Author Topic: The other side...  (Read 8786 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kamikaze

  • A Complacent Wind
  • 29
    • http://www.nodewar.com
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
SHE MADE HER CHOICE. NOW PAY THE PRICE.



Now if she is raped that is different. But not consensual sex.

All right this getting out of hand.....I am going to stop posting on this subject.


That's ridiculous, especially since many of the people who oppose abortion also oppose proper sexual education and prefer that abstinence bull****.

Plus, the girl is a greater loss than the unborn baby. The baby has no memories or experience worth quantifying. The girl has most likely lived 10+ years. You're wanting to wreck 10 years worth of life and experience just for some blob of tissue that can't even think properly?
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
Hey Kazan, try this...the law is wrong.


Try this concept: the law is _not_ wrong, because i was arguing from the fundamental axioms of rights not specific to any country

we just fortunately have (for the most part) the best setup legal system for protecting the rights of the people, so the two are in agreement
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Deepblue

  • Corporate Shill
  • 210
Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze

Plus, the girl is a greater loss than the unborn baby. The baby has no memories or experience worth quantifying. The girl has most likely lived 10+ years. You're wanting to wreck 10 years worth of life and experience just for some blob of tissue that can't even think properly?


You sir, have a very cold heart.

This was exactly the WRONG THING TO SAY if you wanted to validate your point of view. I have lost all respect for your position after seeing this. A "blob of tissue" that will become... something greater, this "blob" has a potential. It has no say in the matter and its existence is not its own fault. It is the fault of the girl and her counterpart, all actions have a consequence and they chose to take that risk. The risk of the girl dying however are extremely small while abortion is 100% fatal for the unborn baby.

What you are implying is universaly wrong.

The truth is a person would rather live for a brief time rather than never at all.

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
Deepblue: what he's saying isn't universally wrong - it's what it boils down to if you claim a fetus has rights (Which it doesn't, beecause it's not an individual)
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
IIRC Current medical guidelines - at least in the Uk, I presume in the US - prohibit abortion after the time  which the foetus develops consciousness.

Thus, any arguments against abortion before that legal deadline, are based around the existance of a soul.  As this is a clearly religious matter, and as laws have to be secular to be fair and just, there should not be a law to prohibit abortion full-stop.

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
IIRC Current medical guidelines - at least in the Uk, I presume in the US - prohibit abortion after the time  which the foetus develops consciousness.

Thus, any arguments against abortion before that legal deadline, are based around the existance of a soul.  As this is a clearly religious matter, and as laws have to be secular to be fair and just, there should not be a law to prohibit abortion full-stop.



:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Kamikaze

  • A Complacent Wind
  • 29
    • http://www.nodewar.com
Deepblue: Yeah, but an aborted baby can't "rather live" because their thoughts aren't that complex and they aren't going to develop to a state where they can think that.

The whole "potential" argument is silly. It has just as much potential to be a retarded, useless human that can't think very well for its whole entire life. It might end up leading a life as a homeless person and dying on the street. By your "a person would rather live" sort of logic a person would rather be unborn than live and die in a pitiful, stupid, absolutely unenjoyable life like that.

Also, what about having sex? Many sperm are sacrificed for a single sperm that eventually becomes a fetus (these sperm have "potential" too). Is this murder?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2004, 07:08:32 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 
 

Offline Deepblue

  • Corporate Shill
  • 210
How do you determine what is and what is not an individual? Are you claiming that you have the supreme ability to decide what deserves to live and what deserves to die? There is no justice left in the world if that is what you think. No one can say what something is, only that it came to be.

  

Offline Deepblue

  • Corporate Shill
  • 210
Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
Deepblue: Yeah, but an aborted baby can't "rather live" because their thoughts aren't that complex and they aren't going to develop to a state where they can think that.

The whole "potential" argument is silly. It has just as much potential to be a retarded, useless human that can't think very well for its whole entire life. It might end up leading a life as a homeless person and dying on the street. By your "a person would rather live" sort of logic a person would rather be unborn than live and die in a pitiful, stupid, absolutely unenjoyable life like that.

Also, what about having sex? Many sperm are sacrificed for a single sperm that eventually becomes a fetus (these sperm have "potential" too). Is this murder?


