Author Topic: Loki  (Read 45263 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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The Athena was finished, dude. By either Trashman or Turambar.

It was Trashy. And no offense to him, but that model wasn't too hot.

None taken.. It's not as detailed as other HTL models out there (when it comes to polycount). Still, it turned out nice :D
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Offline Snail

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Any chance of you redoing it? :)

Gah, we shouldn't be talking about the Athena on a Loki thread...

 

Offline Flaser

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The Athena was finished, dude. By either Trashman or Turambar.

It was Trashy. And no offense to him, but that model wasn't too hot.

I wouldn't call it Trashy.
It was 'alright', as in it didn't bring that much more to the model.

I think he's a mediocre modeller (even that's something few actually aspire to), with an extreme preservance that can only be admired. IMHO if he could 'outgrow' his 'box'-modelling, he would be ranked among the top modellers of HLP, alas he's only among the top modders so far.

(Once again IMHO).
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Snail

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I agree. TrashMan has a few good models (like the Whitehall...) but they aren't all that hot at times.

 

Offline takashi

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id give everything for an HTL sathanas.

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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What pirate base?
My favourite model so far. Mainly 'cos it's just pure greeble-fest. ;)

(and before anyone asks it and I'm then forced to hurt them: No. The above pic is not of a complete texture. :p )

More about it



The Athena was finished, dude. By either Trashman or Turambar.

It was Trashy. And no offense to him, but that model wasn't too hot.

I wouldn't call it Trashy.
It was 'alright', as in it didn't bring that much more to the model.

I think he's a mediocre modeller (even that's something few actually aspire to), with an extreme preservance that can only be admired. IMHO if he could 'outgrow' his 'box'-modelling, he would be ranked among the top modellers of HLP, alas he's only among the top modders so far.
I think he's just saying it was Trashman who made it there - not saying the model was 'trashy'. ;)

But yeah, the truth is; he didn't change much at all from the original model. Added a CP (though according to modview it doesn't work because there's no texture applied to the glass), some recesses to existing polys and a couple of bevels. There are a few other small changes - but again they're more 'differences' than detail. Every other HTL model done thus far has had a lot more detail than that. :(
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Offline asyikarea51

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Now that is a fierce-looking Loki... all that darkness makes it a lot meaner than the old one.

On TrashMan's models... well I'll agree that they can be just "meh..." and uninteresting sometimes, but I don't mind. I'm happy with his Athenas as they are (thank goodness I kept backups of my hackfixed version on FileFront - I think I lost the copy on my HDD).

 

Offline TrashMan

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When I started work on the Athena I actually started on the Mk2, not the original (and made the model from scratch, didn't edit the original one). I deliberately kept the polycount down below 2000 for multiple reasons:

1. I don't see the benefit of 5000 polys fighters. They look nice, but I won't be looking at large, well-lit renders in game.
2. I got lots of friends with poor rigs. How many here play FS2 with everything set to high?
3. Going too overboard with the polys tends to disrupt the canon look sometimes, with ppl adding stuff that isn't there on the original, which is something I try to avoid when possible.


All in all there's nothing stoping me from making a 100000 poly Athena.
However, I won't for now...Now capships - having lots of well-used polys there is a must. That's why the Archy and Whitehall cross the 10000 treshold.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 06:58:19 am by TrashMan »
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Offline asyikarea51

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2. I got lots of friends with poor rigs. How many here play FS2 with everything set to high?

Seconded. My previous computers were all... shall I say, terrible. :(

 

Offline wolf

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1. I don't see the benefit of 5000 polys fighters. They look nice, but I won't be looking at large, well-lit renders in game.
There are a lot of opportunities to see close-up, well lit fighter.

Quote
2. I got lots of friends with poor rigs. How many here play FS2 with everything set to high?
I do. And I don't care about the rest, nobody is forcing them to use all the bells and whistles. In fact, saying "I've got 10 years old hardware, so you people with faster computers can't have better gfx than me" is... Well, you know.

 

Offline Snail

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Quote from: Classified Level Omega, accessible only to those directly authorized by the HLP Administration
As for modelling it out after the plate lines... I just cant do it, and Ill explain why
Look at the HTL Zeus for instance... It has lots of polygons following the plates of the texture. The end result is a waste of polys given the fact that in the future, you will have bump maps and the sort in freespace (yeah im faithfull :P).So in sum, whoever modelled the Zeus (cant remember who), will have to redo it once we have bump maps, when he could have modeled a bit more into the ship, instead of following everything by the letter.


