[Kazan]

Slasher: Yes i've heard of them, now that you say who they are, i just didn't remember the acronym

vyper: tell that to my gf's dead great uncle "saved by the wonders of social medicine"

it's not my job to pay for your expenses.

[ionia23]

fact is, socialized medicine will NOT work in the US at the present time.  It's used as a political buzzword to swing votes in the lower income brackets.  It's a practice, though I'm quite a bit on the democratic side of things, I find shameful.  We have too great a population in proportion to healthcare providers to make such a system efficient.

Many employers provide some kind of health insurance who's payment remains the choice of the employee.  Heck, i know of a few companies that cover the whole deal (few and far between).  The rule with health care is "you get what you pay for".  If you are working and have some decent healthcare package, you're set.  If you're not and have to endure insane waiting times for free care, that's the price paid.

Even a McDonald's employee has health care access at the full time level.  I don't believe part-timers get it though.  Then again, if you're 30 years old, have four kids, and are working at McDonalds, you might consider taking advantage of all the 'free' options availble in education and better yourself.

Incidentally, many a year ago I lived homeless on the streets of the city I know live in.  You could say I have a unique perspective on 'the other side'.

There is no such thing as "free" healthcare.  Someone is going to have to pay for it.  More often than not, the people who work are going to be paying the medical bills for the people who don't (or won't).  I don't make these arguments because I lack compassion, I make them because I want to keep what I work so hard for.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Can i ask why the US built a fort for this Democratic Convention? Its like "i work for the people, but i dont want the people around"

Seems the rights of the US people are being slowly taken from them....

Security.  There's a more intense debate about this further up.  

Since the 'rights' we have were used against us, many of them have been eroded.  I'm divided on that particular issue.

[vyper]

[q]it's not my job to pay for your expenses.[/q]

Ah the conservative war cry - it's not my responsibility.

[q]vyper: tell that to my gf's dead great uncle "saved by the wonders of social medicine" [/q]

I never said any specific current state health system was ideal.

[Flipside]

I'd agree wholeheartedly you Kazan, as long as I were certain that people were getting what they paid for and only paying for what they are getting. The problem is not in the Health System it is the fact that several drug companies charge up 4000% the price of making a pill, and that's in the Western World, in much of Africa that prices is even higher due to lack of supply, which has been proved on occasion to be deliberately choked to keep prices up.

The problem, at least in the UK, with the Health service is that non-medical staff, mainly middle management are soaking up a hell of a lot of money, the NHS spends more money each year paying Public Relations, Personal Assistant, Secretaries, Finance officers etc than it does on training nurses. Basically it's been turned into a beuraucracy. The government loves paperwork, and the more paperwork there is, the longer it takes to process and the easier it is to lose. So we get left with a shabby, understaffed and overworked Medical side to the system.

National Health CAN work, it DID work in the UK for many years, oddly enough until the era of subcontracts and privatisation, which was bought in by our own conservatives. There will always be leeches in any system, everyone has someone at their workplace who earns loads of money and yet never appears to actually be doing something. The trick is not to worry about the actions of the few, but to take responsibility for the health of the many.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Flipside
National Health CAN work, it DID work in the UK for many years, oddly enough until the era of subcontracts and privatisation, which was bought in by our own conservatives. There will always be leeches in any system, everyone has someone at their workplace who earns loads of money and yet never appears to actually be doing something. The trick is not to worry about the actions of the few, but to take responsibility for the health of the many.

The WHO did a survey of the worlds health care systems. Every single system in the top 10 was a public health care system (France came top in case you were wondering). Thanks to years of mismanagement Britain came 18th.

USA was 38th, 6 places in front of Croatia who at the time were only 4 years out of the war.

While I might agree that America can't instantly change over to an NHS equivalent it's rather stupid of them to use that as an excuse to never try. Especially considering the shambles the system must be in to rank such a low placing.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma
While I might agree that America can't instantly change over to an NHS equivalent it's rather stupid of them to use that as an excuse to never try. Especially considering the shambles the system must be in to rank such a low placing.