Wrong. I would rather live a horrible life than not live life at all. While misory abounds, there is no person who has lived that can truthfully say they have not found joy in there lives, their very existence. Your other argument is silly, this is not a concious act but rather a fact of nature. You cannot stop the sun from burning out and destroying all life in this solar system. You cannot hold somthing responsible for its actions if it does not have free agency.

 

Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
  • 29
Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
Are you claiming that you have the supreme ability to decide what deserves to live and what deserves to die?


What, like Bush? Or Clinton, Reagan, Bush 41, Carter, Nixon and in fact almost every US president in the past 100 years?

Who has more right over life and death: a parent over their own unborn, unconscious fetus (baby, call it what you will), or a politician over the lives of people, fully grown and conscious people, halfway around the world?

You can't really be against abortion and still think that politiiians can decide life and death without running into a contradiction.

 

Offline Kamikaze

  • A Complacent Wind
  • 29
    • http://www.nodewar.com
Deepblue: How about masturbation then? Is that murder? What about menstrual cycles? By *not* having sex while ovulating a woman is, by conscious inaction, killing "potential humans".

I don't care if you'd rather live a horrible life rather than die since you clearly haven't lived the kind of life I'm describing (by definition, since you're saying you can find joy in a life however horrible). Also, If that's all the strength you need behind an argument, *I* would rather have been aborted if living meant a totally joyless life spent in a cardboard box for a week before dying.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Deepblue

  • Corporate Shill
  • 210
"You cannot stop the sun from burning out and destroying all life in this solar system. You cannot hold somthing responsible for its actions if it does not have free agency."

:rolleyes:

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
How do you determine what is and what is not an individual? Are you claiming that you have the supreme ability to decide what deserves to live and what deserves to die? There is no justice left in the world if that is what you think. No one can say what something is, only that it came to be.


a fetus that cannot live outside of it's mother without the asistance of advanced medical sciences is not an individual

for obvious reasons
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 
*taps micraphone*

Tin Can reporting from the hectic boards of HLP. Kazan has just finished a counter attack and is still mustering his forces. The enemy retreats to re-think their strategy, and all must continue!

In short, Kazan has WMD's. We must destroy him!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
lol Tin Can

how are you going to halt the advance of the Unstoppable Force of Reality? :P
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 
Meet the Colossus! The largest space faring warship ever constructed!

 

Offline Deepblue

  • Corporate Shill
  • 210
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan


a fetus that cannot live outside of it's mother without the asistance of advanced medical sciences is not an individual

for obvious reasons


We cannot live outside the Earth and its resources. Are we not individuals?

(warming up Sathanas BFreds)

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
Deepblue: that's a false analogy and you very well know it --

1) your statement is false: all the things we need to live can be found elsewhere (and artificially combined) -- infact probabilities say that there is event a planet that's natural condition matches those


2nd) the earth is not a lifeform that we are _PART_ of

3rd) we have our own, personal, conscious thought
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
If you people can't see the difference between an egg/sperm and a fertilized egg, there's something wrong with you.  These "menstruation/masturbation" arguments are just straw men.  The real issue comes down to the fertilized egg.  If natural processes are not interfered with, in nine months a fully developed human being will be born, without any help from exterior forces.  Whether or not the fetus, at any stage of development, is capable of rational thought/surviving outside of the uterus is irrelevant.  The point is, destroying it prevents that development from reaching its completion.  By the way, we have a word for stopping the process of life: murder.  How's that for logic, Kazan? :rolleyes:

And enough with the whole, "Better to be dead than to live life as an unwanted child."  Pardon my French, but that is the biggest crock of s*** I've ever heard.  Once again, a straw man to help abortion advocates maintain their sense of moral superiority.  No human being can determine, from present conditions, the future quality of an unborn child's life.  It's an impossibility.  How can you stand there in cold blood and say that ending a life is better than living a life, no matter the quality?  Any person's circumstances can change; someone born from the lowest means may go on to be one of the most influential people in the world's history.  And yet, you seem to be perfectly willing to dispose of all of that potential to protect some ficticious "right to choose."  Guess what:  that right to choice does not extend to harming someone else, "potential life" or not.  Go ahead; keep denying the truth.  Ever wonder why the women involved in Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton are now completely against abortion?  Ever wonder why Planned Parenthood was founded by a woman who campaigned for eugenics?  Ever wonder at the testimony of so many ex-abortion industry workers, at the lies hurled at the patients?  Hmmm, maybe these people have figured it out.  Keep deluding yourself there; hopefully someday you'll gain a shred of humanity.