[aldo_14]

A hive mind doesn't entail a caste system; but rather a single collective consciousness where the organisms within can act in a unified purpose as if they were a single 'mind'.  

I don't believe that, for example, ant colonies are technically hive minds; however, IIRC there is no 'order' system anyways, the ant colony behaviour is instinctual rather than controlled.

[karajorma]

Actually the term hive mind is commonly used to describe a collective mind.

For instance

[aldo_14]

Where do you think i got the definition from?

[karajorma]

I was answering Trashman Didn't spot your answer

[AlphaOne]

Hive minds you say. Oki then.
I saw someone post that the hive mind was able to send orders to the LF but not get eny reading back. Puting aside the nonesense of a hive mind in my opinion, could someone explain to me why the hivemind could not receive eny info back.And why does a hivemind need comunications devices when from what we know (scifi) a hivemind travels instanteneus through space faster then enything else!

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by AlphaOne
Hive minds you say. Oki then.
I saw someone post that the hive mind was able to send orders to the LF but not get eny reading back. Puting aside the nonesense of a hive mind in my opinion, could someone explain to me why the hivemind could not receive eny info back.And why does a hivemind need comunications devices when from what we know (scifi) a hivemind travels instanteneus through space faster then enything else!

Eh?  That's total rubbish; there's absolutely nothing I've seen that even implies hivemind structures always have to have instaneous communications.   Just look at worker ants; they only communicate locally within their colony (using pheromones), not globally across other colonies.  Or even, to use a sci-fi example, Xenomorphs from the Alien series; no need for pan-galactic communications.

Sci-fi is, after all, science fiction.

The assumption made is that subspace allows instantaneous communication, and what is said is that for some reason the Shivans were transmitting (deliberately or by reflex), yet not able to receive, due to the loss of the Lucifer as a relay station or C&C.  I don't buy it myself.

[Kie99]

Also even if the Xenomorphs/Ants/Bees/Whatever Hive mind example you want to bring up communicate instantaneously that's no reason to think the Shivans would do the same.

However I don't believe the hive mind theory because, IMO there is no reasonable evidence for it.

[KappaWing]

could someone explain to me why the hivemind could not receive eny info back.And why does a hivemind need comunications devices when from what we know (scifi) a hivemind travels instanteneus through space faster then enything else!

Argh! Someone already said that same thing too! Please look at all the posts before posting yourself. For the sake of conviencence, I will repeat what I said earlier...

IMO, the hive mind communicates via transmitters of signals. The transmitter on the central hive is far more powerful than the transmitter on the Lucifer, as the power and clarity of the transmissions deteriorate with distance. The hive mind's transmitter was powerful enough to send transmissions to the Lucifer, but the Lucifer's transmitter was not powerful enough to send transmissions back. However, my earlier theory also mentioned a lower power hive aboard the Lucifer which controlled the Lucifer fleet. When the Lucifer was destroyed. I think the Shivans acted very unco-ordinated and turned individualistic.

AlphaOne, Please read the entire thread before your next post.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

you mean kind of like our own pilots do?  They follow orders, unless attacked, then they fight back.  Is this indicative of what we are referring to as a hive mind?  All of our ai act the same.  Are we hive minded?  Now a separate ia table foir each race would be something interesting, because then we could play with it more.  but on the other hand, why bother when we can add categories to the one we have.

[WMCoolmon]

Originally posted by TrashMan



Ugh..what you are describing is a collective mind, not a hive mind.

A hive mind = drones take orders from one hiuger in the chainn, they never flinch, they don't think about them, they just DO those orders.
A hive mind places no importance on individul life, it focuses on numbers.

Sounds a lot like shivans, doesn't it?

A 'hive mind', ie collective consciousness, would seem to focus less on numbers and more on outthinking its opponents and preserving all the life it can. Because every single organism would empathize with every other organism. Pain felt by one would be transmitted to the collective mind. Not to mention that the hive mind would have to be able to continue to grow with the organisms without losing efficiency.