Would you expand on 'shambles', please?  Serious question, I want another perspective.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
Would you expand on 'shambles', please?  Serious question, I want another perspective.

What needs explaining? The NHS is in a dreadful state yet somehow it scored 20 places above the USA.

I heard a case a little while back from someone I know in the USA who had a severe heart related problem that caused her to collapse. They called an ambulance and sent her off to hospital. She was treated in hospital and the case was diagnosed as being due to an existing heart complaint she already knew about. They gave her some pills that would greatly reduce the chance of anything going wrong and then sent here home. With a $60 bill for using an ambulance but not requiring hospitalisation.
The girl was nearly uncontious but yet they thought that since she didn't have to stay in hospital she should pay.

If that isn't a shambles I really don't know what is.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma


What needs explaining? The NHS is in a dreadful state yet somehow it scored 20 places above the USA.

I heard a case a little while back from someone I know in the USA who had a severe heart related problem that caused her to collapse. They called an ambulance and sent her off to hospital. She was treated in hospital and the case was diagnosed as being due to an existing heart complaint she already knew about. They gave her some pills that would greatly reduce the chance of anything going wrong and then sent here home. With a $60 bill for using an ambulance but not requiring hospitalisation.
The girl was nearly uncontious but yet they thought that since she didn't have to stay in hospital she should pay.

If that isn't a shambles I really don't know what is.

Of course, if we want to go case-by-case we could find a treasure trove of incidents where someone is treated badly by the health care system of any nation.  That doesn't really answer the question.  What makes the US healthcare system a shambles?

[Zarax]

What?
That's ludicrous!
Hell, in the same situation here the patient would have been hospitalized for at least a couple of days and get some serious exams!
Damn, we're not talking about silicon implants, but the cure of some serious illness dammit!
Hell, it took a century for the social system to reach the current height, and now what some people would want is to demolish it!
And for what?
Having a 2% tax discount?
I really hope you will feel well for the rest of your life... You'll need it with that kind of health care...
Also, i would like to point out a thing...
If your illness goes on for too long your insurance company can drop you (and will, especially if medical cost is higher than any potential legal one), while public healthcare won't.
It can't stand such a short sighted view... Hell, do you really think that people would have voted Bush if they received a decent enough education?

[ionia23]

It's easy to describe our current health care system as a "shambles" if were talking about case-by-case, digging out the worst of a bad lot and using that as a shining example.

[karajorma]

That's not an isolated incident. It's an example of the kind of money-driven attitude that results in the system being a shambles. It's incidents like that. Incidents where HMO's insist on substandard care for their patients because they don't want to pay for operations and things like that which make the healthcare system a shambles.  The fact that you might end up with a large bill for calling an ambulance means that people are going to hesitate to call one. Or even go into hospital at all even when they have a very serious condition.

What dragged America down is not the quality of it's care for the people who can afford it. That's top-notch obviously. It was the substandard care for the 40 Million Americans who can't afford it. The biggest irony of all is that despite their poor showing Americans actually spend the largest percentage of GDP on health of any country in the world.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma
That's not an isolated incident. It's an example of the kind of money-driven attitude that results in the system being a shambles. It's incidents like that. Incidents where HMO's insist on substandard care for their patients because they don't want to pay for operations and things like that which make the healthcare system a shambles.  The fact that you might end up with a large bill for calling an ambulance means that people are going to hesitate to call one. Or even go into hospital at all even when they have a very serious condition.

What dragged America down is not the quality of it's care for the people who can afford it. That's top-notch obviously. It was the substandard care for the 40 Million Americans who can't afford it. The biggest irony of all is that despite their poor showing Americans actually spend the largest percentage of GDP on health of any country in the world.

You just had to bring HMO's into this, didn't you.

THAT is a shambles.  That is the single worst mistake ever made in the history of health care in this country.  HMO's exist for the sole purpose of making someone else profit off the suffering of others.  Having some pencil pusher deem whether or not I can get treatment for anything?  Bull****.  That's why I'm not with one.  I know better.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know HMO's are a complete and utter ripoff for the consumer.  A failure?  Depends on your definintion.  For improving healthcare, yes.  For making the investors rich, not by a long shot.  It succeeded admirably at that.

