[Boomer]

Maybe the shivans just wanted to distract us?

Now this requires the assumption that we aren't the Shivan's main target but think about it:  What better way is there to tell those annoying little ants that keep biting at inopportune moments to stop than by nuking an anthill?

Too bad they missed Command...

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by karajorma
Don't buy it. For that to have been Bosch's plan there are two important things you haven't addressed.

1) Bosch would have to have known about the Shivan Sathanas fleet before he started his rebellion. That's possible but it seems odd that the GTVA would know of it, bury it and then look surprised when they appeared.

2) More importantly Bosch's monologues consitantly speak of his desire to form an alliance with the Shivans and abandon the Vasudans because humans have no future with them. The only way I can reconcile that with your theory is if Bosch was writing fake entries for when the Shivans boarded the Iceni and quite frankly that's a little too far out for me to accept without good cause.

I suppose I didn't elaborate enough in my first post. I've got a couple of answers to this:

1) Judging by his monologues (especially the first), it seems obvious that Bosch was judging off of the history or the destruction of the Ancients when he was forming theories about the Shivans. He apparently had drawn up the idea in his head that the Shivans had come for the Ancients and that they were determined to completely destroy them.

Now, based on this, he could have looked at the Great War and assumed that the Terran-Vasudan victory was shallow and didn't mean anything; if the Shivans were truly determined to destroy the Terrans and Vasudans, then the loss of the Lucifer fleet would have only forced them to play something a little stronger; say, the Sathanas juggernauts. When the first Sathanas arrived in Capella, the Shivans might not have expected the Colossus, and therefore, when they saw that their one juggernaut had been destroyed, they took it up another notch: this time with several dozen of such ships.

Bosch, seeing as how the Shivans would relentlessly hunt the Terrans and Vasudans until they were completely destroyed (as they did with the Ancients, if you remember the Ancient monologues from FS1), found a way that he believed would stop the Shivans; the old GTI communication technology from the 2335 rebellion served him good in this case, as he improved upon it and created ETAK. With this technology, and with the conception of a full Shivan assault on the GTVA, he prepared the Iceni to use the communication technology, while at the same time using Neo-Terra to distract the GTVA from his true intentions.

Now how he knew about the Knossos in Gamma Draconis is beyond me; it could very well have been from the GTI research as well, or someone could simply have stumbled onto it and he managed to get to the information first. He activated the Knossos, thereby giving the Shivans an open door into Terran-Vasudan space. At full charge, he brought the NTF to bear on the Knossos, and he slipped into the nebula. With both the nebula and the Shivans holding off the GTVA, he activates ETAK and communicates with the Shivans. The actual Shivan reaction to the message is unknown; however, a rendezvous is scheduled between the Iceni and two Shivan cruisers, and Bosch is taken by a Shivan boarding party after a firefight on the Iceni.

Here it depends on whether Bosch actually did anything to gain Shivan trust and have them listen to his ETAK transmissions. If the Shivans had taken what they could have believed to be an order from one of their higher-ups, then Bosch could have simply stopped the Shivans from continuing any further than Capella, and then, if he had stowed away the ETAK tech on the transport, he could have ordered the Shivans to do something completely out of the ordinary.

Remember how in one of the monologues that Bosch was watching the new star forming? And then the other one in the nebula where he was ruminating over the nebula? He may have assumed that the Shivans, knowing much more about subspace than the Terrans or Vasudans, could have caused the supernova that created the Lupus nebula. With that in mind, he could have ordered the Shivans to create a new one in Capella.

While I doubt that he would have seen the GTVA being able to close the nodes, he might have seen the Shivans' attempt at creating a supernova as a diversion, allowing the GTVA to evacuate Capella and hold off the Shivan fleet.

2) I can try to refer to part of my above answer for this one, too. You are right in referring to what Bosch said about there being no future with the Vasudans, and that an alliance with the Shivans would have been necessary for survival, but how about we pick that apart a bit? Into two parts:

Part 1: Bosch acknowledged that the Vasudans would not be the hope for survival of the human race; however, he later says that his rebellion is about 'his love for humanity, not his hatred of the Vasudans'. By this, we can assume that he didn't necessarily look down on the Vasudans as a weaker race or had some prejudice against them, but that he did see the Vasudans as being mankind's hope for survival in the galaxy against the Shivans.

