[Kie99]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
kietotheworld: No - destroying a capship in subspace would be suicide - the node would collapse, and you'd be destroyed along with it. Ship-to-ship combat is a big no-no in subspace. Besides, it'd be almost impossible to get into a position to launch an attack, and even less likely that the attack would be under favourable conditions - just getting into a position where you could follow the Lucifer into subspace would be very difficult.

So all the fighters who took on he Lucifer in Good Luck died did they?  All the Colossus would have to do would be to chase the Lucifer until it tried to jump out.

The idea of beam weapons was copied from the Lucifer's superlasers by the GTI AFAIK - it's likely that the GTD Hades would have carried some form of beam cannon had it been completed, making it vastly more powerful. The shocking performance of Alliance capital ships against their Shivan counterparts was one of the biggest problems that needed to be urgently addressed after the Great War - the lack of useful ship-to-ship weaponry was the main problem, with Terran and Vasudan turrets being far inferior to the Shivan turrets. And the power of the Lucifer would have been terrifying - a ship that destroyed the GTD Galatea (one of the most famous and valued ships in the entire GTA) in a matter of minutes, with only a few volleys from it's main weapons. FS1-era Alliance ships didn't have anything like that kind of firepower - it'd be like having a 16th-century galleon going up against a 1930's battleship.

Where do you get this idea that the beams were reverse engineered from the Shivan Super Laser?  Its certainly not canon.

Beam weapons were developed to counter the Shivans, but I suspect that the GTVA was dreading the possibility of another Lucifer - hence the Colossus, which was the "secret weapon" to be used if another Lucifer fleet appeared... [/B]

How would the GTVA get enough information on the Lucifers shield to find out how to penetrate it?  Anyway the Colossus is hardly going to be afraid of the Lucifer, its faster than it and if the Lucifer turned to attack the Colossus it could just warp out.

[Bobboau]

I always thought the Nyarlathotep simply didn't have sheilds and had the ability to repair it'self instead.

[aldo_14]

NB: The Lucifer blew up as it exited subspace; the front half exited  with the GTVA fighters & bombers just ahead, and it then blew up; we didn't see anything exit the node (including the Lucifers rear end)after that.

Incidentally, I'm not sure the colossus could actually fit alonside the Lucifer in a subspace node... although, interestingly, Shivan vessels seem to have their heavy beams on the front so they would be quite well equipped to chase something through subspace.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
So all the fighters who took on he Lucifer in Good Luck died did they?

I suspect that lots of them did, yes. We only see a few ships escaping as the Lucifer breaks warp, a fraction of the number involved in the attack. At least half of the Lucy stays inside the node, where it presumably detonates as the front half did. Fighters wouldn't survive that, and they'd be trapped in the collapsing tunnel anyway.

All the Colossus would have to do would be to chase the Lucifer until it tried to jump out.

And then what?

Where do you get this idea that the beams were reverse engineered from the Shivan Super Laser?  Its certainly not canon.

Er, yes it is. Shields were copied from the Shivans, the Kayser was the result of research into Shivan weapons, etc. It's a standard practice even today - you see something that gives the enemy an advantage, you copy it (and make it better if possible, but GTVA technology isn't up to the standard of Shivan tech).

How would the GTVA get enough information on the Lucifers shield to find out how to penetrate it?  Anyway the Colossus is hardly going to be afraid of the Lucifer, its faster than it and if the Lucifer turned to attack the Colossus it could just warp out.

They don't know anything about the Lucy's shields. That's the whole point. It was impervious to everything the Alliance threw at it. The whole idea of the Colossus was to have a vessel which had a vast amount of firepower, several orders of magnitude more than anything else built beforehand. The thinking was that you might be abe to penetrate the shield if you could hit it hard enough - hence the 12 or so BFGreen beam cannons the Colossus carried. They didn't know if it would actually work, though - it was just the best idea they had...

The Colossus is inferior to the Lucifer in several ways. Firstly, it's weapon system is unreliable at best - it nearly overloaded when it engaged the first Sathanas at the battle of Capella. Secondly, the Colossus is one ship, which is very large and cumbersome. It's more than twice the length of the Lucifer - it's hard to miss, and even harder to hide. It also requires a large support fleet, of transports, tankers etc. to keep it running. Supply lines are very vulnerable to attack.
Next, a Lucifer carries a very large number of fighters and bombers - something the Colossus is less than well defended against. Also, a Lucifer is likely to be supported by at least one other destroyer (the   SD Eva in FS1 for example), and many cruisers that will never be far away in the event the Lucifer finds itself at risk.

