[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Sandwich


 But the prominent title is task-oriented, not application-oriented.

Same with OpenOffice. Their word processor's name? It doesn't even have a name. It's invoked by "Text Document" in the program menu. Same with their "Excel" ("Spreadsheet"), etc.

You don't know what you're talking about. Most Linux distros organize their menus like that. Mandriva, for example, will label menu items by function (e.g. Movie Player, Text Editor, etc.). Gnome, one of the Linux desktops, always organizes programs into categories. Applications that are a part of the Gnome distribution (e.g. totem, gedit, gcalctool, epiphany) are all labeled by their function in the Gnome menu (this in on *any* distro). Even Debian's menu system (used in conjunction with Gnome/KDE's menus) will organize items into categories of applications so you can easily tell which programs do what.

Perhaps you should actually try using Linux rather than just pulling fallacies out of nowhere? Your arguments may have some truth to them, but you don't have any solid evidence because you haven't actually used Linux.

Anyway, I didn't intend to post such a long thing again. I was just gonna link to this /. article relevant to the discussion at hand.

I've posted this over and over: It is technically infeasible to reduce the number of distros. It just can't happen. Redhat's CEO is being realistic and is trying to use that as an advantage.

 We used to have a Windows server, then switched to Linux. This created some fundemental issues for me:

You need to get a new sysadmin then. It's not the OS's job to take over for the sysadmin, that's a dangerous school of thought.

Speaking of linux (again), does any of you know how to set-up firewire networking between two computers? It's simple enough to set up in Windows, but I haven't even managed to get linux to recognize firewire as a network connection, let alone make a working network.

What distribution? From what I've read distros like Mandriva will do this automagically. In Mandriva there's a control center option that will enable/disable Firewire networking.

When doing it manually it just sounds like you need to A) If eth1394 is compiled, load the module B) If you don't have it, compile it into the kernel. Then you can use standard tools like ifconfig to deal with the interface.

These links might help:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=26192
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-378168-highlight-eth1394.html?sid=1d5d61b0a91e35b82d295421f42229a8

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Kamikaze


You don't know what you're talking about. Most Linux distros organize their menus like that. Mandriva, for example, will label menu items by function (e.g. Movie Player, Text Editor, etc.). Gnome, one of the Linux desktops, always organizes programs into categories. Applications that are a part of the Gnome distribution (e.g. totem, gedit, gcalctool, epiphany) are all labeled by their function in the Gnome menu (this in on *any* distro). Even Debian's menu system (used in conjunction with Gnome/KDE's menus) will organize items into categories of applications so you can easily tell which programs do what.

Perhaps you should actually try using Linux rather than just pulling fallacies out of nowhere? Your arguments may have some truth to them, but you don't have any solid evidence because you haven't actually used Linux.

I was referring to all the K**** apps I saw cluttering the menus of Knoppix, the only Linux distro I ever used for more than 10 minutes. I didn't recall the other distros I'd tried (granted, years ago) as being all that different.

[mikhael]

That "K-" thing is KDE. Just like lots of Gnome apps are "G-" stuff. Its an identifier in the same way lots of of stuff for years was "winSomesuch" and "macTheotherthing".

I still don't get the problem. If your point is that Linux fails before Windows because Windows is n00b friendly, you're patently, demonstrably wrong. I spend time all day every day explaining Windows to people. Its all cryptic until someone explains it. Explaining things like what that little underscore icon does and the odd diagonal figure eight does and why there's stuff hidden under the funky picture in the upper left, why do "menus" pull down, instead of opening like...well, menus? What's a window, I see a box? What do you mean click on the screen? Click on the desktop?! I am, my mouse is on the desktop! It just goes on.

No one is born understanding Windows, or OSX, or XFree w/ KDE/GNOME/Windowmaker/OLWM/whatever. And none of them are easy for a new user to understand.

[mikhael]

From the thread about Media Players:

Hrm. Let me see what I can make of this. A bit OT, though

Originally posted by Sandwich (adjusted by Mik to make a point)
A "Single Unified Linux" is, IMO, a bad idea - or, at the very least, a hard-to-implement properly one. Think about it (I had to think about this very thing recently when designing machines to be webservers and firewalls): when serving webpages, a server needs to push pages almost promiscuously. But when acting as a firewall, promiscuous data trasfer is less acceptable.

This is why I use OpenBSD for firewalls, and SuSE Linux for webservers.

