[Turnsky]

Well, with the rumoured prospect of the fs2 source code coming out, i guess full blown TC's would be on the horizon.

[karajorma]

 

Originally posted by sandwich:
- Two, Dyson spheres must have a radius equal to the distance of any given inhabitable planet from the sun. For Sol, a Dyson sphere would be 1 AU from the sun. For a Shivan system, a sphere would be at the distance that a Shivan-habitable planet would be (an idea I doubt is realistic, as Shivans don't use planets...).

Did you consider the fact that the reason shivans don`t use planets is because they have dyson spheres?
 Why would the shivans need to invade planets in other star systems. They probably haven`t finished inhabiting their systems. All they need to do to planets is bombard enemy cities from space (which is exactly what they did!)

 Someone else claimed that shivans are zero G creatures but it's pretty obvious from looking at a shivan that it isn`t.
 Shivans have muscles all over their bodies that wouldn`t be important in a zero G creature. In fact looking at a shivan it looks like a creature from a more massive planet than earth not less.  

[TDM/JM]

Agreed, good observation. Of course, what might have happened was a bioengineering agenda at some time in the past -- to create an exoframe that could operate efficiently in any environment. Which means they could have evolved/been manufactured in zeegee, or they could have e/bm on a heavy planet and then been engineered for zeegee. (What really happened, most likely, is that this was an minor inconsistency that escaped the Volition writers and art folks. No offense, it happens.)

But the overall point is that the Shivans remain a mystery, which means you could take them in a lot of directions, in terms of a plot.

Ascraeus

[Ace]

My only problem with this concept presented here is that the Andarta are not an elemental force on an equal plane with the Shivans. Yes, you may have written them with advanced technology, but the point is that they are not *alien* enough, there doesn't seem to be a need to stretch your thinking to try to understand what they possibly could be at all.

Shivans requiring Dyson spheres also seems slightly odd, but could be worked out in theory if Shivans are limited to using solar power. (since a Dyson sphere is meant to gain maximum energy efficientcy from a star)

The tie between mass and sub-space nodes means that Shivans would be more interested in Neutron Stars however, since they contain more "node clusters."

Now a Dyson Sphere could be the result of an attempt to reconfigure mass for new nodes coupled with using the surface area for advanced forms of Knossos technology...

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Su-tehp]

 

Originally posted by Ace:
The tie between mass and sub-space nodes means that Shivans would be more interested in Neutron Stars however, since they contain more "node clusters."

Whoah! Where did you find THIS info? The only "node cluster" I've seen is the three jump node cluster in Alpha Centauri in the FS1 mission titled "Exodus", the mission where you have to protect several supply and refugee convoys just after the SD Lucifer destroyed Vasuda Prime.

Where did you get the info that node clusters form near neutron stars? As far as I know, NONE of the systems on the FS map are neutron stars, nor have I found any official info from the FS1 and FS2 games that says something to that effect.

Ace, how do you know this?

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FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God

[joek]

 

Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Whoah! Where did you find THIS info? The only "node cluster" I've seen is the three jump node cluster in Alpha Centauri in the FS1 mission titled "Exodus", the mission where you have to protect several supply and refugee convoys just after the SD Lucifer destroyed Vasuda Prime.

Where did you get the info that node clusters form near neutron stars? As far as I know, NONE of the systems on the FS map are neutron stars, nor have I found any official info from the FS1 and FS2 games that says something to that effect.

Ace, how do you know this?

It's really just a (I'm wanting to say hypothesis, but it's where you get one piece of information dervived from another (like A=B & B=C therefore A=C))...

In FS we're told that in-system jumps need the gravity well of a star. And interstellular nodes form between stars. Since these opennings into subspace require a gravity well, it can be assumed (without making an a** out of u and me   ) that the greater the gravity well, more nodes can be formed.

However though, I wouldn't say that neutron stars have more nodes, because they don't exactly have more mass than the stars who's death created them (although they could have more nodes than a regular sun-like star).

In my campaign, I'm going to make mention that the black holes at the center of galaxies contain intergalactic nodes.  

Joe.

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www.joek.com
Revelations: A FS2 Campaign

[This message has been edited by joek (edited 11-07-2001).]

[Su-tehp]

 

Originally posted by joek:
In FS we're told that in-system jumps need the gravity well of a star. And interstellular nodes form between stars. Since these opennings into subspace require a gravity well, it can be assumed (without making an a** out of u and me   ) that the greater the gravity well, more nodes can be formed.