Lastly, the Lucifer is known as the ship that cannot be killed. That instantly puts it at a psychological advantage - any captain will hesitate to engage it, as he/she will be afraid of it. Normal tactics will be ineffective - bombers are useless, so you cannot "soften up" the target with torpedo strikes beforehand to damage it's weapons/engines. Instead, you have to close to within beam range, which puts you within easy reach of the Lucy's own fighters and bombers, and (more importantly for capships) it's devastating weapons. Add to this the fact that you do not even know if your own weapons will work against the shield, and you are at a large disadvantage before you even start.

Not to mention that offensive action against Shivan vessels is very rare - it's far more likely that they will be attacking you, which means that a carefully laid plan will be worthless.

Originally posted by Bobboau
I always thought the Nyarlathotep simply didn't have sheilds and had the ability to repair itself instead.

That's an interesting idea. So all Lucifers are slightly different, unique in one special way?

That makes them even worse to fight against - you don't know it's "special power" until you run into it!

[WeatherOp]

I'm pretty sure that the Hades main weapons were two "Shivan Super Lasers", so the must have been reverse engineered.

[Kie99]

@Aldo_14
No because the Lucifer entered subspace a good 6 minutes before the Fighters and yet when the Lucifer was destroyed everyone was spewed out into Sol.

[pyro-manic]

Nope. Go and watch the cutscene again.

[Nuke]

alpha 1 and a subspace jump to sol

[Kie99]

@pyro-maniac
I watched it again, and there was nothing different to how I remembered.  What was I supposed to be looking at?

@weatherop

The Super Lasers on the Hades were reverse engineered but as for the beams in FS2 they are completely different.

@Pyro-maniac again

And then what?

What do you think?  maybe just maybe it would chase it into subspace and beam it to death? Or maybe it would just sit and look at it travelling into subspace to raze some planets.

They don't know anything about the Lucy's shields. That's the whole point. It was impervious to everything the Alliance threw at it. The whole idea of the Colossus was to have a vessel which had a vast amount of firepower, several orders of magnitude more than anything else built beforehand. The thinking was that you might be abe to penetrate the shield if you could hit it hard enough - hence the 12 or so BFGreen beam cannons the Colossus carried. They didn't know if it would actually work, though - it was just the best idea they had...

So why do you think the beams would penetrate the shields?

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
@pyro-maniac
I watched it again, and there was nothing different to how I remembered.  What was I supposed to be looking at?

The fighters entered the node after the Lucy, yes, but they had to catch it up in order to destroy it's reactors, yes? And the movie shows some fighters (some Ulysses and Hercs, a few Thoths and a few Ursas) escaping just ahead of it, before it explodes when it has emerged halfway, collapsing the node. Any fighters still inside would have been blasted by the explosion, and then destroyed as the node collapsed.

@Pyro-maniac again


What do you think?  maybe just maybe it would chase it into subspace and beam it to death? Or maybe it would just sit and look at it travelling into subspace to raze some planets.

No, because 1) there wouldn't be room inside the node to get alongside the Lucifer to broadside it, and 2) by destroying the Lucifer inside the node, the Colossus would be committing suicide - the node would collapse around it. See above.

So why do you think the beams would penetrate the shields?

Personally, I don't think that they would penetrate the shield.
What I was saying is that the GTVA thought they might penetrate the shields if they could hit them hard enough, e.g. a full broadside from the Colossus' main battery. They had no way of knowing, but that's what they would have tried if another Lucifer had shown up.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
@Aldo_14
No because the Lucifer entered subspace a good 6 minutes before the Fighters and yet when the Lucifer was destroyed everyone was spewed out into Sol.

Um.... in order to win the game you had to catch up with the Lucifer in subspace and shoot it and whatnot. Which kind of implies you'd have to be able, yknow, to move faster than it?