By this logic, he assumed that the Vasudans would simply be an extra race for the Shivans to destroy once they inevitably returned to GTVA space; as I said above, the attack would be much stronger than the fleet faced in the Great War, and, while the GTVA was stronger by the time the Second Great War came around, the Shivans would simply be much stronger than the Terrans and Vasudans. Therefore, no alliance with the Vasudans would have saved humanity from the Shivans; they simply would be lined up to die with humans once the Shivans returned.

Part 2: When he spoke about the alliance with the Shivans, he meant this to be as humanity's hope for survival; having the Shivans on the side of the humans would have had the Shivans not trying to kill Terrans and Vasudans, but instead breaking them off to attack someone else.

Right? Partially. While he saw an alliance with the Shivans as possible, I doubt that he could have seen a mutual alliance with shared resources or partnership with the Shivans. What Bosch possibly saw more of was something along the lines of "You do what we tell you to do"; he accomplished this through ETAK, as he ordered the Shivans to break off a full attack on GTVA space and simply nuke Capella. The Shivans may have demanded something in return, or they might not have, as they might have confused the ETAK technology as an order of one their higher-ups, and therefore would not have demanded anything back from Bosch.

[The Spac]

Bosch finds out the location of knosses from ruins in deneb, along with how to activate it

Interesting theory anyway, it does seem like all hell broke loose after they got him but I think it happend a little too soon for him to be responsible for that event.

As for the people being killed on the Iceni when they came for him, his own men probably hadn't even been informed about ETAK since it was classified to their highest branch, 2 other admirals were taken with bosch too.

[Mefustae]

Wow, i got about halfway through that post (some good points you raise there) before i just plum gave up...honestly, somethings are just beyond understanding; God, Women, Whether or not its right to Double Dip a Chip, and of course...Shivans...

[Nuke]

the big question is, would the shivans have attacked if the vasudans and the terrans never had their war? or are the shivans tyrants and would have crushed the gtva regaurdless.

its a good theory but i dont see the shivans as taking orders from a mere human. bosh had a unique understanding of the shivans, but understanding does not equil control.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by nuclear1
Part 1: Bosch acknowledged that the Vasudans would not be the hope for survival of the human race; however, he later says that his rebellion is about 'his love for humanity, not his hatred of the Vasudans'. By this, we can assume that he didn't necessarily look down on the Vasudans as a weaker race or had some prejudice against them, but that he did see the Vasudans as being mankind's hope for survival in the galaxy against the Shivans.

By this logic, he assumed that the Vasudans would simply be an extra race for the Shivans to destroy once they inevitably returned to GTVA space; as I said above, the attack would be much stronger than the fleet faced in the Great War, and, while the GTVA was stronger by the time the Second Great War came around, the Shivans would simply be much stronger than the Terrans and Vasudans. Therefore, no alliance with the Vasudans would have saved humanity from the Shivans; they simply would be lined up to die with humans once the Shivans returned.

This is a very good point.

[karajorma]

Still not buying it.

Listen to this bit again.

As a young pilot I battled against the rebels of the great war, the Galactic Terran Intelligence whose research of Shivan technology and biology would form the cornerstone of my project. The Terran-Vasudan alliance buried this knowledge but I resurrected it. I alone realised our species had no future with the Vasudans. If we are to survive, our destiny must lie elsewhere.

Bosch may not hate the Vasudans but he clearly blames them for burying the information. Listen to his voice and you can quite clearly hear that the emphasis is on the word Vasudan.

Bosch wanted to break up the alliance because he believed that the GTVA were hiding something that was good for the Vasudans (at least in the short term) but could possibly spell destruction for humanity.

 Bosch could have achieved his goal without breaking up the alliance but it seems to me that although he doesn't hate the Vasudans he feels that they are holding humanity back somehow.

Besides I don't agree with your interpretation of the word alliance. He doesn't sound like a man celebrating the fact that he's got one over on the enemy.

We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon. This tragic era of hatred and misunderstanding between our races is over. On this day, for the first time in my life, I am filled with joy.

Bosch honestly believes that his actions can somehow end the fighting between Shivans and Terrans (He doesn't seem to care much what happens to the Vasudans) permanently and amicably. It doesn't sound to me like he's found a way to simply trick them into leaving us alone. .

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by karajorma
Bosch may not hate the Vasudans but he clearly blames them for burying the information. Listen to his voice and you can quite clearly hear that the emphasis is on the word Vasudan.

Bosch wanted to break up the alliance because he believed that the GTVA were hiding something that was good for the Vasudans (at least in the short term) but could possibly spell destruction for humanity.

