[Sandwich]

http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/

Here's a summary:

[q]* "The Right Road to Peace"
Israel's former Minister of Tourism, Benny Elon, who was fired by Prime Minister Sharon for his opposition to the Disengagement Plan, has come up with a Biblical peace plan that he calls "Jordan is Palestine" or "The Right Road to Peace." He recently presented this plan to Jordan's Crown Prince Hassan and is presently in the United States to rally support for his plan among both Jewish and Christian leaders.

Interestingly Crown Prince Hassan's main objection against this peace plan was Israel's records of how they have treated Arab allies up till now. Arafat and his men, whom the labor politicians in Israel, with the help of mostly the Unites States, imported from exile and put in charge of the Palestinians, have been a night mare for these Arabs. Also the way Israel betrayed its South Lebanese allies in 2000 is a disgrace. In more than one case Israel has forsaken her relationship to moderate Arabs in favor of terrorists.

Elon's peace plan, which can be studied in more detail at http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/, has six steps:

[list=1]

• Dissolution of the Palestinian Authority
  Immediate dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, a non-viable entity with no future, whose existence precludes the termination of the conflict.
  
  
• Eradication of terror infrastructure
  Israel will uproot the Palestinian terror infrastructure. All arms will be collected, incitement will be stopped and all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. Terrorists and their direct supporters will be deported.
  
  
• Recognition and Development of Jordan as the Palestinian State
  Israel, the United States and the international community will recognize the Kingdom of Jordan as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Jordan will once again recognize itself as the Palestinian nation-state.
  
  In the context of a regional economic development program, Israel, the United States and the international community will put forth a concerted effort for the long-term development of Jordan, to rehabilitate its economy and enable it to absorb a limited number of refugees within its borders.
  
  
• Israeli sovereignty over Judea, Samaria and Gaza
  Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the West Bank). The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine).
  
  
• Rehabilitation of refugees and completion of population exchange
  Israel, the United States and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries.
  
  
• Peace and normalization
  After implementation of the above stages, Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict terminated. Both sides will work to normalize peaceful relations between all parties in the region.
  

The plan makes clear that a small, sliced-up and crowded Palestinian state in the areas of Judea and Samaria, aside a threatened and narrow Israel - such as envisioned in the Road Map plan - is a sure recipe for war in the near future. Elon says,

"Just like the Oslo Plan fell, and the Road Map fell, and Sharon and his disengagement will fall - the public will come to us and ask us, 'What do you propose?' - and then, we must not hesitate or stutter! We must have a serious plan, one that is on the table and known, and that is what will win."

This peace plan was recently mailed to all Jews in Judea and Samaria. Benny Elon believes that the settlers have the strongest fighting spirit today in Israel and are the key factor to the success of the plan, just as their hard work of going door to door defeated the disengagement plan within the Likud party.[/q]

It gets from me.

[Rictor]

a) What gives Israel the right to dismantle the PA? You may or may not like them, and I may even agree with you, but since when can Israel decide what to do about the PA?

b)Essentially, Israel gets the West Bank and Gaza, and in return they simply recognize Jordan, and already exisiting and independent country, as Palestne. What to the Palestinians get out of this? Its a one-sided deal. This is equivalent to the Palestinians just giving up the OT to Israel. Also, what about Jerusalem?

c) The plan includes the dismantling of the "terror infrastructure", but does nothing about the IDF. In essence, you would have one side disarm, while the other retains its arms? Strategically, why would anyone agree to this? Whatever you may think of the Palestinian terrorists/militants/insurgents/freedom fighters, you can't reasonably expect them to disarm, knowing that they have been in armed conflict with the IDF for decades.

d) The status of the residents of the OT is left vague and unresolved. Are they Jordanian citizens, and if so, will they remain in the OT, and if so, what rights will they have.

e) The issue of the displaced people from 1948 remains unresolved. Will they in no way be compensated? I'm assuming the right of return is out of the question. They have yet to recieve so much as an apology, or even an admission that they have been wronged.

f) Who gives Jordan the right to speak on behalf of the Palestinians. The shabby treatment they (the Palestinians) have recieved from neighboring countries should confirm that these countries do not have the best interests of the Palestinians at heart, so why should they have jurisdiction over them? The Palestinians need their own leadership and government.

[Rictor]

another thing, looking at the Maps section of the website, specifically the Refugees map, the words "completion of the process" show a rathe heavy bias, as does most of the rest of the website.

