[Tiara]

Originally posted by pyro-manic

This conflict is so pathetic I can't even begin to describe how much it disgusts me. We're supposed to be a civilized species, and yet this kind of thing is still happening...

Amen to that.

Though I wouldn't call Humanity 'civilized'...

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Tiara
I'm sorry to say this but the only way to get peace is:

1). Having some ID4 aliens threaten Earth and they have no choice to team up with the rest of the world (yeah, like thats gonna happen )

2). A major conflict between the two that results in mutual annihalation and start anew,

3). Or steamroll the entire region. Glass it. Destroy it. And then rebuild it.

Seriously, the fighting will never stop untill you start with a clean slate. There will always be hostility. There will always be killing. Always. it's sad really.

I'm really sorry to say all this but I truly believe that the 'clean slate'-way is the only way to really start over. Diplomatic intervention from the US, UN, etc etc will do exactly ****. Diplomacy in the region itself will do exactly ****. No side will ever be happy and the fighting goes on.

A sad sad situation, but it's the cold hard truth.

You're sitting at a computer desk, 10,000km away, of course you can say this and that, it doesn't affect you. Thats essentially how Washington's foreign policy has been run for decades. Someone sitting in DC thinks they are wise and infallable, and thinks they have the right to play God with the lives of people half a world away and nations which they do not understand.

I wouldn't trust anyone to make Israel/Palestine policy other than the people directly involved in the conflict (with the possible exception of people who have not only lived in the region, but have dedicated their lives to its study; think Edward Said). First of all, there is a deep, deep ignorance about who these people are and what their lives and hopes are like. Usually, its the same shallow stereotype over and over, based upon which foreign policy-makers lay all their plans. Only with a deep and profound understanding of the conflict and the people involved can someone make succesful policy, and even then, their right to do so is questionable if they are not affected.

For thousands, even millions, of Israelis and Palestinians, a peaceful solution, however unlikely it may seem, is the only hope. Palestine has been occupied by one power or another for thousands of years, stating that peace is somehow impossible comes off as a bit arrogant to me. I would think that a history teacher would appreciate just how, relatively speaking, small this conflict is. How many times has an "unresolvable" conflict been settled in the past? Most of the great European powers wee at each other's throat at one point or another, and yet look at the EU today.

I just typed that entire post over my cat, who has taken up sleeping where the keyboard should be. Cats, they have some sort of natural instinct where they know exactly where they will cause the most inconvenience, and there proceed to calmly lie down and fall asleep there.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Rictor


You're sitting at a computer desk, 10,000km away, of course you can say this and that, it doesn't affect you. Thats essentially how Washington's foreign policy has been run for decades. Someone sitting in DC thinks they are wise and infallable, and thinks they have the right to play God with the lives of people half a world away and nations which they do not understand.

[/b]
Question; have you lived from age 4 to 10 in a poor country where fighting between religious factions, rebels and **** was normal at the time (indonesia in this case)? Well, I have. I know what kind of **** it is about. And I also know that the only way to solve these fights is to finish it once and for all and start over.

I'm most definately not some 'holier then thou' politician in Washington. And I resent the fact that you think I am.

I wouldn't trust anyone to make Israel/Palestine policy other than the people directly involved in the conflict

*BUZZ* Foul! Your out!

If you leave it up to them, the conflict will only be perpetuated. Nothing will ever stop unless the entire region collectively rises up and says 'It stops here!'. But we both know that will never happen.

First of all, there is a deep, deep ignorance about who these people are and what their lives and hopes are like. Usually, its the same shallow stereotype over and over, based upon which foreign policy-makers lay all their plans. Only with a deep and profound understanding of the conflict and the people involved can someone make succesful policy, and even then, their right to do so is questionable if they are not affected.

Once again, you cannot make any policy between the two sides involved in this conflict.

1). They both want the same and yet the exact opposite.
2). Terrorists will never stop just because some politicians say so. 1 terorist is enough to escalate the entire conflict once again.

