Author Topic: The Problem With Linux  (Read 26868 times)

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Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
It's impossible for the same reason why the kernel will never move from GPL version 2; it's not possible to get the permission from the thousands of copyright holders of Linux kernel code.
That's not only possible, it's built right into the GPL.  Anyone who updates the source code has the option to do so under a future version of the license.

 

Offline Kamikaze

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No. Linus removed that portion of the license for the Linux Kernel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel#Licensing_terms
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 06:53:58 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]Does anyone else think that Tux the penguin is a horrible mascot?

He's just plain ugly.
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Offline Kamikaze

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Yeah, Linux-tan is much better. :D

Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline BlackDove

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Oh ****.

You opened Shrike's door.

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
...


You made me laugh.

There's a reason I use FreeBSD and its straight down to your two points and a third: Linux fanboys are like Zarax, but in reverse. Its frightening.

Grab FreeBSD from http://www.freebsd.org.
Read the handbook.
Read the the installation section in particular.
If you have any questions, ask and I'll do my best to answer.

For the record, when I switched my NT4 domain controller and IIS4 server with access databases to FreeBSD using Samba, Apache and Postgres, I did the switchover in a single week.

For desktop, I run KDE, themed for Redmond. The only major tweaks I've had to make are adding support for my sound card, MP3 player and ATAPI->SCSI mapping to the kernel. All of these were accomplished by adding, at most, two lines to my kernel config (a well documented text file) and rebooting.
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Offline Kamikaze

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I'm not really sure BSD will address Sandwich's issues.

Firstly, FreeBSD is not necessarily easy to install. I remember when I tried to install from a stable FreeBSD 5.x, it decided to bork out on me midway through for no reason I could discern. Installing a BSD is likely as hard as installing Slackware or Debian 3.0 (which isn't very hard from my perspective, but I'm biased).

Plus it sounds like Sandwich's problem has more to do with KDE 4 years ago than anything else. I know for certain that changing resolution in Gnome or KDE are not an issue now (if it ever was). It's probably easier in Gnome because its menus are simpler though.

Secondly, while there is only one FreeBSD, there are still multiple BSDs. FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD (and then there're obscure ones like Dragonfly and Wasabi). It's not particularly clear which distros are good for what. For OpenBSD, it's very clear (secure servers, firewalls, etc.). For FreeBSD and NetBSD it's not so clear. So the problem of choice is still present with BSD unices. So while it's a greater issue with Linux (what with its hundreds of obscure distros) it's still an issue.

Hopefully I didn't sound like a fanboy there, because I tried not to. :p
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Ubuntu seemed fairly nice from what I saw. Until, of course, I realized how evil my soundcard is. I should have just gone for the older but slightly more expensive Audigy 2...
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
Firstly, FreeBSD is not necessarily easy to install. I remember when I tried to install from a stable FreeBSD 5.x, it decided to bork out on me midway through for no reason I could discern. Installing a BSD is likely as hard as installing Slackware or Debian 3.0 (which isn't very hard from my perspective, but I'm biased).

Actually, unless you want to do something strange, its a no brainer--especially when you have the manual right there to handhold you through it. Sure, some Linux variants are easier to install, but FreeBSD RELEASE-* branches are pretty much guaranteed to work if you actually, you know, read the screen and the manual. You DO have to reference the manual though (the first time).

Quote
Plus it sounds like Sandwich's problem has more to do with KDE 4 years ago than anything else. I know for certain that changing resolution in Gnome or KDE are not an issue now (if it ever was). It's probably easier in Gnome because its menus are simpler though.

My take on that was that it was an X.org (or XF86, or whatever we're calling the project this month) configuration issue. The defaults always lack modelines, which means that the server always picks the most likely to be compatible resolution. I don't think I've ever changed my resolution from within X, with or without KDE running (I don't run GNOME, I find it a bit... annoying, but that's personal taste).

Quote

Secondly, while there is only one FreeBSD, there are still multiple BSDs. FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD (and then there're obscure ones like Dragonfly and Wasabi). It's not particularly clear which distros are good for what. For OpenBSD, it's very clear (secure servers, firewalls, etc.). For FreeBSD and NetBSD it's not so clear. So the problem of choice is still present with BSD unices. So while it's a greater issue with Linux (what with its hundreds of obscure distros) it's still an issue.

Lets leave out Wasabi and Firefly. They're new and niche and hardly anyone outside the OSS community knows they exist at all.

