[Flipside]

Well, that's what it boils down to TopAce, even Mace knew that what he was doing was 'wrong' from a Jedi point of view, yet he still chose to do it because it was the fastest, easiest way of dealing with the problem in front of him. That is the dark side of the force

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, that's what it boils down to TopAce, even Mace knew that what he was doing was 'wrong' from a Jedi point of view, yet he still chose to do it because it was the fastest, easiest way of dealing with the problem in front of him. That is the dark side of the force

I disagree. It would be much more dangerous and risky to capture Palpatine than to kill him on the spot. Attempting a capture would risk the lives of civillians and other Jedi if he were to somehow escape. Killing him on the spot would negate that risk. And besides, If they brought him in front of the council, they would have simply killed him then anyway. When the Jedi code was written, I don't think the writers had in mind "Do not attack an unarmed dark sith lord who will fry your ass with force lighting if you hesitate few seconds", rather I think the writer was referring to civillian fugitives and bounty hunters and other everyday scum. I think Mace was acting in the light side with his actions because:

1. He WAS armed.
2. He could escape if not killed.
3. Having him escape would endanger the lives of many innocents.

[Flipside]

As I said before, as far as Mace was aware, Sidious was too weak to continue fighting. The first offer Mace made was to pull him in front of the council. If Sidious had agreed, and owned the Courts and the Senate as Mace claimed later on in the same scene, then surely he was far more armed and dangerous there and then, yet the offer was still made.
Mace later decided that the offer did not stand and that Sidious should die. Sidious was in the same condition as Dooku, beaten and weak, I think it was Anakins conversion that restored him at that moment, remember, Jedi and Sith draw their power from the Force around them.
So why should it be evil if Anakin does it to Dooku, and yet fine if Mace does it to Sidious?

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Flipside
As I said before, as far as Mace was aware, Sidious was too weak to continue fighting. The first offer Mace made was to pull him in front of the council. If Sidious had agreed, and owned the Courts and the Senate as Mace claimed later on in the same scene, then surely he was far more armed and dangerous there and then, yet the offer was still made.
Mace later decided that the offer did not stand and that Sidious should die. Sidious was in the same condition as Dooku, beaten and weak, I think it was Anakins conversion that restored him at that moment, remember, Jedi and Sith draw their power from the Force around them.
So why should it be evil if Anakin does it to Dooku, and yet fine if Mace does it to Sidious?

Anakin did it for revenge, and I think Mace did it for safety of the Republic. I think the only reason Mace suggested that was to not sound like a sith himself in front of the other Jedi. And remember, Mace wasen't expecting Palpatine to be as powerful as he was, and his judgement changed to reflect the current situation. He wasen't expecting him to be powerful enough to 3 of his escorts in under half a minute. Windu knew that Palpatine could probably worm his way out of any situation, legally or by other means, and he decided that he was simply too powerful. And he was right, as it didn't take long for Palpatine to recharge his force lighning powers.

[Flipside]

Well, the say they road to Hell is paved with good intentions

It may have been the decision Mace came to, but, as the movie proved it was the wrong one. When Anakin chops off Mace's hand, Palpatine strikes with a cry of 'Unlimited Power!', that's what makes me stop and think that Sidious' power for the second burst of lightning actually came from Anakin, not Sidious himself. Had Anakin not turned on Mace, I don't think the Sith could have done a thing to defend himself at that stage. I still don't consider Maces decision to be wise, or even particuarly 'Jedi', but it's easy to see how he came to it.

One other question, why the big swipe anyway? He's holding the Sabre 2 inches from the guys nose and yet decide to go for a golf club style attack rather than simply jabbing forward. (And yes, I do know it's because otherwise Anakin couldn't cut his hand off and it would have caused a rather sticky continuity error, but I had to ask )

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, the say they road to Hell is paved with good intentions

It may have been the decision Mace came to, but, as the movie proved it was the wrong one. When Anakin chops off Mace's hand, Palpatine strikes with a cry of 'Unlimited Power!', that's what makes me stop and think that Sidious' power for the second burst of lightning actually came from Anakin, not Sidious himself. Had Anakin not turned on Mace, I don't think the Sith could have done a thing to defend himself at that stage. I still don't consider Maces decision to be wise, or even particuarly 'Jedi', but it's easy to see how he came to it.

Hmmm... We'll never know what would have happened if Windu tried to apprehend ol' Palps.

One other question, why the big swipe anyway? He's holding the Sabre 2 inches from the guys nose and yet decide to go for a golf club style attack rather than simply jabbing forward. (And yes, I do know it's because otherwise Anakin couldn't cut his hand off and it would have caused a rather sticky continuity error, but I had to ask ) [/B]

The Jedi always have to be so dramatic and artsy, one of their fatal flaws IMO. Another question, why did Windu give him a speech first? Why did it even matter if Windu was planning to kill him anyway? I don't think Windu should have paused at all the second he knocked Palpatine's saber out of the window. He should have taken the rare oppurtunity and struck him down immediatley. But of couse, being the dark sith lord that I am, killing him immediatley would have been my obvious course of action.

[WMCoolmon]

I think the point of that scene was to show that Anakin was willing to bend the rules for Palpatine (who he knew) but not for Mace. Mace was continually distrusting of him, Palpatine was continually supportive.

In the case of Dooku, Anakin was killing a (literally) unarmed foe. Whether or not Dooku could've used Force Lighting is doubtful. Putting him on trial might've actually weakened the CIS cause, and/or given the Republic something to barter with.

