[Stryke 9]

Can't exactly blame them for not feeling very sorry for us... Reasons why aside, if something you percieved as the embodiment of evil and cause of all your misfortunes got it in the nuts, would you be crying over it?

[Pez]

 

Originally posted by sandwich:
B) It's not only the Jerusalem Post that reported the celebrations - all the news agencies caught it on the first day. However, what the world didn't see was videos of the PA policemen parrticipating in the celebrations. So while Arafat sent "condolences", his men were celebrating the slaughter.

I don't doubt a second that some palestinans and even policemen celebrating. I just thought it would be interesting to see what a palestinian paper would report about the celebration.

Pez

[Martinus]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:
The world is an evil thing.

"I teach you the overman. Man is something to be overcome."  - (Thus spake Zarathustra, Prologue, Ch 3) - Nietzshe

If this is what you think Kazan I can only feel sorry for you. I have always believed that our race has a fundamental want to be peaceful and benevolent.

I may be just idealistic but I can only hope.

[Kellan]

Yes. Once some sense of balance is given to the world someday, maybe we can move towards proper and lasting peace.

Also, having read a great deal from all manner of commentators following these attacks, I have found someone (on the recommendation of others) who embodies retaliation, reconstruction and humanity combined. The essays concerned are  http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html  there. I recommend that you go and read them.

Oh, and check out the forum too, because some important issues are voiced and debated in a rational, measured manner.

--Kellan

[This message has been edited by Kellan (edited 09-16-2001).]

[Sandwich]

Stryke 9 - I agree with you 100% on this.

Pez, I couldn't find any online PA papers that had back issues - at least, not any in English. :-/ I should have liked to see what they said about it, too.

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Kazan]

 

Originally posted by Maeglamor:
fundamental want to be peaceful and benevolent.

you're diluted - we're a predatory species


------------------
"Why Climb it?" - "Because it's there."

"God is dead." - Nietzsche
-----------------
FreeSpace 2: The Babylon Project Effects Nerd and Programmer.
Alliance Productions

[Kellan]

I'm sure that we can imagine, given the grim reality of Stryke 9's comments, which I can't help but agree with either.

I'm reading an article from the Washington Post now (I got hold of a printed copy) that focuses on Arab and Israeli children. One Palestian boy (13) says "We're happy about suicide bombings....I say it's okay whether Israeli kids or soldiers of old people get killed...because they're occupying land that doesn't belong to them."

At the same time the article says that the children's history books say that the Holocaust was overplayed (hah, hardly - 6 million goes into 5,000 1,200 times, remember) and that the objective of the 1948 War of Independence was for Israel to "seize Palestinian lands....and exterminate the original inhabitants".

With that kind of systematic propaganda, even in school books how can you blame the kids for celebrating? They've been lied to by all their elders; it's Mum and Dad you look out for - but then they've been indoctrinated by their parents...and so on.

However, one Jewish boy, also thirteen says that "Even if they kill all of us, then the last living Jew will drop a bomb on them..."

A fairly horrific scenario, I am sure that you will agree, for all concerned. It seems clear to me that in many ways beyond the mere physical, both Palestinians and Israelis are the victims. It's too early to turn attention to the striking similarities in the background to the WTC bombings yet without just being inflammatory, so I suggest the conflict in Ireland as another similar reference point. Now I do know a bit more about that than Israel or America, being a person of Irish descent living in England.

--Kellan

[aldo_14]

 

Originally posted by Pez:
I know that Sweden offered 70 man with trained search dogs. USA had/wanted 24 hours to reply but they never replied.

Pez

UK offered a trained disaster recovery team - one of the best in the world - which had worked in many major eathquake sites....also bear in mind the travel restictions on air flight at the time.

I think the main reason America doesn't want (rather, accept) this help, simply to send out the message that, 'whatever you throw at us, we can handle it (and we will have justice)'.

which, in all fairness, is a good message to send, especially for national pride.  i'd expect America to have excellent disaster control teams, anyway, given the threat of earthquakes, etc.

It's not like places in Africa, etc, where there isn't the funding.

