Author Topic: well colour me surprised, Putin consolidates power  (Read 3186 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Clave
But, surely putting lives at risk for an abstract concept such as freedom is indicative of worse government than trying to protect citizens from terrorists?


No.  Removing freedoms removes the accountability of governement, the existence of a higher power - the people - who can evaluate and judge government responses.  

For example, you could probably remove a large amount the terrorist risk by placing everyone in the country (i.e. US or UK) who was Muslim, of an Arab origin, or had visited an Arab/Muslim country into a concentration-stroke-internment camp (ala Guantanamo bay).

History has shown that a loss of freedom only leads to disaster for the populace - Hitler and Stalin being the best examples in recent times.  And it's a slippery road... once you abandon the principle of enforcing democracy and freedom as a fundamental part of government, the floodgates can open.

The way to prevent terrorism does not lie with disempowering the people.  If anything, that will hurt these efforts - people will become less likely to co-operate with a government that they cannot influence the policies of, and you again have a lack of oversight.

Quote
Originally posted by Clave
So, everything is just fine the way it is then?

No need to make any changes?


Nothing is perfect.  But negative change is worse than no change.

 

Offline IceFire

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After all...Hitler was all about protecting the Germanic peoples from being overtaken by the Slavs and other cultural/ethnic groups who he believed were taking over the world.

The terrorists win if they let fear dictate the response and "force" us to change the core beliefs of western democracies.
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Offline Clave

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Is democracy a guarantee of freedom?

True you can vote for whoever you like, but you are voting for the same type of person in all cases, ie: politicians.  

And why do people enter politics?

To gain power, money, and influence, and climb to the top of the sludge-pit where they can line their pockets with taxpayer's money and get their cronies good contracts for goverment work.

Would I vote for a politician every again?  I don't think so....

Elections are a waste of time.  The person with the most money/best ad campaign wins...
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Offline Flipside

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There is no garaunteee of freedom, no undeniable safety. There never will be. Terrorism is just a symptom, not a disease, to crack down on the symptoms will not eradicate said disease.

All surrendering freedom does is lose freedom, nothing else, surrendering freedom cannot defeat terrorism, surrendering freedom cannot protect your family, it can only lose you freedom.

Terrorists are evil scum, I don't doubt that, but before we start trying to track them down and kill them, maybe we need to be asking what made these people evil scum, and it's nothing to do with their religion.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Quote
Elections are a waste of time. The person with the most money/best ad campaign wins...


That only might be true if the country has an uneducated majority of masses, which is true in the majority of countries. Until such a majority is "removed", elections will always have a money/best ad campaign content that will dictate that majority. If everything works out as planned I suppose the majority of northern world countries will have that majority removed in about 50 years maximum.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline vyper

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[q]You are prepared to let another 9/11 happen to protect your freedom?[/q]

Yes.

[q]Is democracy a guarantee of freedom?[/q]

Name me another system where the people can choose, hold accountable, and question the people who govern thier country?
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Clave

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Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Terrorists are evil scum, I don't doubt that, but before we start trying to track them down and kill them, maybe we need to be asking what made these people evil scum, and it's nothing to do with their religion.


I agree that they are evil.

But, the cause is without doubt religion.  You only have to look at Ireland to see that.
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Offline Zarax

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Religion is a mere excuse in Ireland too right now, it's more another thing... All bow before the almighty $$$ God!
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Clave

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I was referring of course to the 35 years of US-funded terrorism that has recently ended of course....

Relgion may not be believed or practiced, but if you have the label given to you by your parents, then you carry all the baggage associated with that.
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Offline Zarax

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I'm not sure about what you mean...
Unless you're jewish (and even in that case it's not easy) you cannot be recognized as follower of any religion...
Thankfully we are still able to change our beliefs, and besides that do not mix religion with the twisted ideologies that are the base of terrorism...
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Tiara

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Quote
Originally posted by Clave

But, the cause is without doubt religion.  You only have to look at Ireland to see that.

Ok, I don't like religion one bit but that's just the most retarded statement EVER.

:doubt:
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



...because I can :drevil:

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Clave


I agree that they are evil.

But, the cause is without doubt religion.  You only have to look at Ireland to see that.


Last time I heard, there wasn't a massive outbreak of aetheism in Ireland, so how come the peace process has been so succesful in stopping more attacks?

 

Offline vyper

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I like how you skipped the issue of an alternative to democracy that matched my requirements... anyway....
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline vyper

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[q]**** DRAFT IN FINLAND[/q]

Is that like a draft coming in an open door, or a draft that says you're about to be loved by your squadmates?
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Martinus

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Quote
Originally posted by Zarax
Religion is a mere excuse in Ireland too right now, it's more another thing... All bow before the almighty $$$ God!

[color=66ff00]Actually it's always been about land; religion was just a simple way to 'identify the enemy'. It's well known that there are quite a few catholic businessmen who are pro-union and many many protestants who live in the republic but sectarians don't care, it's our side and their side.