Here I think you just went a little deeper into what I said in the section of my post quoted by Goober, especially this line:

By this, we can assume that he didn't necessarily look down on the Vasudans as a weaker race or had some prejudice against them, but that he did see the Vasudans as being mankind's hope for survival in the galaxy against the Shivans.

He does blame the Alliance (Vasudans in particular) for burying the GTI research from the 2335 Rebellion, which opens another topic: why was the information kept under wraps by the GTVA? The Alliance simply might not have understood what the GTI background on ETAK was all about, and therefore saw it as something that should never be completed due to long-reaching negative consequences for the Terrans and Vasudans. It might also be that the GTI and its research, having been seen as renegade and hostile to the GTA and the PVN, was simply seen as a threat to the Alliance, and therefore left untouched until Bosch came around.

To see if we can further understand the Allied hatred toward the GTI and its research, let's took a look at the Great War. During the war, the Vasudans had their homeworld blasted by the Lucifer and billions of their people killed in the attack. The Terrans just narrowly avoided having Earth destroyed by the Lucifer, but at the cost of losing contact with Earth due to the collapse of the Delta Serpentis node. Because of this, the Terrans and Vasudans have an understandable hatred toward the Shivans.

At about this time, the GTI, as obviously refusing to give up their research on the Shivans, are announced to be renegades. Whether they were actually maliciously intending to overthrow the GTA and PVN violently with Shivan cohorts, or if they simply believed the way Bosch did in terms of humanity's survival not resting with the Vasudans is up to debate. However, it is obvious that the GTI and Shivans had some cooperation at one point, or that the GTI simply were able to control Shivan technology in such a way that the GTA and PVN saw as unnerving.

At this point, you have the Hades superdestroyer emerge. This is one huge problem for the GTA and PVN: a vessel under the control of renegades giving off Shivan electronic signatures and launching Shivan vessels (if you don't believe me, take a look at the last ST mission again: the bomber wing which launches from the Hades is designated as "Indra", which typically denotes a Shivan wing, while GTI ships use names from Norse mythology) aimed at obviously destroying the GTA and PVN. Big threat? Yes. The power of the Lucifer in the hands of the rebels? Huge threat.

Seeing as how the GTA and PVN managed to destroy the Hades before it truly came online, the Terrans and Vasudans found themselves lucky, and therefore buried the technology in the event that another rebellion would try to do the same thing that the GTI did. In this case, the Vasudans could have simply ordered the information highly-classified under the guise of "in the interest of galactic security". By this they accomplished several goals:
[list=1]

• The Vasudans and Terrans managed to bury important research on the Shivans.
• The Alliance destroyed one aspect of Shivan research that could have been of greater assistance than the Colossus ever would have been.
• The GTVA ended the GTI Rebellion, blindly seeing the GTI as traitors and criminals for attempting an alliance with the Shivans, and then made the same mistake again with Bosch.

Effectively, the GTVA ended Shivan research which they believed to have more risks than bonuses: the GTI apparently had the ability to control Shivan technology and vessels, but the GTVA saw the same technology as being too dangerous, especially if it should fall into the 'wrong hands', as they saw it did during the GTI Rebellion.

Bosch, having realized the second point above, resurrected the GTI research and completed ETAK, through which he saw attempted communication and cooperation with the Shivans as a much more effective method of halting them than any amount of firepower or new warships, as the GTVA had gone (Colossus, beam cannons, etc.).

Bosch could have achieved his goal without breaking up the alliance but it seems to me that although he doesn't hate the Vasudans he feels that they are holding humanity back somehow.

Summarized earlier in my post. The Vasudans are simply so prejudiced against the Shivans that they saw the only research that could possibly save both races as traitorous and inherently evil, as it dealt with technology belonging to the race that destroyed their homeworld and caused them so much suffering. The Vasudans were holding the Terrans back; not intentionally or maliciously, but through their own blindness and personal beliefs.

Therefore, Bosch saw this as dangerous, and saw separating from the Vasudans as the best way to resurrect old GTI technology and use the benefits to their fullest potential in an alliance with the Shivans.

Besides I don't agree with your interpretation of the word alliance. He doesn't sound like a man celebrating the fact that he's got one over on the enemy.

You may be right here. I think I worded my "alliance" paragraph oddly and poorly in the first place. I know that Bosch doesn't seem to be one to boast that he has the advantage over the Shivans, but, if you look at it in the same way, he may also realize that the way he opens communication with the Shivans is the only way to obtain an alliance. Perhaps he understands the Shivans better than anyone else does; it might just be that the Shivans respond more to determined leadership and one who steps up better than to communications attempted by the GTA during the Great War, which were more along the lines of the peaceful diplomatic talks.