You might be assuming too much, Joe. Rather than extrapolating from A to B to C, you seem to be reasoning by analogy. The vast majority of jump nodes form and destabilize with nanoseconds. It is only a small handful that somehow stabilize for years (maybe decades or centuries). (This is all found in the "Subspace" entry in the FS2 Technical database.

How and why these nodes "naturally" stabilize remains unknown (Artificially stabilizing them can be done with a Knossos device, no problem.)

But jump nodes are not easy for the GTVA to find and map. Just because one star system may have 3 mapped/known nodes and another may have 4 mapped/known nodes and a third system may have only one mapped/known node has nothing to do with the star's gravity. It's only determinant on whether the GTVA has been able to discover/map the nodes.

Who knows? Maybe there is an unknown jump node in Alpha Centauri that leads right back to Sol and the GTVA could have used it to return to Earth even just after the SD Lucifer collapsed the Delta Serpentis node, but for one thing: the GTVA never knew it was there.

This is another reason why the Shivans are so dangerous; we know that they are more adept at finding jump nodes than we are. The Shivans managed to greatly outmaneuver the Terrans and Vasudans during the start of the First Great War by using undiscovered nodes in Ross 128, Ikeya and Vega, I think. (Petrarch even mentions this in his final Command Briefing near the end of FS2.)

FS 2.9 idea: Once the GTVA manages to capture the SJ Anhuradha in FS 2.9, the Terrans and Vasudans manage to get a hold of this jump node mapping technology. Certainly at the very least, the GTVA will have to acquire a map of Shivan-Andarta space in order to know where they're going to send the taskforce. Sending the GTVA taskforce to do a reconnoiter in enemy territory is one thing, but sending it into enemy territory completely blind is damn well another...

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FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God

[jonskowitz]

 

Originally posted by Su-tehp:
This is another reason why the Shivans are so dangerous; we know that they are more adept at finding jump nodes than we are. The Shivans managed to greatly outmaneuver the Terrans and Vasudans during the start of the First Great War by using undiscovered nodes in Ross 128, Ikeya and Vega, I think. (Petrarch even mentions this in his final Command Briefing near the end of FS2.)

Don't forget that we know for a fact that they fought a war in this area of space at least once before.  So most of the data on jump nodes already existed for the Shivans, making thier maneuvering even easier.



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I told you that It would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...

[aldo_14]

 

Originally posted by karajorma:
Did you consider the fact that the reason shivans don`t use planets is because they have dyson spheres?
 Why would the shivans need to invade planets in other star systems. They probably haven`t finished inhabiting their systems. All they need to do to planets is bombard enemy cities from space (which is exactly what they did!)

 Someone else claimed that shivans are zero G creatures but it's pretty obvious from looking at a shivan that it isn`t.
 Shivans have muscles all over their bodies that wouldn`t be important in a zero G creature. In fact looking at a shivan it looks like a creature from a more massive planet than earth not less.  

Possibly the Shivans were forced from their planets in the first place... maybe they had to do it to themselves to survive, and in the process, they became warped physically and mentally and evolved into the genocidal race they are now.

[LAW ENFORCER]

Thats like saying what you said but in a warped and genocidle way becasue you have been warped having to use TS.

[LAW ENFORCER]

Err... entierly possoble then...

[aldo_14]

 

Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER:
Err... entierly possoble then...

Exactly....

 

I've been working on the premise that the Shivans were forced into space because it was too dangerous for them to try and live on a planet - that subspace was their best refuge / attack point.

The way i differ from TDM/JMs' plan is that I have the Shivans as being unable to build up any reasonable force without being forced to fight with huge losses.... that both the Shivans and the Nightmares have been warped by an eon of conflict, to be less than animals, more a primal destrucitve entity.... like 2 stars colliding.

I don't think the Shivans takes stars/... i think they kill them.  And they won't stop till everything is dead in the Galaxy, and those beyond.  And neither wil the Nightmares.

[Su-tehp]

Aldo, do you have a website for your campaign? I want to see what you've come up with so far.

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God

[Ace]

Su-Tehp the correlation is that areas with heavier gravity wells require less energy for intra-system artificial jumps. This states that the "micro sub-space nodes" are more stable due to this.

It is only logical that since a natural node is simply a form of enlarged "micro node", that energy requirements are similarly less and so more of these nodes are easily acessable without the use of Knossos type technology.

Now simply a neutron star or similar dense object may not be enough, and I highly doubt "galactic nodes" exist.