There are multiple BSDs, but anyone who uses BSD regularly will tell you: under the hood, its all the same BSD. This is the BSD selling point. Filesystem hierarchies are the same. Conventions for command line options are the same. System calls are the same. In fact, the BSD variants are more like Windows XP Home, Professional and 2k3 Server than they are like Linux's Mandriva, Slackware, Redhat/Fedora and Gentoo.

The breakdown goes like this:
OpenBSD is about  security security security. Even if it means sacrificing usability. The goal is to have everything as secure as possible out of the box, and leave it to the systems administrator to open what he needs.

NetBSD is about compatiblity. This version is slutty. It'll run on anything from your old Atari 2600, to your Xbox, to your toaster and some refrigerators. Chances are, if its got a printed circuit in it, and it doesn't run NetBSD now, it'll be ported sometime in the next fifte--oh wait, they just announced your hardware is now supported. ;)

FreeBSD is about that fine and beautiful balance between the sluttiness of NetBSD and the chaste and untouchable OpenBSD. The goal is a usuable, administrable system that you would deploy in a real world server room. Its not as secure out of the box as OpenBSD (but it could be) and it isn't ported to as many platforms as NetBSD (but it could be). Its got great support and an excellent community, though and its damned fine out of the box.

The beautiful thing about all the three major BSDs is the crosstalk. Security improvements in OpenBSD are pulled into FreeBSD and NetBSD all the time. Compatibility improvements are pulled from NetBSD into OpenBSD and FreeBSD regularly. And best of all, anytime some penguin figures out a way to make some new piece of hardware work for Linux, someone (if not immediately, then soon) ports it over to BSD.

Besides. We have the Daemon.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 10:21:53 pm by 440 »
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline BlackDove

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See, this is exactly why I can't use Linux.

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

Actually, unless you want to do something strange, its a no brainer--especially when you have the manual right there to handhold you through it.


Yeah, I would think so too. But by that metric Gentoo is just as easy to install as it shouldn't have any issues if you follow the manual word-for-word (which I did and was able to install Gentoo successfully). I don't think there're any non-geeks who will call Gentoo "easy to install" though, with its bootstrapping and compiling crap. :p

Quote

There are multiple BSDs, but anyone who uses BSD regularly will tell you: under the hood, its all the same BSD. This is the BSD selling point. Filesystem hierarchies are the same.


Yeah, this is definitely one of the places Linux distros need to standardize on. I get very annoyed when my ALSA config was in one place with Gentoo, but in a totally different place in Debian. Plus Gentoo usually sticks removable device mount points in /mnt, but Debian might stick them in /. Meh. :ick: (Though with Gnome/KDE Freedesktop.org's HAL makes it transparent for the user)

But this isn't a particularly big issue for a newbie. For the newbie the trouble comes even before they see filesystem hiearchy after all. So in that sense BSD still has the issue, though to a much lesser degree than with Linux distros.


Sandwich: There's not a whole lot that can be done by ranting about this here. None of us here are involved in making distro AFAIK and it's not like the distro makers could do anything about it. If you really want to try Linux, go ask someone about which distros are decent and nag them about configuring it too. Or you could go use FreeBSD.

Actually, the best thing you could do is get Mac OS X instead. Unix-based, pre-packaged, no big choices, and it looks much nicer than any Linux distro. Has slightly more gaming potential too. It's nice that you can choose to not have choices. :p
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 11:22:35 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze

Actually, the best thing you could do is get Mac OS X instead. Unix-based, pre-packaged, no big choices, and it looks much nicer than any Linux distro. Has slightly more gaming potential too. It's nice that you can choose to not have choices. :p
By next year, there will be all the choices one could want.  Now that Apple is moving to x86 processors, one will be able to dual- or triple-boot any OS one wants on their machines.  So OS X (best OS), Linux (most customisable), and Windows (largest application base) will all be able to run on one machine.  Besides, OS X can already run any X11-based apps, which includes most of the important Linux stuff.
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Re: Linux and gnubies:

It's not that Linux isn't yet as advanced as Windows. It's based on a totally different philosophy.
With Windows, the idea is that it just works. You don't have to know a damn thing about the hardware. However, the price you pay for this is usually about £150 for a new (bug-fixed?) version, and you're subject to Microsoft's whims.
With Linux, the idea is that you learn how to use your computer. Linux is a massive Swiss Army knife: you still have to know how to do things, but you're given tools to make it slightly more convenient. Occasionally, you have to fit a Windows-shaped peg into a round hole (ie. when installing some hardware), and a hammer won't work, so you need some of the more delicate tools for the job of subatomic restructuring.