I worked at an HMO for a few weeks back in 1997 taking calls.  We were having to explain to senior citizens why their rates were doubling and, in cases where a generic equivalent was available for a prescription drug, if they chose the brand name they would have to pay their co-pay in addition to the price difference between the two.  For certain heart medications this amounted to several hundred dollars.

This HMO's motto was: "Because we care".  

Again, we're back to getting-what-you-pay-for.  Financially it costs less to be a member of an HMO, but oh...you pay dearly for it.  Medical insurance is more, but again there are red tape issues to be dealt with.  Paying out-of-pocket is probably the hardest.

Trying to convince the 'top-notch' that they are responsible for paying the health care costs of the lower income brackets is simply not going to happen.  They love that money and will not give it up without a fight.  Could they afford it?  Sure.  But it's theirs to decide on.

Solution?

1. Doctors have the ultimate authority on what care will be provided in the best interest of the patient.

2. Find a way to pay for this that doesn't increase taxes (maybe investments using all that's collected from Social Security).

3. Incentives to people wanting to go for medical degrees in college.  Go for a med degree, get your tuition paid for in full.  Great recruitment tactic.

4. Job waiting for them when they get out, as an employee of the government.

5. Remove medical care for illegal immigrants, other than emergency care required to return them to their country of origin.

6. Price caps on prescription drugs.  I think Canada does this (please correct me if I'm wrong).

7. Caps on malpractice awards.

8. The number of times a physician has been sued for malpractice cannot be used to increase their insurance fees, only the number of times they've lost said suits.

what do you think?

[vyper]

[q]
3. Incentives to people wanting to go for medical degrees in college. Go for a med degree, get your tuition paid for in full. Great recruitment tactic.[/q]

This is true, my mate's girlfriend also gets about 30K a year in wages as of next year (she's in 3rd year Uni just now).

[q]7. Caps on malpractice awards.[/q]

Doctors play God if you let them get away with it, lawsuits are the only modern way to keep them in check.

[q]Find a way to pay for this that doesn't increase taxe[/q]

[Kazan]

Originally posted by vyper
[q]it's not my job to pay for your expenses.[/q]

Ah the conservative war cry - it's not my responsibility.

except i'm not a conservative

[Kazan]

BTW HMO's should be killed

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Kazan
BTW HMO's should be killed

for the same reasons outlined?

[Kazan]

didn't read the reasons outlined

why? because they are anything but health organizations -- doctors should have control not pencil-pushing-money-grubbing sons of *****es

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
Trying to convince the 'top-notch' that they are responsible for paying the health care costs of the lower income brackets is simply not going to happen.  They love that money and will not give it up without a fight.  Could they afford it?  Sure.  But it's theirs to decide on.

Nope. It isn't. They are part of America and as such it's up to the entire country to decide what the tax rate should be.

Unfortunately the electorate of America (like the electorate of every other country) is made up mostly of morons who can't see the big picture and just vote based on what sounds like the best deal for them.

Remember that almost every European country managed to bring in a national health system. They weren't present at the birth of these European nations.

Besides as I said before America actually pays more for its health care than anywhere else in the world. While the super-rich would end up paying more for an increase the middle classes would probably end up better off.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Gank


Think you're misunderestimating the importance of this one Kaz. Kerry is a freemason, who trace themselves back to the men who built the temple of Solomon, on the spot where the dome of the rock now sits. One of the aims of freemasonry is the rebuilding of the third temple, which puts them into the same boat as christian zionists, ie people who are trying to start ww3.

That would be rather odd, as Kerry is a Catholic, and Catholicism and Freemasonry have been at odds for centuries. That's the entire reason for the Knights of Columbus. Also, the origin is highly debated. As you can read in the Wiki, these are all suggested origins:
1. The Knights Templar
2. An offshoot of the "Mystery Schools"
3. Part of the Priory of Sion (which would be Zionists)
4. The Roman Collegia
5. Comacine masters
6. Intellectual descendents of Noah
None of which follow what you suggest.