Oh, and I reckon that the Colossus would have been able to penetrate the Lucifers' shields; I'm pretty sure the Lucy was only impervious to FS1-era weaponry, and I think it's possible that beams themselves were developed to penetrate its shields.  I don't think there's any actual evidence over it, though; maybe :V: themselves never made their minds up, and that's why it's not seen in FS2.

I suspect, though, if they felt it was still invulnerable then they would have built ultra-fast 'chase' vessels (fighters, bombers, even light cpaships) rather than the Colossus.

[Kie99]

The Lucifer didn't move in subspace, if it would have made it get to Earth faster then it definately(sp?) would have moved.  And 4 Ursas exit the node at the exact same time as the middle of the Lucifer, then 12 or so fighters fly on to Earth.

Anyway, what's with all of this fit inside subspace stuff.  In good luck you can keep going for as long as you want to the side and you never stop because you've hit the side of subspace.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
The Lucifer didn't move in subspace, if it would have made it get to Earth faster then it definately(sp?) would have moved.  And 4 Ursas exit the node at the exact same time as the middle of the Lucifer, then 12 or so fighters fly on to Earth.

Doesn't matter; in order to catch up a six minute gap, the GTVA ships must have been moving a speed which was relatively faster than the Lucifer, and thus by extension would have been able to exit ahead or at the same time.  (anyway, why would the Lucifer need to hurry - assuming capships can - given that it had 800,000 or so hitpoints)

The reason you don't see twelve, etc, fighters exiting is probably simply down to the editing & cuts between views (also the Lucifers sides in the intro bit would shield a lot of them from view); there's not really any reason for them to show how every single fighter escaped.

And, of course, there's a cut from the explosion to the flypast, so it's just as likely they were met by escort fighters (actually, notice how completely non militarized Sol is?  You'd expect a massive fleet in wait for a last gasp defence, surely....)

 I don't have the cutscene handy to double check that, but I'm 100% sure that no ships exited whilst the Lucifer was blowing up; any ships that made it out would have to have exited before the shockwave, and we don't see any.

Originally posted by kietotheworld

Anyway, what's with all of this fit inside subspace stuff.  In good luck you can keep going for as long as you want to the side and you never stop because you've hit the side of subspace.

Fair point; I'd forgot about that.  Although don't you sort of 'surf' round the edge or something rather than be able to move away from the Lucifer?  (must check)

[Kie99]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Doesn't matter; in order to catch up a six minute gap, the GTVA ships must have been moving a speed which was relatively faster than the Lucifer, and thus by extension would have been able to exit ahead or at the same time.  (anyway, why would the Lucifer need to hurry - assuming capships can - given that it had 800,000 or so hitpoints)

Because it had  reactors and if the reactors are destroyed hen the Lucifer blows up

The reason you don't see twelve, etc, fighters exiting is probably simply down to the editing & cuts between views (also the Lucifers sides in the intro bit would shield a lot of them from view); there's not really any reason for them to show how every single fighter escaped.

I'm sure a few wingmen died in subspace though

And, of course, there's a cut from the explosion to the flypast, so it's just as likely they were met by escort fighters (actually, notice how completely non militarized Sol is?  You'd expect a massive fleet in wait for a last gasp defence, surely....)

Why would you want a last gasp defence against an invulnerable super-destroyer with weapons powerful enough to destroy you in a few shots?

 I don't have the cutscene handy to double check that, but I'm 100% sure that no ships exited whilst the Lucifer was blowing up; any ships that made it out would have to have exited before the shockwave, and we don't see any.

Well I just saw it and they do.

Fair point; I'd forgot about that.  Although don't you sort of 'surf' round the edge or something rather than be able to move away from the Lucifer?  (must check) [/B]

Nah, you just keep going.  THink of Subspace as a waiting room, you must wait there for X minutes and then you are sent out.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld

Why would you want a last gasp defence against an invulnerable super-destroyer with weapons powerful enough to destroy you in a few shots?
 

Oooh.... how about 6 billion+ people living on Sol?  What are you suggesting - they just retreat and say 'fair dos big man, on you go and nuke our homeworld' ?

I'll check the cutscene in a wee bit and reply RE: the rest.