For those who want Linux to be as easy to use as Windows: stick to Windows. Linux will never be that without compromising some basic principles.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I beg to differ. It is the Linux is not yet as technically advanced. Windows seperates the user from the minutae via taking care of them on its own, something that necessiates it be more advanced. Linux runs to the user for every little thing, which requires far less work.

It's like having a brick wall and a glass window. One is nice, reliable, and sturdy, and keeps stuff inside. The other breaks if you lean on it and subjects you to almost everything on the other side.
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Offline Martinus

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Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
I beg to differ. It is the Linux is not yet as technically advanced. Windows seperates the user from the minutae via taking care of them on its own, something that necessiates it be more advanced. Linux runs to the user for every little thing, which requires far less work.

It's like having a brick wall and a glass window. One is nice, reliable, and sturdy, and keeps stuff inside. The other breaks if you lean on it and subjects you to almost everything on the other side.

[color=66ff00]That's a bit of a poorly thought out argument. Claiming windows is as stable or more stable as linux is a fairly obvious gap in research.

The newer windows releases are about as stable as a good linux install, need I remind you of WinMe, Win98 and Win95? Linux has a far better uptime history (thought not as remarkable as BSD). I know people that have been running linux servers non-stop for years because it's possible to do a lot of installation and upgrading without needing to reboot unlike windows.

As for linux running to the user for everything, that's also the result of poor understanding, linux is far more verbose in it's error reporting. Linux error reports are often enough information on their own to diagnose and repair problems. Windows errors on the other hand are obfuscated and it's only through experimentation that you get to understand the issue.
Linux can be set up initially by stating parameters in readable text files which, if configured properly will allow the system to run with that configuration from that point forward. 'Set and forget' as they say.

You should do a bit more reading around the subject, you'll find that your  views on linux and how it compares to windows will change as a result and you might actually be impressed by linux's capabilities. :nod:


Regarding FreeBSD: The only issue I came across on my first installation attempt was a corrupted CD, on my second attempt I installed via FTP (brilliantly easy to set up thanks to the menu driven sysinstall) which worked immediately with X without needing any tweaks. I'd call that user friendly. :yes:
[/color]

 

Offline Fury

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I have used some linux distros along the years, yet I have never fully switched to linux even after I tried 3 times. There were always some problems that turned me away back to Windows.

1. Installation problems. Sure it has become a lot easier especially in the last year or so, many distros still have room for improvement but generally installation has become a lot easier.

2. Drivers. Typically an OS should be able to boot all the way to defaul graphical user interface. But this rarely seems to te the case with linux, usually old xfree86 or x.org or video drivers being the reason. Usually even more problems with audio drivers. And what about hardware accelerated video and audio working out of the box? Not a chance. And updating drivers is pain in the ass if the drivers are not found in the main repositiories.

3. Software. Annoyingly enough many softwares do not have any sort of graphical user interface. Last time with Ubuntu, I tried to find an easy ftp server software, finally found one but it did not have graphical user interface to see what the heck is happening right now. Only knew the process was running and someone was logged in but that was all. And installing software? Usually installing software that are not in the main repositories is pain in the ass.

And the fact that your favorite windows software may also have linux source available, your average joe user is going to go bollocks when he tries to compile working software out of the source tarballs. You're rarely as lucky as to get pre-compiled binaries if you don't use the most common distros such as red hat//fedora.


Linux just won't be able to win Windows when it comes to end-user friendliness anytime soon. You seriously need to learn to do stuff that can be considered to be geek-stuff and that no average user should need to do. But so far it has been unavoidable.

The fact that there is crapload of different linux distros is both the strenght and weakness of linux.

That said, I might give FreeBSD a go and see how it compares.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 03:03:03 am by 173 »

 

Offline Sandwich

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I hate to tell you guys, but all you "Check out this distro!" peeps are just reinforcing my point, as BD hinted at:

Quote
Originally posted by BlackDove
See, this is exactly why I can't use Linux.


My point, once again, is this: I (and this "I" stands for many, many people who would like to switch) don't want to choose. I don't want to decide between the vast number of distros, researching each one's featureset, compatability, etc etc.