The authors seem to think that becuase Jewish refugees were coming in to the territory that was to become Israel, that it is somehow natural that the natives be kicked out. Thats like saying that because I have come into your home, it stands to reason that you should leave, and that thats nice and normal.

Not to rain on your parade Sandwich, I'm just offering my honest opinion. The plan seems to be very pro-Israeli, and doesn't compromise on most of the key issues.

[Sandwich]

A lot of the questions you raise are addressed on the site, so pardon my quoting .

Originally posted by Rictor
a) What gives Israel the right to dismantle the PA? You may or may not like them, and I may even agree with you, but since when can Israel decide what to do about the PA?

What gives the PA the right to represent the Palestinians? They've wronged them in so many ways - stole funds, initiated incitement, supported and encouraged hatred, and participated in terrorisim - that kind of an organization has the right to be a viable contact for a people that resent it?

Granted, Israel doesn't have a legal right to deal with the PA (AFAIK). But something needs to be done to remove their negative influence, and in the end of things, the occupied territories can be "policed" by one military force alone - Israel's. It's a matter of who's the best people for the job. If the UN had any chance of uprooting the terror infrastructure, then I guess they'd be ideal. But the thought of the UN enforceing something is simply laughable.

b)Essentially, Israel gets the West Bank and Gaza, and in return they simply recognize Jordan, and already exisiting and independent country, as Palestne. What to the Palestinians get out of this? Its a one-sided deal. This is equivalent to the Palestinians just giving up the OT to Israel. Also, what about Jerusalem?

The Palestinians get full citizenship in a soverign nation, with the full aid of the US and Israel (and hopefully do-good humanitarian bodies like the EU and UN) to help Jordan absorb the refugees. From the site: [q] While based on the principle of "two states for two nations", the proposed Road Map does not achieve that goal.

It is not a "two state solution" at all. Without the complete destruction of Israel, Palestinians Arabs can only be offered a state-like entity, unable to sign international agreements, without an army and made up of a number of small and overcrowded fragments of territory.

This quasi-state would not have natural borders. Rather, population centers on both sides will straddle the border, perpetuating continued friction between Israelis and Palestinians.

The Palestinian entity's economy will be permanently dependent on Israel.

This entity would be an Israeli protectorate, leading to an intensification of the sense of humiliation felt by Palestinian Arabs who would aspire to encroach further into Israeli territory.

The refugee problem will not be solved through this entity and Palestinian Arab demands for the right of return will continue to threaten Israel's existence. The motivation for terror will remain high.

From every aspect - geographic, economic and demographic - it is clear that it will be impossible to resolve the problem within the small, overcrowded area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. [/q]

c) The plan includes the dismantling of the "terror infrastructure", but does nothing about the IDF. In essence, you would have one side disarm, while the other retains its arms? Strategically, why would anyone agree to this? Whatever you may think of the Palestinian terrorists/militants/insurgents/freedom fighters, you can't reasonably expect them to disarm, knowing that they have been in armed conflict with the IDF for decades.

The IDF is the equivalent of Jordan's military, not the Hamas/Islamic Jihad/etc. Your parallel between a soverign nation's armed forces and terrorist organizations is illogical in the extreme. "Well, if the USA dismantles Al Qaida (sp?), the USA's armed forces would then need to be dismantled as well." Utter nonsense.

d) The status of the residents of the OT is left vague and unresolved. Are they Jordanian citizens, and if so, will they remain in the OT, and if so, what rights will they have.

From the site: [q]In the framework of the eradication of terror, the terrorist heads and inciters will be deported from Judea, Samaria and Gaza. The dismantling of the refugee camps, part of the rehabilitation process, will reduce the Arab population in these areas and lessen the poverty and density in the Palestinian Arab towns.

The Arab population that will continue to reside within the new areas of the State of Israel, will benefit from the civil rights conferred by Israel, but its citizenship will be Palestinian, and its political rights will be actualized in Amman. The actual administration governing the Arab sector will derive its authority from the Israeli sovereign, but will enjoy limited autonomy in a form to be determined in negotiations between Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine.[/q]

e) The issue of the displaced people from 1948 remains unresolved. Will they in no way be compensated? I'm assuming the right of return is out of the question. They have yet to recieve so much as an apology, or even an admission that they have been wronged.

From the site:[q] b]Completion of the population exchange begun in 1948:

The relocation and rehabilitation of the Palestinian refugees in Arab lands will complete the population exchange process begun in the 1940s:

• The State of Israel absorbed millions of Jewish refugees from all over the world and, within a few years, these refugees became citizens of the state with full rights.
• Almost one million of these refugees fled from Arab lands leaving behind property and wealth for which they were never compensated.