[Mongoose]

One clarification on the cutscene:  before the Lucifer explodes, we see four Ursas, four Hercs, four Ulysses, and two Thoths exit from the node.  These same ships are shown in the flyby.  The attack started out with all of those ships, plus two more Thoths, so just about everyone survived.  (The other Thoths could have survived and just been off-camera, or it could have been an oversight while making the cutscene.  They're not shown being destroyed, so it could go either way.)

And kieto, the "Shivan Super Lasers" are just about the same as the FS2 beam cannons; since FS1's engine didn't include beam cannons, they were portrayed as invisible missiles, with the tails being the "beam" you actually see.  There is no canon difference between them; it's just graphical.  And yes, it is stated canonically that the GTVA's beams were reverse-engineered from the Lucifer's beam weapons.  Personally, I think that the GTVA had sufficient data on the Lucifer's shields to be able to determine that the Colossus's beam cannons would be able to penetrate them.  Remember, in the FS1 mission "Playing Judas," you take an up-close scan of the Lucifer; that same scan revealed the five reactors eventually used to destroy it.  Plus, there's the Ancient data recovered from Altair; that also included data on Shivan shields. Overall, I think the GTVA was fairly confident that the Colossus could take out a Lucifer; they wouldn't have spent 20 years building it if they weren't.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Oooh.... how about 6 billion+ people living on Sol?  What are you suggesting - they just retreat and say 'fair dos big man, on you go and nuke our homeworld' ?

I'll check the cutscene in a wee bit and reply RE: the rest.

No they evacuate the population of earth in numerous cruisers, destroyers and transports.  They would exit through the other 2 Sol Nodes which would still exist.

Even 100 Orion's shooting plasma blobs at the Lucifer will not do anything except kill 1,000,000 extra people who could have evacuated.

Seriously Do you think that they should have just died anyway to irriatate the shivans?

@Mongoose

Oh and as for the Super Lasers they are flux cannons and the FS2 beams are Photon beams.  Where is your canon source saying that Terran beams were reverse engineered.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld


Because it had  reactors and if the reactors are destroyed hen the Lucifer blows up

The Lucifer had never previously been destroyed as far as we know.    It also had a goodly amount of fighters onboard for defensive purposes to prevent small scale attacks.  And, of course, it's possible the zero speed was simply for gameplay purposes so the player would never get left behind (i.e. if they had to turn to take out an enemy on their tail).

Originally posted by kietotheworld
I'm sure a few wingmen died in subspace though

I'm sure if V thought it was worthwhile to render a new animation for every possible combination of wingmen killed, they would have done so.

Originally posted by kietotheworld

Well I just saw it and they do.

Nope, they don't.  The last few ships fly out over the top (Ursa IIRC) .  At this point the reactors on the surface are exploding (this is basically your propagating explosion).  The point I am specifically referring to is when the Lucifer explodes - not the surface explosions - but the point where ithe blue shockwave appears and the node closes (cutting the Lucifer neatly-or not so neatly- in half).  After this point we see no new ships arriving (and the same susbpace portal as the previously arriving fighters came out of, is now closed and destroyed).

EDIT;

Originally posted by kietotheworld



No they evacuate the population of earth in numerous cruisers, destroyers and transports.  They would exit through the other 2 Sol Nodes which would still exist.

Even 100 Orion's shooting plasma blobs at the Lucifer will not do anything except kill 1,000,000 extra people who could have evacuated.

Seriously Do you think that they should have just died anyway to irriatate the shivans?

Do you really think they could have evacuated Earth (and that's ignoring the many colonies and military assets in Sol outside Earth itself) in the time after which it became obvious the Shivans had found it? (<3 months to evacuate billions, in the middle of war affecting every system).  And even if they did so, why?  To create a moving target?  To sacrifice the military and economic hub of the war effort (not the industrial heart of munitions and ship manufacturing)?

Where would they get the destroyers and soforth from?  Divert them from the war?  An Orion has a 10,000 strong crew.  Even if they removed all the crew (which I presume is your 1,000,000 estimate - less than 1% of the current day Earth population), they would need thousands of ships to evacuate earth - each one a perfect target for Shivan attack.

It was simply a last stand - lose Earth, lose the war.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by aldo_14


The Lucifer had never previously been destroyed as far as we know.    It also had a goodly amount of fighters onboard for defensive purposes to prevent small scale attacks.  And, of course, it's possible the zero speed was simply for gameplay purposes so the player would never get left behind (i.e. if they had to turn to take out an enemy on their tail).