Bosch honestly believes that his actions can somehow end the fighting between Shivans and Terrans (He doesn't seem to care much what happens to the Vasudans) permanently and amicably. It doesn't sound to me like he's found a way to simply trick them into leaving us alone.

Again, you may be right here. However, I still stand by my argument that Bosch does use this to get the Shivans' attention. When Bosch opened communication with the Shivans, it may have surprised the Shivans enough that they were willing to listen to what he said.

The "hatred and misunderstanding" between the Terrans and Shivans could very well be just because of the lack of the technology for the Terrans to communicate with the Shivans. Honestly, it may have impressed the Shivans that the Terrans had finally taken the research to learn how to communicate with their race and then saw the Terrans in a new light--that may have been the first step in the alliance that Bosch sought, having the Shivans look on the Terrans and think that this race is different, not just blind, hating, and fighting like all of the others that the Shivans had destroyed before.

It might have been that, with Bosch having been able to communicate with the Shivans, the Shivans would have been more open to listen to Bosch, especially regarding the fate of the Terrans.

Feel free to tear this up, if you like. I'm getting a lot of great ideas and thought-provoking arguments from this thread. ;)

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by nuclear1
Honestly, it may have impressed the Shivans that the Terrans had finally taken the research to learn how to communicate with their race and then saw the Terrans in a new light--that may have been the first step in the alliance that Bosch sought, having the Shivans look on the Terrans and think that this race is different, not just blind, hating, and fighting like all of the others that the Shivans had destroyed before.

Given that the Shivans have consistantly fired first, from Ross 128 onwards, this seems unlikely. They have never demonstrably made an attempt to communicate.

Given that standard GTA/GTVA comm systems are capable of picking up Shivan transmissions (reference the Tech Room, Return to Babel), it seems reasonable that GTA/GTVA communications are also interceptable by the Shivans. The GTA attempted to communicate with them, through various means ("All attempts at communication have ended in violence."), and in each case was met with weapons fire.

[Nuclear1]

That's the point I was trying to make. While the Shivans may have been able to interpret the GTA transmissions, it may have meant nothing to them--after all, what's more impressive: Having someone speak to you in a foreign language and then having it translated for you, or having the person speak directly to you in your language?

While it may be arguable that ETAK would have been an intermediary when it came to communication with the Shivans, that's the same as arguing that a French-English dictionary is an intermediary when it comes to a Frenchman speaking English with an American.

Given that the Shivans have consistantly fired first, from Ross 128 onwards, this seems unlikely. They have never demonstrably made an attempt to communicate.

This is possibly because they have seen this happen so many other times before. Maybe the Terrans aren't the first race to try to communicate with the Shivans normally, and therefore the Shivans would have simply gone on with their usual pattern. However, when Bosch used ETAK and communicated with the Shivans in their own language, then the Shivans might have been more impressed, as this may have been the first time ever that one of the races that they have been trying to destroy has actually attempted to reach a peaceful solution in their own language, rather than continuing to fight, as the GTVA did.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by nuclear1
Again, you may be right here. However, I still stand by my argument that Bosch does use this to get the Shivans' attention. When Bosch opened communication with the Shivans, it may have surprised the Shivans enough that they were willing to listen to what he said.

I don't dispute that. Command tried repeatedly to communicate with the Shivans. and got nowhere. Bosch tries and succeeds. It's obvious that either Bosch's message or the fact that he was speaking in a Shivan language was what impressed them. However it's worth remembering that we have no proof whatsoever that the GTI didn't have their own ETAK device and that Bosch's project was merely an attempt to recreate it after the plans were destroyed in the last mission of Silent Threat.

Originally posted by nuclear1
The "hatred and misunderstanding" between the Terrans and Shivans could very well be just because of the lack of the technology for the Terrans to communicate with the Shivans. Honestly, it may have impressed the Shivans that the Terrans had finally taken the research to learn how to communicate with their race and then saw the Terrans in a new light--that may have been the first step in the alliance that Bosch sought, having the Shivans look on the Terrans and think that this race is different, not just blind, hating, and fighting like all of the others that the Shivans had destroyed before.

It might have been that, with Bosch having been able to communicate with the Shivans, the Shivans would have been more open to listen to Bosch, especially regarding the fate of the Terrans.