But that's just me.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by mikhael
That "K-" thing is KDE. Just like lots of Gnome apps are "G-" stuff. Its an identifier in the same way lots of of stuff for years was "winSomesuch" and "macTheotherthing".

I still don't get the problem. If your point is that Linux fails before Windows because Windows is n00b friendly, you're patently, demonstrably wrong.

Like I said earlier:

Originally posted by Sandwich
But you all seem to have missed my original point:

While Linux works great for tinkerers and those with time to delve into it, that description does not fit the average Joe Schmoe off the street. Therefore, IF the Linux community makes it a goal to enroach on Microsoft's hold of such computer users, something needs to change. If not, no problemo.

Kapiche?

Please read that this time. I am not bashing Linux for having a problem among the techie group of users. It's great to be set up as a firewall, server, etc. That's not the point. My point I made quite clear in my quoted post 2 lines up, and I will not repeat myself. Read it.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Sandwich

Please read that this time. I am not bashing Linux for having a problem among the techie group of users. It's great to be set up as a firewall, server, etc. That's not the point. My point I made quite clear in my quoted post 2 lines up, and I will not repeat myself. Read it.

Yeah, and that "something" doesn't have anything to do variety of distros. Linux will have to be installed on computers out of the box from, say, Dell or HP to compete with Windows in that market.

You also don't realize there isn't any single entity you can call the "Linux community". Some companies, like Mandriva or Novell, want to spread Linux to everyone. Many of the users don't really care. Desktop software developers probably want Linux to spread for desktop systems, but I'm sure that embedded Linux kernel hackers don't care much.

So you can't generalize and say "The Linux Community doesn't care!". There are some entities that care and have quite an investment in it. If you look at their distros (e.g. Suse) you'll see that they have graphical configuration tools, control panels, nice looking installers that helps new users.

[mrduckman]

Red Hat too. Though I'd rather use Debian myself.

A linux distro seems more oriented to what you are going to do with it.
For instance, I'd use a light-weight distro, like debian or slackware for a server rather than using  Red Hat/Fedora or Suse. The GUI is very useless in servers. Specially if used remotely.

By the way, Shanah Tovah

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
You also don't realize there isn't any single entity you can call the "Linux community". Some companies, like Mandriva or Novell, want to spread Linux to everyone. Many of the users don't really care. Desktop software developers probably want Linux to spread for desktop systems, but I'm sure that embedded Linux kernel hackers don't care much.

So you can't generalize and say "The Linux Community doesn't care!". There are some entities that care and have quite an investment in it. If you look at their distros (e.g. Suse) you'll see that they have graphical configuration tools, control panels, nice looking installers that helps new users.

Ok, I learned something new today then. Now, take me as an example of the standard person in regards to Linux... all those things I had assumed, or didn't know, etc? Yeah. Address those issues; that's where people are ignorant about what Linux can and can't do for them.

Originally posted by mrduckman
By the way, Shanah Tovah

Toda rabah!

[mikhael]

Originally posted by which one of us, Sandwich?


Like I said earlier:

I still don't get the problem. If your point is that Linux fails before Windows because Windows is n00b friendly, you're patently, demonstrably wrong. I spend time all day every day explaining Windows to people. Its all cryptic until someone explains it. Explaining things like what that little underscore icon does and the odd diagonal figure eight does and why there's stuff hidden under the funky picture in the upper left, why do "menus" pull down, instead of opening like...well, menus? What's a window, I see a box? What do you mean click on the screen? Click on the desktop?! I am, my mouse is on the desktop! It just goes on.

No one is born understanding Windows, or OSX, or XFree w/ KDE/GNOME/Windowmaker/OLWM/whatever. And none of them are easy for a new user to understand.

Please read that this time. I am not bashing you for having a problem whatever it is you have a problem with. My point I made quite clear AGAIN RIGHT HERE. Read it.

[WMCoolmon]

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/11/2341210&tid=185&tid=218

[Sandwich]

Ok, to summarize:

Me: I'm right!
Mik: No, I'm right!
Me: No, you're right!
Mik: No, you're right!


Does that basically cover it?

[mikhael]

No, Mike. You're wrong because your complaint is fundamnentally flawed. I've been trying to get it across to you but I'm failing. I guess I should give up.