But for now I guess we can deal with 2000k poly fighters. (hehe 2million polys)


Uh oh I think I see VA browsing the board... :nervous:



AND IN HIS THREAD TOO!!!!!! :eek:

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Quote from: Classified Level Omega, accessible only to those directly authorized by the HLP Administration
As for modelling it out after the plate lines... I just cant do it, and Ill explain why
Look at the HTL Zeus for instance... It has lots of polygons following the plates of the texture. The end result is a waste of polys given the fact that in the future, you will have bump maps and the sort in freespace (yeah im faithfull :P).So in sum, whoever modelled the Zeus (cant remember who), will have to redo it once we have bump maps, when he could have modeled a bit more into the ship, instead of following everything by the letter.


But for now I guess we can deal with 2000k poly fighters. (hehe 2million polys)


Uh oh I think I see VA browsing the board... :nervous:



AND IN HIS THREAD TOO!!!!!! :eek:
Yes - big very texty post alert. :p

And whoever said that is kinda wrong. Bumpmaps are not always a good substitute for actual geometry, and I've given careful consideration to what I will and will not model in, because I know they're around the corner. In fact I have bumpmaps lined up for the Triton, Aeolus and Lucifer already!
Bumpmaps accentuate existing detail - they do not and should not replace it.

As such I won't have to redo the Zeus (and why can nobody ever remember me? :wtf: ), because the bumpmaps will only serve to improve the detail that is already there. Here's a question too: What are all these things I could have modeled in instead of the level of detail that I did make? There's simply nothing else to add in it's place except the exact detail that bumpmaps really should be used for - which is smaller than what I did add.

So please go squish that notion in whichever internal forum you read it in. :p


When I started work on the Athena I actually started on the Mk2, not the original (and made the model from scratch, didn't edit the original one). I deliberately kept the polycount down below 2000 for multiple reasons:

1. I don't see the benefit of 5000 polys fighters. They look nice, but I won't be looking at large, well-lit renders in game.
2. I got lots of friends with poor rigs. How many here play FS2 with everything set to high?
3. Going too overboard with the polys tends to disrupt the canon look sometimes, with ppl adding stuff that isn't there on the original, which is something I try to avoid when possible.


All in all there's nothing stoping me from making a 100000 poly Athena.
However, I won't for now...Now capships - having lots of well-used polys there is a must. That's why the Archy and Whitehall cross the 10000 treshold.
You've used those arguments before now - when pretty much the same points were leveled at you, but they simply don't hold water. I am going to systematically pull them apart now because I'm quite certain they are primarily what is limiting you: (well that and I'm kinda just rehashing stuff that's going into the Blender tutorial anyway ;) )

1) As this Loki should prove to you, even the smallish details in your model will be visible in game (all those 'well lit renders' on the first page are just the Loki in the ship lab. In game.) Whether it's mid-dogfight, in the techroom or in the Lab - the lighting really does make even small details pop out. They don't even have to be the kind of detail you'd notice as detail, but rather the kind you would miss very much if it wasn't there.
And people really do notice if that detail just isn't there, else there'd be no point at all to HTLing the fighters/bombers. Why are there no recent 'beauty shots' of the retail fighters anymore? Simply because the HTL stuff looks better in-game, and that's what people prefer to look at. 3d modeling for games is as much a form of art for people to enjoy as any other type is. We don't build the models and draw the textures just to represent a ships position and shape now do we? We build them to capture the feel of that ship.