At the same time, the 1948 War of Independence created hundreds of thousands of Arab refugees who fled to Arab lands.

While the Jews displaced from Arab lands were rehabilitated and naturalized in Israel, the Arab countries refused to do the same for Arab refugees.

The resettlement of these refugees and their descendants will complete a historic circle of population exchange. This will result in the emergence of countries where the majority of their population shares a common nationality and culture. [/q][/b][/color]

f) Who gives Jordan the right to speak on behalf of the Palestinians. The shabby treatment they (the Palestinians) have recieved from neighboring countries should confirm that these countries do not have the best interests of the Palestinians at heart, so why should they have jurisdiction over them? The Palestinians need their own leadership and government.

This point is the one point you raise that I partially agree with - Jordan's past treatment of the Palestinians has been worse than Israel's treatment of them. The question is why? Do they simply not like them? If so, that's a problem. Or was it a lack of (cap)ability (funds & infrastructure) to properly absorb them? If that's the case, then:[q] What would Jordan gain from becoming part of the regional settlement?

The current Jordanian regime is friendly to Israel and for the most part pro- Western. Its stability, however, is currently in danger because of its delicate geopolitical status. The lack of clarity concerning the status of its Palestinian majority and the danger posed to it by the establishment of an additional Palestinian state would foment unrest among the Palestinian population of Jordan against the government.

The dissolution of the Palestinian Authority and the subjugation of the PLO establishment would elicit a sigh of relief in Amman and pave the way for the underscoring of the Palestinian character of Jordan, whose absolute majority - including the Queen and numerous senior government officials - is Palestinian.

A comprehensive development program for Jordan, accompanied by moderate reforms to bolster its Palestinian character, is likely to be welcomed in Amman and would move the kingdom forward to a more hopeful future.

Jordan's principal problems are economic. It could be significantly strengthened by Israel and the United States in the context of a regional "Marshall Plan" integrated with the rebuilding of Iraq.

A comprehensive, internationally funded development plan for Jordan, most of whose territory is undeveloped, would facilitate the absorption and naturalization of the Arabs of Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

Israel has a profound interest in the development of Jordan as a Palestinian state. The transfer to Jordan of significant portions of American military aid to the Middle East could significantly transform Jordan's economy.

The normalization of relations and cessation of hostilities would significantly reduce the need for major U.S. foreign defense aid, part of which could also be reallocated to boost Jordan's economy. [/q]
Or is it simply a matter of Jordan and the Arab world using the plight of the Palestinians to oppose Israel's existance?[/color] [/B]

Originally posted by Rictor
another thing, looking at the Maps section of the website, specifically the Refugees map, the words "completion of the process" show a rathe heavy bias, as does most of the rest of the website.

The authors seem to think that becuase Jewish refugees were coming in to the territory that was to become Israel, that it is somehow natural that the natives be kicked out. Thats like saying that because I have come into your home, it stands to reason that you should leave, and that thats nice and normal.

Not to rain on your parade Sandwich, I'm just offering my honest opinion. The plan seems to be very pro-Israeli, and doesn't compromise on most of the key issues.

Thousands of years ago... ;) The Palestinians are not the only ones to have been native to this area. The Jews were here "first", but before them you had the (non-existant in this day and age) peoples of Canaan.

[Kosh]

The US is not really interested in peace in the region. If they were, they would actually try to do something about it other than invading Iraq.

[Blaise Russel]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Thousands of years ago... The Palestinians are not the only ones to have been native to this area. The Jews were here "first", but before them you had the (non-existant in this day and age) peoples of Canaan.

Not really. I can't exactly go back to my parents' old house and tell the current inhabitants to shift because I'm descended from somebody who used to live here before they did.

[aldo_14]

Surely it should be the Palestinians choice who represents them?  Be it the PA or not.

[Rictor]

The problem with the plan is, Jordan and the OT are seperate entities. Jordanian territory is not being disputed, Gaza and the West Bank are. Saying that the Palestinians should give up the OT to Israel in return for which they will recieve Jordanian citizenship is absurd. Why not Italian citizenship, or Japanese? Jordan is already recognized as a full, legal country, so Israel is not really making any concessions here. They would simply recognize Jordan as "Palestine", and in return would get all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Furthermore, I don't think Jordan would really be willing to do that. Neither would the Palestinians. If land, and land, was as good as any other land, there wouldn't be a conflict in the first place. Palestinians want that specific bit of land, as does Israel. And therein lies the problem.