[Darkage]

This discussion makes me smile:D

[Sandwich]

My complaint is a simple one, and is based on a conditional: IF there is a desire for Linux OSes to have a chance at replacing the industry-standard Micorsoft OS on the computers of non-techies around the world (not talking about new users), then something needs to change in the Linux world/area/whatever to make it more appealing.

That's it. For geeks like you and me (if I had the time), Linux rocks. It's super-mega-ultra customizable, far for flexible than Windows, etc etc etc, ok? I'm not bashing *nix.

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]But linux is making a good push at the noob end of the market. Linspire, Mandriva and all of the other GUI centric distros are testament to this.

The number of variations is not a crippling factor, quite the opposite really. You'll find that each distro has certain nuances that allow a user to pick the one that's most intuitive. This follows true with the GUI orientated ones too. The thing to understand is this should only be seen as a gateway into understanding and using linux. The very fact that so many options are available infers that to take advantage of them you need to be willing to put some work in.

(by GUI orientated I mean GUI configured).

As for idiot friendly, if that's really the goal then I'd tell them to run out and buy a Mac, lack of knowledge is not an excuse when it comes to PC's. If you buy a PC then you had better understand that some level of learning is required, otherwise  if it 'breaks' (i.e. stops working a certain way) which it is almost certain to do. Then you're buggered.

Everything I know about PC's came through experimentation, reading and asking questions, it has allowed me to increase my understanding and free myself at the cost of having to learn. I think of it in the following way: The more you learn, the more value you get from your PC, both in terms of available software and from a possibly moral stance. You choose to let your PC work for you or you become complacent and lose the ability to use it effectively.
[/color]

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Sandwich
My complaint is a simple one, and is based on a conditional: IF there is a desire for Linux OSes to have a chance at replacing the industry-standard Micorsoft OS on the computers of non-techies around the world (not talking about new users), then something needs to change in the Linux world/area/whatever to make it more appealing.
 

IMO, some Linux distros are pretty good at being non-techy friendly. I suggest you try out the Suse Live DVD sometime. I just tried it out last night, and it was pretty easy to set things up. The livedvd uses bootsplash so you get a pretty loading screen on boot rather than lines of init script output. The graphical control center is basically a click-and-autodetect system, but it also offered quite a bit of optional advanced options for power users too.

http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/downloads/ftp/mirrors_isos.html

[Fury]

I wish Apple would actually sell their OSX to PC's as well. Now that MACs use Intel's CPU's, it is not that far fetched.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Kamikaze


IMO, some Linux distros are pretty good at being non-techy friendly. I suggest you try out the Suse Live DVD sometime. I just tried it out last night, and it was pretty easy to set things up. The livedvd uses bootsplash so you get a pretty loading screen on boot rather than lines of init script output. The graphical control center is basically a click-and-autodetect system, but it also offered quite a bit of optional advanced options for power users too.

http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/downloads/ftp/mirrors_isos.html

The lines of init script output are good, as they let you know it's actually working. If I could, I'd set Windows to do that.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf
The lines of init script output are good, as they let you know it's actually working. If I could, I'd set Windows to do that.

You can press a key to get the init script output on Suse and most other distros using bootsplash.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Sandwich
My complaint is a simple one, and is based on a conditional: IF there is a desire for Linux OSes to have a chance at replacing the industry-standard Micorsoft OS on the computers of non-techies around the world (not talking about new users), then something needs to change in the Linux world/area/whatever to make it more appealing.

That's it. For geeks like you and me (if I had the time), Linux rocks. It's super-mega-ultra customizable, far for flexible than Windows, etc etc etc, ok? I'm not bashing *nix.

Excellent. Your complaint is invalid because its wrong, firstly because of your continued recourse to trivia (being customizable is not even at issue, etc etc etc, ok?) and secondly you're factually incorrect.

There's already something (several somethigns actually) being done to make Linux acceptable to non-geeks. There's even a book (Linux for Non-Geeks) that addresses the issue.

The problem is not non-geeks though. The problem is not non-computer-users (like my grandmother, or whomever). The problem is the entrenched Windows user-base. And guess what? there's even something for them. Its even been pointed out in this thread at least TWICE. You can make Linux look, and act, almost completely like Windows. In fact, many of the intro Linux distros come configured to work that way out of the box.

DO NOT even say "but there should only be one" or "the user shouldn't have to pick" again. By considering *nix in the first place, THE USER IS MAKING A CHOICE. Asking them to pick a specific distro is neither burdensome nor unreasonable.