This is all logical deduction from canon, mass is tied to stability of the "smaller nodes" Knossos technology is a bridge between these nodes and "natural nodes" by strengthening them. If "small nodes" are stronger with mass, then natural nodes are stronger or more prevalent with proper mass distribution in a local or galactic scale.

Edit: If you need more "proof" then this, go talk to Mike Breault or another writer at Volition.  

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 11-08-2001).]

[TDM/JM]

 

Originally posted by Su-tehp:
FS 2.9 idea: Once the GTVA manages to capture the SJ Anhuradha in FS 2.9, the Terrans and Vasudans manage to get a hold of this jump node mapping technology. Certainly at the very least, the GTVA will have to acquire a map of Shivan-Andarta space in order to know where they're going to send the taskforce. Sending the GTVA taskforce to do a reconnoiter in enemy territory is one thing, but sending it into enemy territory completely blind is damn well another...

Plundering the Anuradha's quantum computer network gets the GTVA a lot of different things, including memetic and personality constructs of other races and individuals that the Shivans have encountered over the previous 250K years. Bosch's construct is in there, too . . . . along with requisite information on technologies, systems, nodes, etc. So there's nothing blind about the GTVA's incursion into Shivan space; they merely see through the glass darkly.  

Ace's point is pretty much my understanding of the node thing -- stellar gravity wells are local distortions in the underlying geometry of space, and one effect of this "roiling" is the creation of large numbers of micronodes -- which could be compared to bubbles in liquid that had been disturbed.

Portals stabilize collapsed nodes, or ramp up micronodes into usable phenomenon. The stability of a micronode means that they are much more common across the universe; the real problem is identifying suitable ones. It follows that micronodes exist in places where nodes would be rare or nonexistent.

Ascraeus



[This message has been edited by TDM/JM (edited 11-08-2001).]

[aldo_14]

 

Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Aldo, do you have a website for your campaign? I want to see what you've come up with so far.

Storyline details there are a bit sparse, but;

Siggy
|
V

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Searching for the very souls who've already been told

RECIPROCITY[/url]

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ICQ: 119819902

[Su-tehp]

Aldo, check your siggy; the Reciprocity website is down  

 

Originally posted by Ace:
Su-Tehp the correlation is that areas with heavier gravity wells require less energy for intra-system artificial jumps. This states that the "micro sub-space nodes" are more stable due to this.

It is only logical that since a natural node is simply a form of enlarged "micro node", that energy requirements are similarly less and so more of these nodes are easily acessable without the use of Knossos type technology.

Now simply a neutron star or similar dense object may not be enough, and I highly doubt "galactic nodes" exist.

This is all logical deduction from canon, mass is tied to stability of the "smaller nodes" Knossos technology is a bridge between these nodes and "natural nodes" by strengthening them. If "small nodes" are stronger with mass, then natural nodes are stronger or more prevalent with proper mass distribution in a local or galactic scale.

Yeah, this makes sense to me, I think. Just wanted the clarification.

As for your statement about "galatic nodes", do you mean jump nodes that could lead to other galaxies? (I think you're right about them; they probably don't exist, but a Knossos might be able to extend a jump range reach that far. Bosch even implies it in one of his monologues when he says that the nebula is thousands, if not billions, of light-years from Earth...)

 

Originally posted by Ace:
If you need more "proof" then this, go talk to Mike Breault or another writer at Volition.    

Fair enough.  


------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-09-2001).]

[Su-tehp]

 

Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Ace's point is pretty much my understanding of the node thing -- stellar gravity wells are local distortions in the underlying geometry of space, and one effect of this "roiling" is the creation of large numbers of micronodes -- which could be compared to bubbles in liquid that had been disturbed.

And like any bubble in boiling liquid, the vast majority of these (micro)nodes pop/destabilize in only a few nanoseconds, while only a small handful (AKA "stable/regular" jump nodes) stabilize for centuries or millenia (as per the "Subspace" entry in the FS2 Technical database).

Yeah, this makes sense, too.

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God

[aldo_14]

 

Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Aldo, check your siggy; the Reciprocity website is down    

 Fair enough.    

******  me....  
 http://uk.geocities.com/gunnery_control  

should work - need to dig around the site a bit, though.

(EDIT - that works - wow, never though that word would be censored.... i'll try again - ******  )



[This message has been edited by aldo_14 (edited 11-09-2001).]

[Sandwich]

*bump*

What's the latest, TDM/JM?  

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