[KappaWing]

Ah i see.

"For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life."

That must have been referring to pre-subspace era. They started arming their ships and encountering other races after they discovered subspace. I think I got it now.

[karajorma]

Since the FAQ v2.0  is ready to go online yet here's the Ancients Monologues in full for you to discuss. I threw in the comm brief and ending while I was at it.

Ancients 1
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundries.

Command Brief
Good morning pilots. I'm going to get right to it. The Shivan forces are sprouting up everywhere and it's no secret that our front lines are taking a beating. As you probably know no one has been able to communicate with them and Terran Intelligence has no leads on their origins or their motives. On the upside their shielding technology seems to be working just fine for us. By this afternoon all fighters stationed on the Galetea will have been fitted with them. Try to keep them intact, alright?
The cruiser Tyranis is suspected to be the source of command for the shivans in this sector. It's here in the Ikeya system and we suspect it's low on fighters and supplies due to its recent attack runs. We have reason to believe it will soon jump to another system to resupply. We don't know where it will jump to but there is only one subspace node out of Ikeya and we intend to blockade it.
In the intrests of learing more about the slippery bastards we're going to attempt something bold. The capture of the Tyranis. If this goes off it will give us the opportunity to examine Shivan technology up close, and bag a few live Shivans in the process. In order to do this we will conduct a series of missions designed to take out the cruiser's escorts and defences. Time to chip away at the boulder, people. That is all. Report to your flight leaders for your orders.
Dismissed.

Ancients 2
When the destoyers came for us we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They like the others. Strange, hidious, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others. They did not die.
We made our first retreat. We could forego one system. We left it to the destroyers and went elsewhere. But they followed, they hunted us. They followed us when we retreated, discovered where we lived.
For a long time we did not know why they chased us. They were no ordinary enemy. They did not seek our territory, our technology, our resources.
Now we know our crime was sin.

Ancients 3
And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestial species.
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.

Ancients 4
There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.
We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace the cosmic destroyers took note.
When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us

Ancients 5
There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.
We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt.
We have the knowledge but not the means. And so this is our legacy.
In subspace they can not use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.

EndGame
I know why the ancient ones were destroyed and I know what they knew. I know that if not for the Shivans they would have perished long before. Without the Shivans someone would have discovered the Ancients in their infancy, and eliminated them, just surely as they eliminated countless billions of others.
I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The shivans are the great destroyers but they are also the great preservers. That is why when we moved into space there was no one powerful enough to kill us. Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.
In the vasudan war we learned how to adapt.
We learned how to study our enemy.
We learned how to overcome.
We learned how to survive.
And so we did.
All the jump points from Earth are gone. But the Shivans can rebuild them. I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime. Such is liberation.

[dan87uk]

you are forgetting, the vasudan scientists discovered the flail at laramis (former Ancients Space) so perhaps they had some advanced weaponry, but perhaps hadn't made the weapons available 'fleet-wide' because they didn't really need to, then when the shivans came they were dazed and confused so still didnt get the chance to do so. Also we must assume the shivan-ancient war was on a huge scale because of the vast size of the Ancients' empire, can you imagine the sheer amount of ships that would have been fighting in all of those systems? the shivans would have needed to bring more than 1 Lucifer Sized fleet to destroy these Ancients, they probably would have bought a few lucifer fleets, possibly the LF that attacked Terrans and Vasudans was a remnant from this war and simply patrolling Ancients former space, but it took them so long because they were not really in any rush and their space was huge so it took them time to swing back round to Ross128....the fact that only the Lucifer had beam weaponry can be explained by there lack of contact with the main shivan systems (because there on patrol on border worlds)

[karajorma]

I've noticed that when I play Rome : Total War, Civilisation or any other strategy game that my wars tend to end up being conducted by my oldest troop types simply because of the time and effort involved in getting the newer stuff to the front lines.
 If I face a really tough opponent I tend to try to keep them busy with these older forces while I gather up a force of more modern units and push them to the front.

Now we have no idea how big the Shivan Empire is but if it takes weeks or months to get their better ships into position it could explain a lot of what happened in FS1 and FS2. As for why it takes so long, we have no idea how quick subspace travel between galaxies is.

As Dan says the Lucifer fleet could be an old fleet guarding the fringes of Shivan territory. What would be worrying is if the Saths didn't come from the best of the best (i.e home fleet) but maybe a local area with a slightly newer army than the rest of the surrounding space

[KappaWing]

Sounds very plausible, but I think the Shivans used Sathani (or something bigger) to kill the ancients. If the war was truly fought on that massive of a scale, the Shivans probably wouldent bother with lucifers and they'd send in the heavy artillery.

But then again, the Ancient's weaponry was probably so poor that the Shivans may not have even bothered deploying the Sathanas fleet.

