politically motivated threads.  It seems to me that people have a choice.....evangelical religious beliefs fused with their politics....or....i didn't inhale and i didn't get a blow job in the oval office.  Either way, people will find something wrong.  My answer is simple, if you don't like it aren't willing to do anything about it, then you have come to accept it.  if you have come to accept it, don't *****.  or simply move away.  

either way...there is business to be done under any form of government.  

and for what it's worth, your entire disagreement about kerry being the same as bush was stated as opinion with no facts being shown as evidence of the claims.  if you want to state your opinion that's fine, but please substantiate that opinion with facts that you are showing.  a debate is one thing, posting just to slander is another.  so please show facts along with opinion.

me personally, i don't care either way.  I back our country, not the man who runs it for four years.  I will vote for the one i like best.  

that said....i am done reading this thread.

[aldo_14]

I have to admit that looking at the carefully stage-damaged US political convnetions - and to a lesser degree, those in the UK - it does bring to mind the carefully stage managed rallies you'd see in Germany or Italy in 1939.

But, then again, does anyone expect anything different from what is, by nature, a gathering of supporters?  At the end of the day, real political change is achieved through talking to people, not showy conferences - or protests.  One eloquent speaker, willing to respect and listen to people, will always have more of an impact than a thousand screaming protesters, or cheering supporters.

[Ford Prefect]

I never said I disliked the United States. I don't love or hate countries because I view them as constructs that should serve a purely practical purpose. When I'm disturbed by the direction that society is taking, I would rather influence it in a different direction than run from the problem. I am deeply afraid of the casual way in which this administration tampers with church/state seperation, distribution of wealth, and foreign policy. Why should I leave if I want to make a difference? Those who preach patriotism ought to be mindful of the principle upon which a democratic society functions: that dissent must be built into the system.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
So move to a different country if you don't like this one.  i'm so tired of the "woe is me my country sucks" attitude.  you don't like it?  move.  it's that simple.  and don't cower behind the fact that you haven't got the money to move.  if you really wanted to, you would find a way.

That's the single most stupid thing I've heard in weeks.

[01010]

Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB


That's the single most stupid thing I've heard in weeks.

You don't read the papers much do you?

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Only the Metro

[Rictor]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
So move to a different country if you don't like this one.  i'm so tired of the "woe is me my country sucks" attitude.  you don't like it?  move.  it's that simple.  and don't cower behind the fact that you haven't got the money to move.  if you really wanted to, you would find a way.  if you don't really want to, and aren't going to do anything to change things....then don't ***** about it.

now i agree that telling people where they are allowed to exercise free speech is stupid.  but in the end....so are these politically motivated threads.  It seems to me that people have a choice.....evangelical religious beliefs fused with their politics....or....i didn't inhale and i didn't get a blow job in the oval office.  Either way, people will find something wrong.  My answer is simple, if you don't like it aren't willing to do anything about it, then you have come to accept it.  if you have come to accept it, don't *****.  or simply move away.  

either way...there is business to be done under any form of government.  

and for what it's worth, your entire disagreement about kerry being the same as bush was stated as opinion with no facts being shown as evidence of the claims.  if you want to state your opinion that's fine, but please substantiate that opinion with facts that you are showing.  a debate is one thing, posting just to slander is another.  so please show facts along with opinion.

me personally, i don't care either way.  I back our country, not the man who runs it for four years.  I will vote for the one i like best.  

that said....i am done reading this thread.

how typical.

1. I don't live in the US, nor do I ever plan to.

2. The "like it or move" mentality is bull****. People have a right to change their government if they don't like it. Its all in the Constitution, people seem to forget that.

Blind partiotism is one of the most profoundly stupid traits a person can have.

and now, for Mr. Kerry:

-Supported the Iraq War
-Supports sending more troops to Iraq, around 40,000 or so.
-Supports the PATRIOT act.
-In favour of unconditional support for Israel
-Supports the policy of pre-emptive war
-Supports neo-liberal economic policies world-wide
-Supports the overthrow of sovereign governments if it suits US interests.
-Commited war crimes in Vietnam, and actualy brags about it.
-Little respect for freedom of speech and assembly, as seen above.
-Supports the illegal detentions in Gitmo
-In the pockets of the same multinational corporations as Bush
-Cabinet made of all sorts of despicable characters, from Madeline Alright to Rand Beers (who asserts that FARC was training with Al Queda) to Welsley Clark.
-Has stiffled dissent from within the Democratic Party (Kucinich et al)
-Is not is favour of gay marriage
-Environmental policies differ only slightly from Bush's
-Is not in favour of universal health-care

There's more, though I'm too lazy to look it up. This is just off the top of my head.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

so the whole reason you posted was to flame me?  is it stupid because you don't see a way it can be done...or stupid because you know you wouldn't have the guts to try?  which is it...cowardice or short sightedness?  

before you answer....

you totally missed the point.  the point is simple...if you want something bad enough you will find a way.  if you give up on finding a way...well you didn't want it as badly as you thought.  so here's the thing...if you want to ***** about the country, then make some changes, or at least try.  if you want to ***** because you don't like it and aren't willing to do anything about it, then swallow the burger, you could have called and ordered pizza if that's what you wanted.  If someone is going to *****, and do nothing, then please...go someplace that will make you happy.