On the other hand, in Europe we delayed the european mathces as a mark of respect. Although this was good for Rangers (my team), as we are appealing agianst having to play in Degestan, I'd have to disagree with it, as it shows that normal life can be disrupted by these acts... I feel that it may send the wrong message.

[Martinus]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:

you're diluted - we're a predatory species

In which case you're a mindless automoton, we are able to exceed our 'design specifications'. We were not designed to fly or exist in vaccum but we endeavor to overcome all obstacles.

[Kazan]

 

Originally posted by Maeglamor:
In which case you're a mindless automoton, we are able to exceed our 'design specifications'. We were not designed to fly or exist in vaccum but we endeavor to overcome all obstacles.

'mindless automoton' my arse.. if i were a mindles automoton i would be taking orders, not breaking orders.

We don't fly - we have machines that fly, and carry us.

We don't exist in a vaccum, we build a machine that can and has a pressurized atmosphere in it so it can carry us.

These are not exceeding our 'design specifications'. These change nothing about our basic impulses: Territorialism, Tribal Affiliation (don't take the word 'tribal' litterally), Reproduction, eating, competition

[Martinus]

Please note that at no point in the above statement did I say that we either exist in vaccum or fly of our own accord the only fact that I stated was that we endeavor to overcome all obstacles. You are being far too literal and relying on making me out to be simple minded to make any kind of argument. If you need an example I could use your point on:

'We don't fly - we have machines that fly, and carry us.'

If I were to use your literalistic approach then I could point out that those machines don't actually fly, they require a human to control every aspect of their operation and therefore as their own entity are even less capable of air travel than we are. We could go on for hours attempting to point out every single ambiguity but you have full knowledge of what I mean or perhaps you are not so intellegent as you consider yourself to be.

Secondly to claim you are not an automoton simply because you don't follow orders, you break them is also a little confusing. An automoton carrys out the function it is designed to do, if it breaks a set of rules to carry it out it is simply a result of it's actions.
Since you believe in our natural predatory instincts I can only conclude that you live your life completely true to those beliefs, so you are either an automoton carrying out your function or you need to consider what you are actually writing before you write it.

Yes we do have basic impulses, that is part of our 'design specification' if we only carry out these functions then we never exceed these specifications. Give me an example of anyone who does actually act entirely on instinctive impulses. Everything we do that is not based on these impulses is an example of our breaking design specifications.


Note that I got the entire way through this without once requiring profanity to make my point. Profanity is best used in comedy not to try and convince someone that you're correct.

[Kazan]

you failed pyschology didn't you

------------------
"Why Climb it?" - "Because it's there."

"God is dead." - Nietzsche
-----------------
FreeSpace 2: The Babylon Project Effects Nerd and Programmer.
Alliance Productions

[Martinus]

 

Originally posted by Maeglamor:
relying on making me out to be simple minded to make any kind of argument

As usual you use a quick stabbing remark with no explaination and have given weight to what I just quoted.

Perhaps I should use that old piece of wisdom 'never argue with a person who knows that they are right' and stop trying to make a point to someone who is not willing to listen.

Only when you know what this means and apply it will you be able to have a truely non-biased view.

[Kazan]

when i'm not specific it means one thing: the entire thing you just said is ALL wrong, it would be pointless to pick out individual errors because it's all erronious

[Martinus]

Oh well *Maeglamor shrugs and gives up*

You win.

[Fineus]

Guys, Kazan in particular - grow the hell up or this gets owned. I don't want to given it's nature, but if your so stupid as to let this of all threads turn into a flame war then it'll get owned like any other.

[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 09-16-2001).]

[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Thunder:
...a flame war...

Gosh, this kind of reasoned, calm "flame war" is actually kinda refreshing compared to the l33tsp34k or ALL-CAPS junk usually encountered.  

[Darkage]

hmmmm....911 emergency line turn it around and you get 11-9 and that was a tueseday.They took the US it's emergency line as that date to attack.Please tell me if this already has been discust.

[Kazan]

the way we aermicans write our dates you dont have to do any turning
MM-DD-YYYY
9-11-2001

[Kellan]

It's actually more significant that in Islamic numeric code, Osama bin Laden comes out as 9 1 1. Tuesday was also the anniversary of the signing of the Camp David Accord.

I've been doing my homework.