Like them or not, Microsoft got it (mostly) right with XP's flavors: Home, or Pro. That's what Linux needs to become to have a chance at mainstream acceptance.

Now whether that comes through one or two distros pulling so far ahead of the rest of the pack that it's not even funny, or through some magical merger between all the distros, I don't know. But the current situation simply reeks of too much choice. And, let me reiterate for those of you who skimmed over this point before: It doesn't matter if there's a distro that fits my needs or not: the fact that I have to choose among the dozens out there is the problem.

Quote
Originally posted by Descenterace
Re: Linux and gnubies:

It's not that Linux isn't yet as advanced as Windows. It's based on a totally different philosophy.
With Windows, the idea is that it just works. You don't have to know a damn thing about the hardware. However, the price you pay for this is usually about £150 for a new (bug-fixed?) version, and you're subject to Microsoft's whims.
With Linux, the idea is that you learn how to use your computer. Linux is a massive Swiss Army knife: you still have to know how to do things, but you're given tools to make it slightly more convenient. Occasionally, you have to fit a Windows-shaped peg into a round hole (ie. when installing some hardware), and a hammer won't work, so you need some of the more delicate tools for the job of subatomic restructuring.

For those who want Linux to be as easy to use as Windows: stick to Windows. Linux will never be that without compromising some basic principles.


Let's try this:

[q]It's not that Firefox isn't yet as advanced as IE. It's based on a totally different philosophy.
With IE, the idea is that it just works. You don't have to know a damn thing about the web. However, the price you pay for this is usually about 15 new bug-fixes a month, and you're subject to Microsoft's whims.
With Firefox, the idea is that you learn how to use the web. Firefox is a massive Swiss Army knife: you still have to know how to do things, but you're given tools to make it slightly more convenient. Occasionally, you have to fit a IE-shaped site into a round FF hole (ie. when visiting some online banking site), and a hammer won't work, so you need some of the more delicate tools for the job of subatomic restructuring.

For those who want Firefox to be as easy to use as IE: stick to IE. Firefox will never be that without compromising some basic principles. [/q]

Now, how does that sound? The Windows-to-IE conversion works beautifully, but the Linux-to-Firefox parts are somewhat inaccurate, wouldn't you say?

Now, why's that so? Both are open-source, both have masses of computer geeks adding, tweaking, and ootimizing things... why is Firefox such a big success, while Linux is - for most people, people like me - an utter failure?

I'll tell you why. When I install Firefox on some non-computer person's computer, it just works. There's no choice involved... that only comes if the person chooses to do so.

Now I realize that the comparison between a mere browser and the software that runs your entire system is a bit unfair, but the point still stands. Firefox succeded because it's simple, a no-brainer. And if anyone is deluded into thinking that the majority of people who use computers have brains, well, think again.
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Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
Yeah, Linux-tan is much better. :D

What the ****?  That's one messed up OS-tan.  It scares me.  It's like whoever drew it just decided to throw a bunch of random junk onto a loli.

Quote
Originally posted by BlackDove
Oh ****.

You opened Shrike's door.
I lubs you too.  It's not like I have anything to add to this conversation; I use Win2k because it works for me and it runs all the programs I want it to.  Inertia.  I have no need to get some other OS.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor

That's a bit of a poorly thought out argument. Claiming windows is as stable or more stable as linux is a fairly obvious gap in research.


And you have entirely missed my point. For I have made no such claim. If anything, one would expect Windows, with more advanced and more complicated programming, to be somewhat less unstable for the very reason there is more that can go wrong, because it is not a bare-bones program that requires user input for every action it takes. (And therefore, does not insulate the user from their own screwups to nearly the same extent.)

Is a slighty more unstable OS a worthwhile price to pay for not being troubled by minutae? The answer of the general populace so far seems to be yes.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 03:43:26 am by 2191 »
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Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]:wtf: How else is this supposed to be interpreted?[/color]
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
I beg to differ. It is the Linux is not yet as technically advanced.


[color=66ff00]If you intended to make another point then you need to word your arguments better. I see you making two points in that post:

1. Windows is more advanced than linux because it makes things easier for the user.

2. Windows is more stable than linux because it hides everything from the user whereas linux is flakey due to its transparency.

I don't see any other meaning to what you said unless you left out a handful of sarcasm smilies.
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