[aldo_14]

(@Lib re WW2 reconstruction)

One thing you are forgetting, I think, is that both Germany and Japan still had an existing governmental structure after WW2 (including police and army); in the case of Japan, the US resisted calls to try Emperor Hirohito for war crimes in order to use him to pacify the Japanese public , and in Germany it was Armiral Karl donitz (for all of 20 days) and then Konrad Adenauer who became Chancellor after Hitlers death.  Likewise in the case of Italy.

So.... you're talking about wiping out governmental structures, but more of that was done in Iraq than during WW2, at least in terms of aving some co-operative proxy government.  Iraq is probably a classic example of a post-war power vacuum - the looting being the most blatant example - and as such it's created a fermenting pot for crime and violence (including the insurgency), as well as paralysing the likes of power and hospital services.

NB: oh, and I don't think, IIRC, the Marshall plan had all the rebuilding contracts pre-emptively awarded to US firms without the government of the countries being consulted.  That sort of thing can cause resentment.

EDIT;

Originally posted by Liberator
It is a problem that there are US soldiers dying daily.  However, there are many times that number of Iraqis dying from the same bombs and raids.  What needs to happen is a full size high impact media campaign to educate the Iraqis that we are there to help them, and if they are unhappy with us being there, the fastest way to get rid of us is to turn over the bastards that are killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters.

What makes you think they'd trust you to do so?  I doubt many Iraqis would naive enough to change opinion based on the media after living for so many years under a propagandistic dictatorship.

[Gank]

There is a big media campaign in Iraq saying exactly that, its not working because of stuff like this:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/050228/usnews/28road.htm

Btw theres some very good admins on here who stay impartial even when the topics being discussed involve their beliefs, countries and ways of life, people should just leave the moderating to them.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

do you mean that we should all just shut up and tolerate the flaming?

[Unknown Target]

Wow. Just wow.
One person (Liberator) managed to turn a civil discussion into an all-out brawl.

[WeatherOp]

It isn't a brawl, not yet anyways. And all I see is mostly debate, not much flames yet.

[Gank]

See the wee button that says report this post to a moderator? Its there for exactly this purpose. If you feel somebodys insulting you without grounds use it. I guess really it all boils down to the individual, I work on building sites and hear so much bad language that it doesnt even register anymore so getting called a few names isnt going to bother me.

[Unknown Target]

It's not the actual names, it's the fact that people are being called names when it's completely uncessery in a civil discussion such as this.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

agreed UT.  and for what it's worth Gank, yeah the button is there, but instead of using it, wouldn't it be better if it wasn't needed?  it's not hard to have a debate without flaming, we've proven that.

[Gank]

Well I just think that if there wasnt a few people making such a big deal about it, it wouldnt be such a big deal.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

and i think that if people would debate sensibly and not resort to the immature actions of flaming there wouldn't be a problem.  Do you personally think that watching threads get ruined by flaming is a good thing?  I am asking.  I am like you in one respect.  i don't acre if i get flamed, it doesn't matter, i will go happily along and mod freespace.  What does bother me though, is watching an intelligent debate be thrown to the wayside for no reason except for the simple fact that some people cannot debate without arguing.

i like to think that right now we are debating and not arguing this point.

my personal feelings are simple, if a person is adult enough to discuss politics, then they should be adult enough to do so without having to become a child about it when someone disagrees.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Liberator


It is a problem that there are US soldiers dying daily.  However, there are many times that number of Iraqis dying from the same bombs and raids.  What needs to happen is a full size high impact media campaign to educate the Iraqis that we are there to help them, and if they are unhappy with us being there, the fastest way to get rid of us is to turn over the bastards that are killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters.
[/size]

So, you're working on the assumption that the US is there to help the Iraqis, and that the insurgents are the true enemies?

Seems a bit of a stretch.

[Liberator]

To be perfectly honest Rictor, I don't know why we are in Iraq.  Most of the excuses we were given have been largely disproven or at the most proven to be of secondary importance.

The fact of the matter is we are there now, regardless of anything else.

And it is now our duty to see it through to the end.  The bitter end if necessary.

There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies,  throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression, when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future.   Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Liberator
To be perfectly honest Rictor, I don't know why we are in Iraq.  Most of the excuses we were given have been largely disproven or at the most proven to be of secondary importance.

The fact of the matter is we are there now, regardless of anything else.