For thousands, even millions, of Israelis and Palestinians, a peaceful solution, however unlikely it may seem, is the only hope. Palestine has been occupied by one power or another for thousands of years, stating that peace is somehow impossible comes off as a bit arrogant to me. I would think that a history teacher would appreciate just how, relatively speaking, small this conflict is. How many times has an "unresolvable" conflict been settled in the past? Most of the great European powers wee at each other's throat at one point or another, and yet look at the EU today.

1). The EU today is basically formed through war and basically complete annihalation. You know, the thing called WORLD WAR 2.
2). Name any unresovable conflict that has been resolved without one side giving in to the other's demands.

And yes, i know this conflict isn't that big, but obviously it has a proportionally bigger impact on the world. Both religious and political. Just because it's confined to a few countries doesn't mean it's a 'small' conflict.

I just typed that entire post over my cat, who has taken up sleeping where the keyboard should be. Cats, they have some sort of natural instinct where they know exactly where they will cause the most inconvenience, and there proceed to calmly lie down and fall asleep there.

Don't start... I know all about that

[Ford Prefect]

A major conflict between the two that results in mutual annihalation and start anew

You can rest assured that if Israel unleashed the full might of its military against Palestine, the annihalation would most certainly not be mutual.

Yep, Rictor. My cat does the exact same thing when I'm typing. Drives me nuts but I just can't really get mad at him.

EDIT: The formation of the European Union was not out of World War 2. It was a trade agreement that began as the Common Market in the 1950s, I believe.

[karajorma]

Here's the solution. Every week we shoot the leader of Israel and Palestine until we see progress.

That way we go straight to the source and ignore all the common people in both countries who just want to live their lives in peace.

Hey Blair. Invite the leaders over to the UK for a "conference"

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
You can rest assured that if Israel unleashed the full might of its military against Palestine, the annihalation would most certainly not be mutual.  

Yeah it would. With the Palestinians gone Israel would face economic collapse. Why do you think they haven't just closed off the borders and been done with it yet? After that it would only be a matter of time before civil war wiped them out too.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect

You can rest assured that if Israel unleashed the full might of its military against Palestine, the annihalation would most certainly not be mutual.

[/b]
Yet it would NEVER be able to eradicate the underground movements and terrorism would be at an all-time high. Just look at America and it's military supremacy.

The conflict would simply continue only on a different level. And I think the death toll would only be worse then it already is.

EDIT: The formation of the European Union was not out of World War 2. It was a trade agreement that began as the Common Market in the 1950s, I believe.

Yes, but all that could be realized because of the WWII. After that, Europe became more unified because they could start over.

[ionia23]

What a great idea!

[Flipside]

It's pretty much the same 'gift' as always, all wrapped up in shiny paper. And, just like a present, I see precious little say from the reciever as to it's contents.

[Ace]

Originally posted by ionia23
What a great idea!

Well, if it's such a great idea you're free to move to Israel

[Flipside]

Oh yes, and damn the UN soldiers for not being able to enFORCE anything, you know what they're like though, ask questions first and shoot later

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by karajorma
Yeah it would. With the Palestinians gone Israel would face economic collapse. Why do you think they haven't just closed off the borders and been done with it yet? After that it would only be a matter of time before civil war wiped them out too.

Uhh.... no. With Israel gone, the Palestinians would collapse. Remember, it's the Palestinians who travel back and forth to Israel for work. And if all the "cheap labor" of the Palestinians was cut off, then yeah, it'd be hard, but Israel does have over 10% unemployment.

If Israel completely cut the Palestinians off from entering Israel, they would be in deep dish doodoo. As has been said here already, it seems like the state of Israel is more worried about the Palestinians plight than any of their so-called Arab friends in the surrounding nations.

Originally posted by Flipside
Oh yes, and damn the UN soldiers for not being able to enFORCE anything, you know what they're like though, ask questions first and shoot later

Don't get me started on the f***ing UN soldiers, m'kay? They're the ones who allowed my friends to be kidnapped right under their noses, all because they were "observers". Bullsh*t.

[Flipside]

Well, I'm sorry about your friends, I'm inclined to think they should have done their job as soldiers and protected your friends safety, however, I for one would be somewhat nervous if the UN started enforcing some of their resolutions.