In the case of Palpatine, he was still very much alive. Very possibly capable of more Force lightning if given time to recharge, and had obviously already killed 3 Jedi Masters (I have a hard time believing Anakin missed the bodies). If it took all that to get him to the position he was in, how could they expect to hold him, much less put him on trial?

And finally, I don't think anybody realized that Palpatine was the Sith Lord because no one expected him to be hiding in plain sight. How many people would believe you if you tried to seriously argue that Tony Blair is actually Osama bin Laden?

[Flipside]

Well, I think Yoda had his doubts about Palpatine from the point he suggested that Anakin be Padme's bodyguard, and knowing who the bad guy was from Episode 1 doesn't help, but I thought it was pretty obvious who the Sith was

I actually found Ian McDiarmid's performance to be very good for most of the film, except for his fight scenes, for one, he's one of these people who opens his mouth or sticks his tongue out when he's concentrating, and secondly, when Yoda confronts him, theres times when he acts almost....comical. In his defence, he's nearly 30 years older than when he made ROTJ (he wasn't in Episode 5 iirc, an old lady was actually playing the Emperor in the original Empire Strikes Back). But there are times, when it seemed like Sidious was 2 different people, from the cold and calculating Emperor to the insance, giggling, animalistic Sith. I think it was the intention to make him seem like that, but it didn't all fit together quite squarely.

[EtherShock]

The Jedi Order was dogmatic. That's why everything happened the way it did. They were very orthodox, having to follow the rules.

[Knight Templar]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Yea, I didn't understand why Yoda just gave up after that. He fell down and then got right back up, why'd he run?

He realized he was beaten. Between losing his lightsabre, falling 100 feet, and losing his cloak, I think he realised that he wouldn't be able to beat Palpatine. And even if he could , there would be  ahell of a mess to clean up afterward, with the Republic, and Anakin.

[WMCoolmon]

Or he sensed the approaching clonetroopers and realized he couldn't fight them plus Palpatine at the same time.

[EtherShock]

Originally posted by Knight Templar

He realized he was beaten. Between losing his lightsabre, falling 100 feet, and losing his cloak, I think he realised that he wouldn't be able to beat Palpatine. And even if he could , there would be  ahell of a mess to clean up afterward, with the Republic, and Anakin.

That duel was more of a draw, a victory for either side would've meant  the other's demise. I found it funny when Sidious was cackling and then all the sudden he's screaming for his life as well. It seemed very cartoonish.

I just saw the movie again tonight. It was captioned too. Someone must've requested it. Jeez, they caption everything. I liked it much better this time... still not as good as the OT though.

You know what I realized, Anakin might have lost Padme either way, because the Jedi said they would have to kill all the senators as well, or maybe they just meant all the corrupt senators? *Shrugs*

Originally posted by Flipside

It may have been the decision Mace came to, but, as the movie proved it was the wrong one. When Anakin chops off Mace's hand, Palpatine strikes with a cry of 'Unlimited Power!', that's what makes me stop and think that Sidious' power for the second burst of lightning actually came from Anakin, not Sidious himself. Had Anakin not turned on Mace, I don't think the Sith could have done a thing to defend himself at that stage. I still don't consider Maces decision to be wise, or even particuarly 'Jedi', but it's easy to see how he came to it.

You're right, it's very possible that once Anakin turned, Palpatine was able to tap into his power, as he exclaimed, "Power! Unlimited power!" while zapping Windu.

Originally posted by KappaWing

The Jedi always have to be so dramatic and artsy, one of their fatal flaws IMO. Another question, why did Windu give him a speech first? Why did it even matter if Windu was planning to kill him anyway? I don't think Windu should have paused at all the second he knocked Palpatine's saber out of the window. He should have taken the rare oppurtunity and struck him down immediatley. But of couse, being the dark sith lord that I am, killing him immediatley would have been my obvious course of action.

I would've killed him to--after one line of dialogue--which I could've delivered whilst thrusting my saber through his body. Then again, I have the makings of a Sith Lord.

Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

[Sigma957]

As soon as Palps was disarmed Mace should have followed on by lopping his head off and then said something witty. Jedi must destroy the sith and that can't be done by talking all the time.:devil:

[TopAce]

He shouldn't have done that, because the two trilogies would have contradicted each other.

[Sigma957]

Blah, bugger the two trilogies that what he should have done

[Mongoose]

Regarding Palpatine, I was under the impression that he was mostly faking his "weakness" when Windu was standing over him.  I have the feeling that Palpatine was just pulling a good act in order to get Anakin to snap and turn competely over to the dark side.  I don't buy for a minute that he couldn't have kicked Windu's ass at any time he chose, no matter how badass Samuel L. is.

[Grey Wolf]

I saw it tonight. I hereby deny the existence of Episodes 1-3 and maybe 6.

[NGTM-1R]

Samething I said about Episode 2 applies here.

Good movie.

Bad Star Wars movie.

[TopAce]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Regarding Palpatine, I was under the impression that he was mostly faking his "weakness" when Windu was standing over him.  I have the feeling that Palpatine was just pulling a good act in order to get Anakin to snap and turn competely over to the dark side.  I don't buy for a minute that he couldn't have kicked Windu's ass at any time he chose, no matter how badass Samuel L. is.

Mace Windu was the second best lightsabre-wielder in the galaxy, first was Yoda.
However, if it comes to the Force, I think Palpatine was the stronger.

[Roanoke]

I quite liked it. It did get acros the tragedy of Anakin's fall to the darkside. Still think Yoda's best part was fighting R2 for the lamp in ESB.

And that opening shot when you first see the Cruisers duking it out at the start was indeed cool.