For once, I agree with you. *SHOCK*

And it is now our duty to see it through to the end.  The bitter end if necessary.[/b]

Ok, I have to ask. The bitter end for who?

There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies,  throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression,

[/b]
No, but you have to realize that they believe in things just like you and I do. they only act on it in a far more extreme manner. i'm certainly not condoning their actions and their methods even less, but in a weird and sick way, it is understandable. Especially when you look at the first point you made. there was and is no solid reason for this war.

(Just playing the Devil's advocate here for a moment)

when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future. Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?

Yes, 'indefinate', 'near future'. All kind of relative terms don't ya think?

I could say the same for the American and other coalition forces. Them killing, fighting and dying is kind of pointless without good reason. Sure, now they've started it, they'd better finish it or else things will crumble and the **** will really hit the fan, but the point still stands.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Liberator
There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies,  throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression, when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future.   Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?

Originally posted by Tiara
No, but you have to realize that they believe in things just like you and I do. they only act on it in a far more extreme manner. i'm certainly not condoning their actions and their methods even less, but in a weird and sick way, it is understandable. Especially when you look at the first point you made. there was and is no solid reason for this war.

There are not of foreign fighters in iraq. However, those that are there are effective and in a manner proffesional terrorists. If you remember the military camp that the terrorist blewup the mess hall? Investigations pointed found that he was a Suadi(Go Figure). They are taking a more prominant role than the average Sunni insurgent. In military terms they are referred to as force multipliers. Other fighters are a mixture of regular civilians, and former republican guard finance by money from Syrian banks. Additionally, there are some hired mercenaries in Iraq as well. Saddam was no idiot.

*Waits for Swamp_Thing to come and say you are a bush lacky and listening to Bush propaganda after laughing in my face*

[Flipside]

I'll agree that a great deal of the insurgence is either co-ordinated or instigated by non-Iraqis. I'm wondering about the Syria connection though, is there evidence of Syria funding these people at all? I'd be far more inclined to suspect that a larger percentage of their funding would come from Saudi terrirtory, much as the 9/11 Terrorists, but no action will ever be taken against Saudi Arabia.

[Janos]

Originally posted by Flipside
I'll agree that a great deal of the insurgence is either co-ordinated or instigated by non-Iraqis. I'm wondering about the Syria connection though, is there evidence of Syria funding these people at all? I'd be far more inclined to suspect that a larger percentage of their funding would come from Saudi terrirtory, much as the 9/11 Terrorists, but no action will ever be taken against Saudi Arabia.

Taking action against Saudi-Arabia would be rather stupid. The royals are supporting US and trying to tackle extremists and islamists, and is pretty unpopular. Attacking the monarchy would be A) attacking your friends and 2) pawing way for more religious people. Using anything other than kind words and monetary aid for the throne (ie. more US military actions against the opposition groups) would propably cause the islamists gain even more support among the population and could destabilize the country. So far the only thing US can do is to support the throne and pray.

As for Syria, well, ugh. I cannot believe that some idiots in home front are drumming for another war (against someone who is no threat at all), when the Iraq stuff isn't ready. It would destablize the ME even more, be a massive PR hit, etc. etc. Add the fact that I have seen no casus belli that is in any way beliavable (LOL WMDs ARE THEYR BECAUSE THEY R BAATHISTS!!!1 TERRISM is the best one, and that's not much), it could drive the economy to shambles, the diplomatic repercussions would be bad, manpower issue et cetera et cetera..

[Janos]

Originally posted by redmenace




[snip]
...
and former republican guard finance by money from Syrian banks. Additionally, there are some hired mercenaries in Iraq as well. Saddam was no idiot.[/snip]
 

This Syrian banks thingy, source?

[redmenace]

It wouldn't suprise me if in fact Syria is hiding the bathist leaders especially since Sunni Bathists and Syrian bathists are very closely related. As per funding it, wellI think they are not since Saddam had of money stored up. This is more evident by the fact they have found in Falujah crisp dollar bills on insurgents. These did not come from the contractors since they pay in the iraqi currency. It must have come from either cash stores or money from syrian banks.

[vyper]

That's pretty shakey evidence against a whole country.

[SadisticSid]

A question to you all, do you think the insurgency in Iraq will ever end so long as the coalition is in there? I seriously doubt it. The comparisons between Israel/Palestine may be few, but I believe that's what the situation will devolve into. In light of that, perhaps it would be best to pull out now, let them have their civil wars and save face as well as our soldiers' lives. So long as we're in there the situation will only become worse.