Money is a means to an end....not the only means however.  if you want something enough, you will find a way.

unless of course your happiness revolves around the ability to flame someone.    

The bottom line is...if you aren't happy with your current situation, change your situation.  it really boils down to you in the end.


oh and rictor....if you read the last two sentences in paragraph 2, you will see that i in fact do agree with you.  i love people who are willing to attempt change.

[jdjtcagle]

I agree with that post Rictor, but! Big But...
We cannot change crap, freedom is just an illusion IMO

[Gank]

Originally posted by aldo_14
But, then again, does anyone expect anything different from what is, by nature, a gathering of supporters?  At the end of the day, real political change is achieved through talking to people, not showy conferences - or protests.  One eloquent speaker, willing to respect and listen to people, will always have more of an impact than a thousand screaming protesters, or cheering supporters.

Dunno bout that mate, people who are willing to stop and listen to other people usually dont get heard at all. Anyways, like Mao said, change must come at the barrel of a gun.

[Gloriano]

The bottom line is...if you aren't happy with your current situation, change your situation. it really boils down to you in the end.

[Rictor]

I never posted to flame you, unless you're offended by the "blind patriotism is stupid" remark.

Look, the way I see it, the government should conform to the wishes of the people, not the other way around. And until it does so, I have every right to *****, protest, and generally raise hell. I also believe, and this is a bit off-topic, that the people who's wishes the government should obey are not limited to only citizens, but to anyone who is affected by its policies. So, essentially, this means that foreign policy is a whole other matter than domestic policy, and if its going to be democratic, then everyone who is affected by foreign policy, US citizen or otherwise, should get a say.

However, I do not consider this *****ing. I consider this, at worst, spreading information in a slightly irritated fashion, and at best (if people got with the damn program), political discourse. I don't think you can even argue that whats happening in Boston at the DNC is a farce. Free speech zones? Gimme a break. Though I have to admit, I find it all quite amusing.

So they want Kerry do they? Well, enjoy. Don't mind the cages and assult rifles, cause hey, at least he's better than Bush.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

no it wasn't you i was referring to with that.  and beleive me i agree that blind patriotism is idiocy.  i said i back my country.  that doesn't mean that i agree with it.  i think that our job is done over in iraq.  bring em home.  we were told that our boys would be returning once the iraqis ratified a constitution.  they did that.  now it's up to them to enforce it without us.

[jdjtcagle]

That's it!!! I'm running for president!

No wait, I can't...
You know why?

Why can't we nominate are own people to run for president?

Because the Government pwns us, there are many issues that have to be dealt with, like Shadowsomething said... "we have to deal with it"  Not by moving, that's just bullcrap...  But by doing whatever we can before our life is over from nuclear holocast.

[Ford Prefect]

Blind partiotism is one of the most profoundly stupid traits a person can have.

Is there any other kind of patriotism?

Kerry's impression is rather ambiguous due to the fact that, like most politicians, he tries to win votes from as many demographic groups as possible. I'm certainly not happy that he supported the war and the Patriot Act, or that he's opposed to gay marriage, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a politician who was outspoken on the other side. As for universal health care, at this point I think we'd need Jesus to campaign for that dream.

Second, I'm not so sure all of that is true. I've heard nothing about his support for Israel or for illegal detention, and certainly nothing about war crimes.

As for being in the pockets of corporations, that is, sadly, the name of the game. Any politician who wants to have a prayer has no choice but to sell his soul to the lobbyists. It's going to take social reform of the most drastic degree to really change that, and until then, Kerry has no choice but to play the corporations' ball game.

The bottom line is...if you aren't happy with your current situation, change your situation. it really boils down to you in the end.

I would say that voicing your thoughts is a way to effect change.

With that said, the notion that anything can be accomplished with enough will power is, I think, a liability where social awareness is concerned. It is because of that kind of social Darwinism that the poor are often foresaken by those who are too self-righteous to recognize that one's situation is very often subject to random, uncontrollable chance.

[Rictor]

Kerry admits to war-crimes, MP3 clip:
http://www.streamload.com/jmstein77/Kerry2.mp3

Kerry's Israel policy papers (its official, despite being linked to on electronic intifada. I could find another place, but I already had a link to this)
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2864.shtml

edit: I'll try to find some stuff about Guantanamo Bay later on.

[Ford Prefect]

Well all right, I see where you're coming from. I think what he's trying to say is that the Vietnam War was, in and of itself, one giant atrocity.

As for his position on Israel, you're right, it's not good.