Actually you'll see more religiously inclined bias with the hardline unionists (Ian Paisley and his mob.) the hardline nationalists have always been about nationalism.


I'm not vilifying terrorists here but if you look at the troubles overall you'll see that the IRA (that is the official IRA and not the splinter groups) always chose military targets whereas the loyalists just picked out any old nationalist (and continue to do so).

The thing that gets me most though is the BBC bias in reporting the news, republican terrorist attacks are headlined and emphasised yet loyalist attacks which are far more frequent and sinister are downplayed.
BBC worldwide is largely to blame for this, BBC NI can't really avoid the truth as it would be quickly called on it and tend to tell it like it is.


As for Putin; it'll probably just render another slap in the face for what's left of the communist way over there.
[/color]

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor

[color=66ff00]Actually it's always been about land; religion was just a simple way to 'identify the enemy'. It's well known that there are quite a few catholic businessmen who are pro-union and many many protestants who live in the republic but sectarians don't care, it's our side and their side.

Actually you'll see more religiously inclined bias with the hardline unionists (Ian Paisley and his mob.) the hardline nationalists have always been about nationalism.


I'm not vilifying terrorists here but if you look at the troubles overall you'll see that the IRA (that is the official IRA and not the splinter groups) always chose military targets whereas the loyalists just picked out any old nationalist (and continue to do so).

The thing that gets me most though is the BBC bias in reporting the news, republican terrorist attacks are headlined and emphasised yet loyalist attacks which are far more frequent and sinister are downplayed.
BBC worldwide is largely to blame for this, BBC NI can't really avoid the truth as it would be quickly called on it and tend to tell it like it is.
[/color]

Presumably you don't mean the PIRA since 1971, then.........which most people would count as the 'official' IRA, given its operational histroy and association with politics.

    * 1971: Three British soldiers are killed in a bomb attack in Belfast.
    * 1971: Catholic mother of ten, Jean McConville, is executed by the Provisional IRA for cushioning the head of a dying British soldier, although it is also claimed that she was informing the British Army of PIRA activities. The PIRA would deny any involvement in the killing until the 1990s, when it would acknowledge its action.
    * 21 July 1972: On 'Bloody Friday' 22 bombs kill 9 and seriously injure 130. 30 years later the PIRA would officially apologise for this set of attacks.
    * 1974: The Guildford pub bombing kills 19 and injures 182. The motive for the bombing was apparently that the pub attacked was frequented by soldiers. Four people, dubbed the 'Guildford Four', would be convicted for the bombing and imprisoned for life. The Guidford Four would claim police tortured them into confessing and 15 years later Lord Lane of the Court of Appeal would overturn their convictions noting "the investigating officers must have lied".
    * 1974: In the Birmingham Pub Bombings bombs in two pubs kill 19. The Birmingham Six' would be tried for this and convicted. Many years later, after new evidence of police fabrication and suppression of evidence, their convictions would be quashed. Appeals by the Birmingham Six that the real IRA bombers had admitted responsibility for the bombings were ignored.
    * 1975: The assassination of Ross McWhirter.
    * 1975: The Balcombe Street Siege.
    * 1976: A PIRA bomb kills the newly appointed British ambassador to the Republic of Ireland, resulting in the declaration of a State of Emergency in the Republic. The PIRA also threatens to kidnap or kill Irish cabinet ministers and the President of Ireland.
    * 1979: A PIRA bomb kills Earl Mountbatten of Burma, members of his family and a local child off the Irish coast. On the same day the PIRA kill 18 British soldiers at Narrow Water, near Newry, County Down; in an attack described by the British government as "a classic guerilla attack", they first plant one bomb, which kills 6, and then begin firing with sniper rifles at soldiers sheltered near a nearby gate where a second bomb explodes, killing 12 others. During an Irish visit Pope John Paul II calls for the PIRA campaign of violence to come to an end.
    * 1981: IRA prisoner Bobby Sands, imprisoned in connection with his involvement in an attack involving a bomb and subsequent gun battle, is elected Member of Parliament for the Northern Ireland constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone in a by-election. The moderate nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party decides not to run a candidate, and so split the nationalist vote, leaving Sands as the main nationalist candidate. Sands had been on a hunger strike for 'Prisoner of War' status for 41 days prior to being elected. He died 23 days later.
    * 1981: The PIRA kill Ulster Unionist Party Belfast MP Rev Robert Bradford along with the caretaker of a community centre. Irish Taoiseach Dr. Garret FitzGerald and former taoiseach Charles Haughey condemn the killings in Dáil Éireann. SDLP party leader John Hume accuses the Provisionals of waging a campaign of "sectarian genocide".
    * 10 October 1981: a bomb blast on Ebury Bridge Road in London kills 2 people and injures 39.
    * 26 October 1981: a bomb explodes at a Wimpy Bar in Oxford Street London killing one person.
    * 20 July 1982: In Hyde Park, a bomb bombs kills two members of the Household Cavalry performing ceremonial duties in the park. Seven of their horses are also killed. On the same day another device kills seven bandsmen the Royal Green Jackets as it explodes underneath the bandstand in Regents Park as they played music to 120 spectators.
    * 1983: A Harrods department store bomb planted by the PIRA during Christmas shopping season kills six (three police) and wounds 90.
    * 1984: In the Brighton hotel bombing a bomb in the Grand Hotel kills five in a failed attempt to assassinate members of the British cabinet, including Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.
    * 1987: In the Enniskillen 'Massacre' the PIRA bombing of a Remembrance Day parade kills eleven civilians and injures sixty-three. Among the dead is nurse Marie Wilson, whose father, Gordon Wilson, would go on to become a leading campaigner for an end to violence in Northern Ireland. The PIRA would later claim that their target was a colour guard of British soldiers. On Remembrance Day 1997 the leader of Sinn Féin, Gerry Adams, formally apologised for the bombing.
    * 1989: Ten Royal Marine bandsmen are killed and 22 injured in the bombing of their base in Deal in Kent.
    * 1990: Car bombings in Northern Ireland kill seven and wound 37.
    * 30 July 1990 Ian Gow MP is killed when a device explodes under his car as he is leaving his home.
    * 1990: A British Army Artillery officer is killed by the PIRA in Dortmund in the then West Germany.
    * 18 February 1991: A bomb explodes at Victoria Station. One man killed and 38 people injured.
    * 1991: Mortar attack on members of the British cabinet and the Prime Minister, John Major at the height of a huge security clampdown amid the Gulf War is launched by PIRA.
    * 1991: Two PIRA members are killed in St. Albans when their own bomb detonates prematurely.
    * 28 February 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge railway station injuring 29 people.
    * 10 April 1992: A large bomb explodes in St Mary Axe in the City of London killing three people and injuring 91. Many buildings are heavily damaged and the Baltic Exchange is completely destroyed.
    * 12 October 1992: A device explodes in the gents' toilet of the Sussex Arms public house in Covent Garden killing one person and injuring four others.
    * 1992: Eight Protestant builders are killed by a PIRA bomb on their way to work at an army base near Omagh.
    * 1993: A PIRA bomb in Warrington kills two children.
    * 1993: The PIRA detonates a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, which kills two and causes around £350m of damage, including the near destruction of St. Ethelburga's Bishopsgate.
    * 1993: A bomb at a fish and chip shop underneath a UDA office on the Protestant Shankill Road in Belfast detonates prematurely, killing ten, including the bomber and two children.
    * 1 September 1994: the PIRA declares the first of two cease-fires in the 1990s.
    * 10 February 1996: The PIRA ends its 1994 cease-fire, killing two in a bomb at the Canary Wharf towers in London.
    * 18 February 1996 an improvised high explosive device detonates prematurely on a bus, killing the PIRA operative transporting the device and injuring eight others.
    * 15 June 1996: The PIRA detonates a 5,000 lb (2,300 kg) bomb in Manchester, injuring 206 people and damaging seventy thousand square metres of retail and office space.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 10:35:39 am by 181 »