Dan's theory sounds good, though. And I do believe that the Sathanas fleet wasn't exactly the best the Shivans had to offer, as we don't know exactly how large the Shivans empire is. It must be at least the size of a galaxy if they were to mop up the ancients that easily. For a galactic size empire, it would be frightening to imagine a Shivan home-system. My vision is that the Shivan's home system is centered around a red giant star, with a Shivan installation (and I'm talking a massive one) actually built into the star. The Shivans then use the energy from this star to  grow their ships organicly. The star is surrounded by death-star sized installations (referring to inferno's SI Hera). Surrounded by massive warships easily over 900k long. (IIRC Volition mentioned something about ships being so large that they had their own gravity well.) Smaller warships, (still more massive than the obsolete and old-fashoned sathanas class) patrol the outskirts of the system. Over 200 of these warships are eac about 40k long. The smallest waships in the system would be about 20k long (refer to Inferno's SSJ Gigas). The surrounding systems would be equally defended. When as Dan mentioned, the outer rim of the galaxy would be dotted with tiny, insignifficant fleets such as the Sathanas fleet. Such an idea would be quite frightining.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by KappaWing
Sounds very plausible, but I think the Shivans used Sathani (or something bigger) to kill the ancients. If the war was truly fought on that massive of a scale, the Shivans probably wouldent bother with lucifers and they'd send in the heavy artillery.

If the Ancient's empire had already begun expanding outside of their galaxy then the Shivans we would have seen would probably have been the ships involved in wiping out the last pockets of resistance. In other words the crappy older units that could be spared to go wondeing about killing Ancients rather than doing whatever it is that the shivans do

[KappaWing]

I think that once the Shivans blasted the Ancients out of what is now GTVA space with their Sathani, they recalled their Sathani to their central systems. By the time the Sathanas fleet reached Shivan HQ, they reported that they killed the Ancients (which they did). The Shivans then sent a very small scouting party (Lucifer fleet) to mosey around in the area and crush any new developing civilizations.

When they came through Ross 128, the shivans were like "wtf?! I thought we killed these guys already!" After the Lucifer fleet was destroyed, shivan command was thinking "wtf!? Our scouting party didn't return!" Shivan HQ then sent a nearby Sathanas fleet (probably a few systems back from the binary system (into the lions den) to investigate the dissapearance of the LF. They sent in a destroyer (SD Ravana) to scout the area ahead and make sure they weren't running into a trap.

As souts were patrolling the nebula past GD, they detected a sudden subspace reading. Someone opened the Ancient's portal! Now the Shivans were sure that they were facing their old Nemesis. The Shivans first sent in small vessels and 1 Sathanas to crush these "Ancients". After their Sathanas was destroyed, they got really pissed and sent in 80 of them.

As they reached Capella, they decided that the best move was to destroy Capella in order to test out their new weapon. Before, they could destroy planets, but now they wanted to see if they could destroy a star. They figured that then would be a perfect time to experiment, as the system after a supernova would provide a battle advantage for the Shivans. Post supernova systems are probably really hot. Shivan ships can withstand tremendous heat while terran hulls would melt. This would prevent the GTVA from converging on the Shivan territory, while the Shivans are free to strike.

The Shivans then blew up Capella. They used the explosion to generate subspace energy to get the hell outta there. They probably jumped from Capella to GD, when they returned a few minutes later. They found no jump nodes leading out of the system. Once again they were thinking "wtf!? I coulda swore there were two nodes outta this system!" They then, realizing that they were blocked off, trudged back to Shivan HQ with the bad news.

My prediction for FS3,
Shivans get REALLY mad and send in uber huge Megajuggernauts from their core system, find a way into Terran controlled systems, and KILL THE TERRANS AND VASUDANS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!! DIE DIE GTVA! DDDIIIEEE!!!!!:nervous:

Yeah so that's what I think will happen.

[Kie99]

You mean like Inferno?

[KappaWing]

Yeah, sorta. Except that the gate to Sol is never reopened. And the GTVA is completley wiped out. Freespace 4 will deal with the civil war struggles in Sol, interrupted untimley by the Shivans. The Shivans will blow up Sol with Juggernauts and the Terrans will be extinct. That way, Freespace would be a story of just another developing race crushed by the Shivans. Just like Bosch predicted in his first monologue. It would be nice for a video game series not ending with the good guys coming out on top as they always do.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by KappaWing
My vision is that the Shivan's home system is centered around a red giant star, with a Shivan installation (and I'm talking a massive one) actually built into the star. The Shivans then use the energy from this star to  grow their ships organicly. The star is surrounded by death-star sized installations (referring to inferno's SI Hera). Surrounded by massive warships easily over 900k long. (IIRC Volition mentioned something about ships being so large that they had their own gravity well.) Smaller warships, (still more massive than the obsolete and old-fashoned sathanas class) patrol the outskirts of the system. Over 200 of these warships are eac about 40k long. The smallest waships in the system would be about 20k long (refer to Inferno's SSJ Gigas). The surrounding systems would be equally defended. When as Dan mentioned, the outer rim of the galaxy would be dotted with tiny, insignifficant fleets such as the Sathanas fleet. Such an idea would be quite frightining.

Shivan installation built into the STAR? Shivans have installations on the surface od a SUN? Well, I gues 10000000000 degrees doesn't bother them or their OGRANIC ships... it's not like burn't organic matter can't regenerate...