The problem I have with that is that if Bosch thinks he's brought peace between the Terrans and Shivans then it seems unlikely that he'd be involved in some plot to trick them into losing at least 4 saths and blocking off Capella. Unless you're saying that this was a backup plan when he didn't get the peace he thought he would get.

It's also worth noting that I still don't see much of a reason why the Shivans would listen to Bosch and blow up Capella on his orders.


Anyway. It's still a plausable theory. But it's one amongst many. The background of MindGames has another theory which fits the facts just as well and I'm sure it's not the only one.

[Boomer]

Has anyone thought that Bosch making contact in the Shivans own language might have pissed them off?  Given we don't know how the Shivans think, but what if they thought they were getting a signal from a captured Shivan?  That would explain the big firefight on the Iceni.  The Shivans come aboard looking for one of their own who doesn't exist, they don't find him and assume he was killed, take Bosch and other people as vengeance.

I realize that the Shivans don't seem to hold that much value for their own people, but it is a possibility.

It would also explain why they stepped up their attacks.  They see the "true barbarianism" of the Terrans.  They didn't just kill a Shivan, they killed a Prisoner of War.  This might have been a personal blow to the Shivans?  

Now of course this is all theory...  Have at it with your sporks!

[DarthWang]

Right, they call that 'barbarianism' after they indiscriminately wipeout the homeworld of an entire race just for the hell of it.

[aldo_14]

I doubt the Shivans would misunderstand a message that Bosch thinks means 'this tragic era of hatred and misunderstanding between our races is over' severely enough to not only think it was from a Shivan, but that it was an SOS.

Not to mention 'rudimentary and crude' isn't what they'd expect from a native speacker.

[karajorma]

I think they could misunderstand it though. The message Bosch thinks he sent and the message the Shivans understood could be two completely different things.

Bosch would be putting the best spin on any communications he recieved but for all he knows the Shivans might have sent the transports over because they though Bosch was inviting them over for chip, dip and pay-per-view Vasudan porn.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma
I think they could misunderstand it though. The message Bosch thinks he sent and the message the Shivans understood could be two completely different things.

Bosch would be putting the best spin on any communications he recieved but for all he knows the Shivans might have sent the transports over because they though Bosch was inviting them over for chip, dip and pay-per-view Vasudan porn.

The implication is that there was 2-way communication between the two, though.  For that sort of fundamental misunderstanding, you'd really need a consistant translation error focusing on meaning across multiple messages which IMO is pretty damn unlikely.

It's possible one message may be interpreted wrongly by the translator, but I don;t think you could get the same consistant problem if you're replying to messages.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14


The implication is that there was 2-way communication between the two, though.  For that sort of fundamental misunderstanding, you'd really need a consistant translation error focusing on meaning across multiple messages which IMO is pretty damn unlikely.

It's possible one message may be interpreted wrongly by the translator, but I don;t think you could get the same consistant problem if you're replying to messages.

Remember though that

a) Communication was crude and therefore open to mistakes/interpretation of what was said
b) We have no idea how long the converation between the two was
c) Bosch would probably put the best spin on any ambiguous answer.

This latter one is the most dangerous of the lot

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by karajorma


Remember though that

a) Communication was crude and therefore open to mistakes/interpretation of what was said
b) We have no idea how long the converation between the two was
c) Bosch would probably put the best spin on any ambiguous answer.

This latter one is the most dangerous of the lot

Well, from the game we know that:

a) The communication technology was prototype and therefore quite crude, though the "crude" that Bosch was referring to might be because the fact that their first meeting was interrupted by a Vasudan attack wing.
b) The conversation was at least back-and-forth once--both the Iceni and the Rakshasa in the mission sent messages, and they may have very well done more before that. How much more is up to debate.
c) Apparently Bosch did something right, as he got the Shivans to listen and schedule a rendezvous elsewhere. Then again, he might have screwed up and the Shivans boarded, took him and a bunch of others, and killed everyone else.

[Kie99]

I think Bosch must have been key to the destruction of Capella, becasue his Character is so heavily featured in the plotline, and if the Shivans simply took him and lobotomised him it would be a waste of 4 cutscenes.

[Boomer]

It's possible one message may be interpreted wrongly by the translator, but I don;t think you could get the same consistant problem if you're replying to messages.

Just because Bosch could imitate the sounds of the language with ETAK, that doesn't mean he had the language down.  All that they could have gotten down was the number system. What Bosch actually could have said was "Meet stupid sink Vasudans Wuv Fishies in toilet at coordinates 01.459.589"