Humans, with our ability to desensitize ourselves to the pain of others and our limited consciousness, seem far more likely to put more emphasis on outnumbering the enemy and winning by sheer attrition.

[TrashMan]

No..

A collective mind is the one where communication is practicly instantanious between all of it's members - think b0rg (alltough the b0rg shows allso some hive mind as there are no idividuals really, so it might not be a good reference)

So even better, think humanity where everyones thoughts were shared.

The Hive Mind is a rigid, but efficient command structure - look at ants/bees.
The drones exist soley to obey the queen, to serve the hive and the most common tactic is superoirity by numbers.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

The Shivans are very well trained, and very brave and loyal.  Now it sounds like they would exhibit exactly the behavior that we have seen in their fighters and bombers.

How do we know that the Shivans sacrificed themselves at Capella?  How do we know that Shivan Command didn't sacrifice them?  How do we know that the Capellan supernova wasn't a mistake that they made, and that it was not on purpose?  Far too many assumptions on what we do not know.  You can always think up reasons for the behavior of an unknown so that it fits your hypothesis.  That's my point.  If you want to ignore it and run off on rhetoric, and discuss the difference between a hive mind and a collective one, feel free.  No where can you prove that either of those are correct, so i don't see why everyone wants to act as if it were a fact.  It isn't a fact.  I don't much care what you call it, hive or collective, it doesn't matter, because when this thread falls to the wayside, one thing will remain constant.....none of this is a fact from canon. People need to stop stating things as if it IS a fact.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
No..

A collective mind is the one where communication is practicly instantanious between all of it's members - think b0rg (alltough the b0rg shows allso some hive mind as there are no idividuals really, so it might not be a good reference)

So even better, think humanity where everyones thoughts were shared.

The Hive Mind is a rigid, but efficient command structure - look at ants/bees.
The drones exist soley to obey the queen, to serve the hive and the most common tactic is superoirity by numbers.

Hive mind is a collective consciousness; one mind, across many members (or so it appears) - check the wikipedia definition.  There's no requirement for a command structure any more than your brain needs someone else to tell it what to do.

There's also no need for instaneous communication; if you consider ants as a hive mind, they don't need or use it (lay pheremone scents, which rely upon another ant encountering them, bees do dances which have to be observed and take time to perform).

 And there's no evidence AFAIK that there is a central 'controller' of ant or other insect colonies (no overmind, i.e. no control by the queen), just instinctual behaviour.  So the ants / bees / whatever don't 'serve' the queen, they just follow a behaviour program designed to support the queen, because this is necessary for survival of their species.

Also, I don't think turning 'individualistic' is evidence of a hive mind; it's evidence of the loss of a central tactical control centre and organisation, and possibly that the Shivans - whatever their mental setup - were used to operating in a highly regimented fleet.

[WMCoolmon]

Also, I don't think turning 'individualistic' is evidence of a hive mind; it's evidence of the loss of a central tactical control centre and organisation, and possibly that the Shivans - whatever their mental setup - were used to operating in a highly regimented fleet.

The Shivans seemed to have pretty good strategic coordination. It could easily be that the Shivans had their Command/Communications system entirely on board the Lucifer, since it was 'invulnerable' to other ships and therefore the least likely to get destroyed or disabled somehow.

When the Lucifer was lost, command fell to the Demons, but perhaps every capital ship had been given orders directly from the Lucifer. This gave the Shivan fleets incredible flexibility, but with the loss of the Lucifer, the Demons were forced to divvy up the ships themselves.

And of course we're dealing with an entirely separate race here. It may be that power would truly be a duty, rather than a privilege, for them and every ship of rank was reluctant to take command.

[aldo_14]

Or the GTVA had already taken out their reserve C&C.......  (took out the Eva, didn't they?  I think that travelled with the Lucy in Playing Judas(?))

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Hive mind is a collective consciousness; one mind, across many members (or so it appears) - check the wikipedia definition.  There's no requirement for a command structure any more than your brain needs someone else to tell it what to do.