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by KappaWing
I think that once the Shivans blasted the Ancients out of what is now GTVA space with their Sathani, they recalled their Sathani to their central systems. By the time the Sathanas fleet reached Shivan HQ, they reported that they killed the Ancients (which they did). The Shivans then sent a very small scouting party (Lucifer fleet) to mosey around in the area and crush any new developing civilizations.

When they came through Ross 128, the shivans were like "wtf?! I thought we killed these guys already!" After the Lucifer fleet was destroyed, shivan command was thinking "wtf!? Our scouting party didn't return!" Shivan HQ then sent a nearby Sathanas fleet (probably a few systems back from the binary system (into the lions den) to investigate the dissapearance of the LF. They sent in a destroyer (SD Ravana) to scout the area ahead and make sure they weren't running into a trap.

As souts were patrolling the nebula past GD, they detected a sudden subspace reading. Someone opened the Ancient's portal! Now the Shivans were sure that they were facing their old Nemesis. The Shivans first sent in small vessels and 1 Sathanas to crush these "Ancients". After their Sathanas was destroyed, they got really pissed and sent in 80 of them.

As they reached Capella, they decided that the best move was to destroy Capella in order to test out their new weapon. Before, they could destroy planets, but now they wanted to see if they could destroy a star. They figured that then would be a perfect time to experiment, as the system after a supernova would provide a battle advantage for the Shivans. Post supernova systems are probably really hot. Shivan ships can withstand tremendous heat while terran hulls would melt. This would prevent the GTVA from converging on the Shivan territory, while the Shivans are free to strike.

The Shivans then blew up Capella. They used the explosion to generate subspace energy to get the hell outta there. They probably jumped from Capella to GD, when they returned a few minutes later. They found no jump nodes leading out of the system. Once again they were thinking "wtf!? I coulda swore there were two nodes outta this system!" They then, realizing that they were blocked off, trudged back to Shivan HQ with the bad news.

My prediction for FS3,
Shivans get REALLY mad and send in uber huge Megajuggernauts from their core system, find a way into Terran controlled systems, and KILL THE TERRANS AND VASUDANS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!! DIE DIE GTVA! DDDIIIEEE!!!!!:nervous:

Yeah so that's what I think will happen.

So... little... justification

[KappaWing]

It doesent bother them at all actually. IMHO Shivan ships are made out of artificially grown material that only melts at extremely high temperatures (more than that of a star). This could be true bacause there is no canon evidence of Shivans ever having a temperature tolerance limit. The Shivan bodies themselves are made out of elements unknown to Terrans or Vasudans. Obviously if a GTVA vessel approached this central installation, it would surley melt due to the temperatures.

There is canon evidence, however, of Shivan bodies and Shivan alloys being made out of highly advanced material.

If you believe the Shivan Manefesto story, there is even furher evidence to back this up. The fact that Shivans come from subspace which there is no temperature at all explains why temperature means nothing to them or their materials which they grow.

[V] never gave any hint at what a Shivan home system may be like, so this is all open to speculation.

[dan87uk]

i agree that the good guys should lose at least once, like a battle of the line and your pilot is supposd to die in the last mission along with most of the fleet in one big battle (in a cutscene rather than ingame) but ultimatly there are some survivors who run away etc etc, then fs4 would be the solution on beating back/negotiating truce with the shivans.

[vyper]

[q]negotiating truce with the shivans.[/q]

*walks in*
*beats dan senseless then shoves his head up his own arse*
*walks out*

Never say that again.

[KappaWing]

Ummm.... That was uncalled for.

But I'm afraid that I have to agree with vyper on that one. Shivans don't like truces. Why would the Shivans want a truce when they could just blast the Terrans to smithereens? Usually truces only happen when both sides are equal, or else the dominant side has no reason to approve a truce.

Secondly, Shivans don't make truces.

But I like your cutscene idea, just take out the part about the survivors. There needs to be an ending at some point or another. But then again, maybe it would be better to leave the ending open for a more imaginative approach besides "Shivans warp in! Kill GTVA! Die! Die! Die!"

I would be happy with any ending as long as the GTVA loses, or else the series would become too cliche.

[dan87uk]

Originally posted by vyper
[q]negotiating truce with the shivans.[/q]

*walks in*
*beats dan senseless then shoves his head up his own arse*
*walks out*

Never say that again.

thanks for that, as i said, 'theory' and u never know by the time a 4th fs was to come along.....lol obviously it wont come anyway, but that's not the point

[KappaWing]

What!!! No FS4!!! You're kidding me, right?

[dan87uk]

Please tell me you are being sarcastic Kappa, there isn't going to be a *that which cannot be named* let alone an FS4:blah:

[Kie99]

Originally posted by dan87uk


thanks for that, as i said, 'theory' and u never know by the time a 4th fs was to come along.....lol obviously it wont come anyway, but that's not the point

Generally on forums it is considered rude if you use abbreaviations like 'U' or 'Da' instead of you or the.  Abbreviations like IIRC, AFAIK, HLP, WTF, LOL are OK but grammar is your friend.

[KappaWing]

No way man! I coulda swore they were releasing Freespace x (with x being an integer 4>x>2) sometime next month!

Oh and btw, yes I'm being sarcastic.