[Gank]

Benny Elon has a peace plan
And it involves the old Jordan is the palestinian state arguement again, what a surprise.
Heres a quote from the same guy:

"It's clear that Islam is on the way to disappearing. What we are now seeing across the Muslim world is not a powerful surge of faith but the dying embers of Islam. How will it disappear? Very simply. Within a few years a Christian crusade against Islam will be launched, which will be the major event of this millennium. Obviously, we will be up against quite a large problem when only the two great religions of Judaism and Christianity remain, but that's still a long way off."

This guy has a peace plan? Please.

Originally posted by Sandwich


Uhh.... no. With Israel gone, the Palestinians would collapse. Remember, it's the Palestinians who travel back and forth to Israel for work. And if all the "cheap labor" of the Palestinians was cut off, then yeah, it'd be hard, but Israel does have over 10% unemployment.

That arguement is incredibly dumb sandwich.

Originally posted by Sandwich
If Israel completely cut the Palestinians off from entering Israel, they would be in deep dish doodoo. As has been said here already, it seems like the state of Israel is more worried about the Palestinians plight than any of their so-called Arab friends in the surrounding nations.

Ya, and thats why they're kicking them off their land and colonising it

Originally posted by Sandwich
Don't get me started on the f***ing UN soldiers, m'kay? They're the ones who allowed my friends to be kidnapped right under their noses, all because they were "observers". Bullsh*t.

Speaking on behalf of the few boys I know that served over there, the fact that Shin Bet kidnapped and murdered an Irish soldier on duty over there probably led to an attitude of who gives a ****.

Btw Sandwich, like to get an explanation for this:

"When Rehoboam came to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, and the tribe of Benjamin, a hundred and eighty thousand chosen warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon." (1 Kings 12:21 RSV)

[magatsu1]

this whole thing started 'cos both the palestinians and the post WW2 displaced Jews were promised the same patch of land. But it's a friggin' desert. Just sand and a few rocks (and militant Muslims)

What they should have done was give the Jews Bavaria. Lovely place (Hitler had his villa there, near the Alps) much bigger than modern-day Israel (11.000sq. mlies v 70,000) plenty of natural resources and it would have plenty pissed post war Germany.

and congrats on the Gold Medal Sarney.

[Gank]

Umm, the palestinians were already there, they werent promised anything, they already had it. Jews legally owned 7% of the land that copmposed the Jewish state in 1948, the rest was got by driving out the palestinians.

[magatsu1]

yeah, but Palestine (at the time) was ruled by the Uk. They both recieved assurances from the Allies about the contested lands.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Gank
Umm, the palestinians were already there, they werent promised anything, they already had it. Jews legally owned 7% of the land that copmposed the Jewish state in 1948, the rest was got by driving out the palestinians.

Too ****ing bad for them, then.

[Rictor]

I thought it was four percent-ish. Anyway, this is the land bought up by the Jewish National Fund on behalf of Jews worldwide (with money from wealthy donors in the Diaspora). Sure, they paid high prices for it, but if want to get legal about it, that the legally owned land.

At this point, bringing Israel's existance into question simply isn't valid. No one can really expect them to pick up and move, nor should they. But IMHO, an effort should be made to compensate the displaced Arabs (as for example Germany is doing to those persecuted during WW2) and to come to a solution that ackowledges both Israel's right to exist, and the Palestinian's claims to the land.

[BlackDove]

Well if it were up to me, I'd give the entire region a six month notice (to pack up and leave, Israeli's and Palestinians alike), after which I would submerge the whole territory under water. Nobody gets it. You can visit your old home in a tourist submarine if you wish so.

Simple. None of the sides really have any justification for obtaining the land. On one hand Israeli's don't have the right to it, just simply because "it was ours" phrase is inane. Palestinians don't have the right to it, because they're obviously too weak to defend it.

Just split it down the middle. If you can't have it peacefully, nobody gets to have it. Bam.

[Ford Prefect]

Palestinians don't have the right to it, because they're obviously too weak to defend it.

Last I checked this was not the Stone Age.