There's also no need for instaneous communication; if you consider ants as a hive mind, they don't need or use it (lay pheremone scents, which rely upon another ant encountering them, bees do dances which have to be observed and take time to perform).

 And there's no evidence AFAIK that there is a central 'controller' of ant or other insect colonies (no overmind, i.e. no control by the queen), just instinctual behaviour.  So the ants / bees / whatever don't 'serve' the queen, they just follow a behaviour program designed to support the queen, because this is necessary for survival of their species.

Also, I don't think turning 'individualistic' is evidence of a hive mind; it's evidence of the loss of a central tactical control centre and organisation, and possibly that the Shivans - whatever their mental setup - were used to operating in a highly regimented fleet.

I don't give a damn about thew wikipedia and the definition one of you wrote in. I accept only the real woirld definition.

And no, I didn't say anywhere that in the hive mind there is instantanius communication or they are all brain-controled by the queen.. Alltough there clearly is a command structure.. and ants/bees without their queen are lost..and the colonies perish

[StratComm]

Only because they can't reproduce.  What aldo's pointing out is the real-world definition; what you're thinking of is not a "hive mind", it is a collective conscenseness.  Which doesn't exist in the "real worl," therefore has no real-world definition.  Hive minded, simply put, means supporting the leader caste above all else, even one's own life, instinctually rather than through some kind of conditioning.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Alltough there clearly is a command structure.. and ants/bees without their queen are lost..and the colonies perish

Actually that's a load of crap. If you do a genetic study on the bees in a colony you'll find that the queen is actually a brood mare simply used to churn out worker after worker. She's not at all in command of the hive in any sense at all.

In fact the workers are using her to make more of themselves. If the queen dies they feed royal jelly to another worker and make themselves another queen.


While we're at it Trashman you can argue all you like that you're right and the english language is wrong but the fact is that the term hive mind is commonly used to describe a collective conciousness whether you like it or not.

Any further arguments that you're correct are being redirected to null.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan


I don't give a damn about thew wikipedia and the definition one of you wrote in. I accept only the real woirld definition.

And no, I didn't say anywhere that in the hive mind there is instantanius communication or they are all brain-controled by the queen.. Alltough there clearly is a command structure.. and ants/bees without their queen are lost..and the colonies perish

Command structure is a control structure.  It denotes a caste - or parallel - structure where individuals or groups have a precedence. Either way, it means there is not a collective consciousness across the species, because if there were then there would be no need for an overseeing entity; the 'oversight' would be part of the thought processes of the entire collective consciousness.

And the wikipedia definition....well, put it this way.  The wikipedia is an open source of information, edited and moderated by thousands of people; I think I'd consider its definition reliable.

I'll point out again that a hive mind is not an insect colony; a hive mind, as pointed out, is a single shared consciousness, one mind formed by many individual entities.  That's why it's called a hive mind.

What TM is pointing out, is a hive controlled by an overmind (leader or leadership caste) of some sort.  And in the case of insects, there is no need for control; it's purely instinctual behaviour.  The ants serve the queen (etc for other insects), because if they did not then the colony would die out.  Any insects or colonies which did not have this instinctual behaviour, would die out as a result of natural selection.  

And if this intrinsic behaviour is built around a single reproductive female (IIRC ant females will fly out to found new colonies, at which point they shed their wings and become queens), then of course that instinct will fail when the queen dies.  Particularly if there is not other reproductive female or male to keep up the colony population.

[AlphaOne]

Well before we go eny further I would just like to remember evryone that the shivans we see today are NOT repeat are NOT theyr natural form. They seem to be enhanced with a powerfull armour and weapon..remember....?  

So that leaves but one question who or what made them this way because I doubt they would of evolved this way if not for somoene elses intervention.  For that matter did the shivans ever evolve during the thousands of years they were out there...???

No they staied the same which at least in mi perspective is very very interesting!