I'm sure if V thought it was worthwhile to render a new animation for every possible combination of wingmen killed, they would have done so.


Yah I know its a plot hole

Nope, they don't.  The last few ships fly out over the top (Ursa IIRC) .  At this point the reactors on the surface are exploding (this is basically your propagating explosion).  The point I am specifically referring to is when the Lucifer explodes - not the surface explosions - but the point where ithe blue shockwave appears and the node closes (cutting the Lucifer neatly-or not so neatly- in half).  After this point we see no new ships arriving (and the same susbpace portal as the previously arriving fighters came out of, is now closed and destroyed).

Don't you find it strange that at the moment the Lucifer lost hull integrity everyone was spewed out of the node?

EDIT;



Do you really think they could have evacuated Earth (and that's ignoring the many colonies and military assets in Sol outside Earth itself) in the time after which it became obvious the Shivans had found it? (<3 months to evacuate billions, in the middle of war affecting every system).  And even if they did so, why?  To create a moving target?  To sacrifice the military and economic hub of the war effort (not the industrial heart of munitions and ship manufacturing)?

Where would they get the destroyers and soforth from?  Divert them from the war?  An Orion has a 10,000 strong crew.  Even if they removed all the crew (which I presume is your 1,000,000 estimate - less than 1% of the current day Earth population), they would need thousands of ships to evacuate earth - each one a perfect target for Shivan attack.

It was simply a last stand - lose Earth, lose the war.

I meant that even if there were 100 Orions they would all die which would be worse than evacuating.  Also the reason to evacuate Earth is because a moving target perfect for a Shivan attack is better than a huge globe which would be still in relation to the Lucifer.  I agree that they wouldn't be able to evacuate all of the population of Earth but I'm sure they could use decommisoned destroyers etc. to do a pretty good job of it.  I'm not sure how many people they could evacuate but they would be able to save some lives.  The fact is that no matter what you chuck at the Lucifer (At least during FS1) will do NO DAMAGE[/U] to it.  The only possible thing you could do would be to arm 1000 fighters with flails and have them push it away, until they ran out of energy or were destroyed by Shivan fighters.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld

Don't you find it strange that at the moment the Lucifer lost hull integrity everyone was spewed out of the node?

Nope.  Simply for the purposes of storyline - it looks better, for one thing.  It also explains how Alpha 1 ('player voice') survives to make the last monologue.

Besides which, why would only half the Lucifer be 'spewed' out, and then explode?  For me the node collapse is when that blue shockwave occurs, cutting the Lucifer in half.

Originally posted by kietotheworld
I meant that even if there were 100 Orions they would all die which would be worse than evacuating.  Also the reason to evacuate Earth is because a moving target perfect for a Shivan attack is better than a huge globe which would be still in relation to the Lucifer.  I agree that they wouldn't be able to evacuate all of the population of Earth but I'm sure they could use decommisoned destroyers etc. to do a pretty good job of it.  I'm not sure how many people they could evacuate but they would be able to save some lives.  The fact is that no matter what you chuck at the Lucifer (At least during FS1) will do NO DAMAGE[/U] to it.  The only possible thing you could do would be to arm 1000 fighters with flails and have them push it away, until they ran out of energy or were destroyed by Shivan fighters.

No evidence how much damage a kamikaze attack would do on the Lucifer, for one thing.    Again, it's a simple principle - you don't win wars (or even survive them) by running away, because you run out of places to run to.  That's the point of last stands - they're fight or die situations.

Anyways, after a 14-year long war of attrition, how many destroyers would there have been left to decomission, anyways?  They could probably evacuate less than 100 million (and that's a massively optimistic estimate).  In return for surrendering Sol to the Shivans to do so, they would lose the industrial hub of the GTA (i.e. shipbuilding facilities, probably the few that were left), they would lose about (I would conservatively estimate) 10 billion lives, and would be left with 100 million refugees with no safe home to go to.

And assuming they did evacuate enough succesfully - where would they go?  How could a species fighting for its survival somehow find food, supplies and shelter for a medium sized nation?  And what would stop the Lucifer from simply coming again?  

And how long could they continue to fight the war after losing Sol?