 

Offline vyper

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[q]always chose military targets[/q]

'Cause the Tory party conference in Brighton was a military target, and so was that little boy who's leg got blow off in a bomb in (I believe) the tower of London.

I'm sorry Maeg, but you touched a nerve there - I can't stand the IRA, I can't stand what they try and do, and how they use thier own people to purport more hatred.

The British Govt is not without it's stains in this matter, but at least we did away with the Black & Tans well before the worst of the IRA mainland attacks.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]No aldo, the PIRA is a splinter group (one of the most insidious given their long term activity). The 'official IRA' (about the only accurate name I can give them tbh) are largely responsible for the liberation of the republic and mediation between the more nasty splinter groups. You don't tend to hear about them so much. That's not to downplay their nastiness though as they have killed  innocents.

The hardcore splinter groups are by far the most sickening, between omagh, downright vague 'military targets' (the guy who cleaned a local police station for instance) and blatently terrorising targets (british mainland).

They tend to fundraise via pirated movies etc. incidently, for some reason they staunchly claim that they take no part in drugs trafficing  (doubtful given the money to be made).

Anyhow, I'm off the beaten track here. What I was trying to point out is that initally the IRA were labelled as terrorists back in the liberation of Ireland days and in my mind they were not the term freedom fighter was more accurate. In recent decades they deserve the title of terrorist and only maniacs would dispute that (and I can point you in the direction of a few sadly).
[/color]

 

Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]**** DRAFT IN FINLAND[/q]

Is that like a draft coming in an open door, or a draft that says you're about to be loved by your squadmates?


oh you sexy you *kiss* ((((((vyper)))))
lol wtf

 

Offline Flipside

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:nervous:

I think religion is often used as an handy excuse to build emnity between two sides.

'Hate them because they worship a different God and He wants you all dead. Oh, by the way, be sure and grab any Gold, valuables and slaves on your way out.'

People who are mentally unstable, such as terrorists, or the Grand Prix Priest, or that guy that climbed into a lions cage holding a bible the other day, tend to use religion as an excuse for their actions, but I don't really think of it as the reason.