Now, while I do agree with you that the PA is corrupt and ineffective, they're the closest thing the Palestinians have to a government. Jordan doesn't care about them, neither does Egypt or Lebanon. So, they need someone to speak for them, and until they come up with something better, thats the PA.

Regarding the disarmament of Hamas & Co (and organization which I think I should point out Israel created), well, they both exist to defend against an invasion from the other. In theory this is true, but in practice, both have attacked targets within the other's territory. So far as Palestine exists as a seperate entity, apart from any neighboring Arab country, Hamas is their military force. However, I don't think you can expect Palestinians to give up their army (its as close as they have to an army) without any was to insure that the IDF won't attack.

Just like the Etzel, Irgun and Lehi members (terrorists, they even admitted it themselves) were made part of the Israeli army, so Hamas, Islamic Jihad and all of those ought to be made into an official army.

its late (or rather, its early) so I'll continue this tommorow.

[karajorma]

What a load of crap. It's just an attempt to legitimise stealing the Gaza Strip.

[Drew]

I put "Definitely not!"; only cuz if i was in charge and could get away with it, id ship em all to antarctica.

I didnt read it that througouly, but it works for me

[Blaise Russel]

Originally posted by Drew
I put "Definitely not!"; only cuz if i was in charge and could get away with it, id ship em all to antarctica.

I didnt read it that througouly, but it works for me

Or Madagascar, perhaps?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Drew
I put "Definitely not!"; only cuz if i was in charge and could get away with it, id ship em all to antarctica.

Just the palestinians or everyone in Israel and Palestine?

[Janos]

Nice land-grab plan! I voted "Aww hell naw!", in Will Smith manner.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


Just the palestinians or everyone in Israel and Palestine?

Everyone in the Middle East, probably.  Easy oil access that way.

[Styxx]

But then you'd lose all the potential oil fields on Antartica... Or you'd have to ship them all back once the oil in the middle east was gone.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by karajorma
What a load of crap. It's just an attempt to legitimise stealing the Gaza Strip.

Probably being anal about it, but Gaza is actually not what Israel is after that much. Its small and infertile. The West Bank is something like 15 times the size, and has much more arable land. Thats the essence of the Disengagement Plan. Give the Gaza, and dismantle a few settlements, but in exchange take a bigger piece of the better land (West Bank) and just move the settlers over. One of the only reason why Israel needs Gaza is as a buffer zone with Egypt, and even with the Disengagament Plan, they plan on keeping Philadephi road, which serves that prupose.

I don't know why there is so much opposition to it in Israel, its actually a very sweet deal, and not at all the humanitarian gesture its made out to be.

[Black Wolf]

The Australian Ambassador to Israel was fired today after presenting what he called his "8 Lane Highway to Peace" to the israeli parliament yesterday.

"It's the Palestinians Land. **** off."

There is currently no word on who will replace him.[/i][/COLOR]

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Rictor
Probably being anal about it, but Gaza is actually not what Israel is after that much.

I know but only a fool of galactic proportions could believe he'd get away with an attempt to legitimise stealing the West Bank.

[Tiara]

I'm sorry to say this but the only way to get peace is:

1). Having some ID4 aliens threaten Earth and they have no choice to team up with the rest of the world (yeah, like thats gonna happen )

2). A major conflict between the two that results in mutual annihalation and start anew,

3). Or steamroll the entire region. Glass it. Destroy it. And then rebuild it.

Seriously, the fighting will never stop untill you start with a clean slate. There will always be hostility. There will always be killing. Always. it's sad really.

I'm really sorry to say all this but I truly believe that the 'clean slate'-way is the only way to really start over. Diplomatic intervention from the US, UN, etc etc will do exactly ****. Diplomacy in the region itself will do exactly ****. No side will ever be happy and the fighting goes on.

A sad sad situation, but it's the cold hard truth.

[pyro-manic]

@ Black Wolf: Heehee! Great stuff...

Definitely not. This "plan" has nothing to offer the Palestinians, and essentially means that Israel gets it's own way. I can't support that.

I'd have to agree with Tiara on this - they'll never sort things out of their own accord. I say isolate the lot of 'em. Take away all the weapons and support from outside, build a big wall around the whole place, and leave it for 20 years. Then open it up, and see what happened. Either they'll be living in a lovely, integrated society, or they'll all be dead. Either way, problem solved.

This conflict is so pathetic I can't even begin to describe how much it disgusts me. We're supposed to be a civilized species, and yet this kind of thing is still happening...