As such, let loose with as many polys as you need to capture the feel of a ship, because there's very little point in a ship that can run on low end machines if it's unimpressive as an artwork in itself. Even ships that are not meant to be good looking in shape need to be well built to capture that ships 'feel'. You can't for example make a dodgy model of a freighter and justify thay by saying it's meant to look ugly. It needs to look real first. ;)
Basically, go for looks first while keeping the polycount in mind - not the other way around. Aim for the image you have in your head, rather than what you think your or others graphics card can cope with, which leads us to the second point:

2) This is the reason that holds least water. First and foremost, Taylor has written up that excellent set of guidelines, tips and explanations in the stickied thread up the top of this forum. And in fact - I'd guess that this Loki would run faster than the HTL Athena based on the textures used. You've used PCX for both the hull and the cockpit, which is going to take up more memory and run slower than DDS DXT1s would. It's not the polycount that matters anymore - it's the textures.
Look at this:


Not terribly impressive eh? Well actually it is. That there is 230 000 polys in game in a single model, rendering with a shinemap no less! Now granted it wasn't with a terribly good framerate (20 or so), but the point is, the game engine is fast enough to take high polycounts without skipping a beat if they are used properly.
Note that by 'properly', I mean not only pay attention to format and reducing the number of textures, but also use the features like lods and detail boxes. That way the detail only becomes visible when it really is visible.

And on top of that, as Wolf says, it's better to have a full detail model that some of the lower end computer people have to turn down the graphics for now than have a low poly model that you'll need to upgrade again a year or so later because it looks so out of date. ;)
Again, don't limit at the artwork level what should be limited by the end user.

3) This is probably the most valid point, but it's still kinda invalid. If you're making something better to the point where it disrupts the canon look (something you personally might not want), the answer is not to add barely any detail at all, because you're not really making it any 'better' in the first place!
No; the answer, as in point 1, is to make it look as you want it too look. That is, if you want it to totally keep the canon design feel, then you model it to do that.

As some have noticed, I keep my HTL stuff as strictly close to the canon look as I possibly can, which is for a couple of simple reasons:
1) I really like the canon designs and want to keep them like that. If I want to add my own stuff, I'll build my own ship.
2) It's more of a challenge to be inventive within the restrictions of canon - and I like such challenges too. :)
3) 100% guarantees people will accept it in place of the original. Least important of my reasons, and it's also me just being a bit of a wuss. I wouldn't like it at all if I put all this work into a model upgrade, only to end up with something that no-one uses for that role. Having a model that is too dissimilar to be considered an upgrade and too similar to be considered a different ship would kinda suck. What it takes to be considered 'too dissimilar' will differ greatly from person to person though.

And finally, while I'm here, there's also a very VERY important technique related aspect that you could try: surfaces. I'm not talking about smoothing - that's just a poor substitute for actual detail in the majority of cases, and it really does show in the final result. :\

What I'm talking about relates to the whole modeling technique/mentality used. The idea is that polygons form surfaces, and then surfaces form ships. If you build your ship out of surfaces rather than polygons then you will almost always end up with a far superior result visually - because it will look built rather than modeled. Take the Loki or the Zeus as an example of what I mean.
There are no or VERY few polygon creases/edges on the model that are not fully intended to be there from a design perspective. There are no hull plates that abnormally bend over any such intended crease either. The head of the original Hecate was a prime example of this, as are many of the low poly original [v] models.
Creases and ugly geometry that simply would not be constructed on the ship in the real world have no place in the model of that ship. ;)

Anyways, enough from me. I really should do some of that whole 'study' thing for uni. :\
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Offline asyikarea51

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BTW VA, sorry to go OFT but do you still have a copy of your HTL Uglies fighters that I can appropriate? I lost my copy... :(

Thanks in advance. :)

 

Offline Raven2001

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Quote from: Classified Level Omega, accessible only to those directly authorized by the HLP Administration
As for modelling it out after the plate lines... I just cant do it, and Ill explain why
Look at the HTL Zeus for instance... It has lots of polygons following the plates of the texture. The end result is a waste of polys given the fact that in the future, you will have bump maps and the sort in freespace (yeah im faithfull :P).So in sum, whoever modelled the Zeus (cant remember who), will have to redo it once we have bump maps, when he could have modeled a bit more into the ship, instead of following everything by the letter.


But for now I guess we can deal with 2000k poly fighters. (hehe 2million polys)


Uh oh I think I see VA browsing the board... :nervous:



AND IN HIS THREAD TOO!!!!!! :eek:
Yes - big very texty post alert. :p

And whoever said that is kinda wrong. Bumpmaps are not always a good substitute for actual geometry, and I've given careful consideration to what I will and will not model in, because I know they're around the corner. In fact I have bumpmaps lined up for the Triton, Aeolus and Lucifer already!
Bumpmaps accentuate existing detail - they do not and should not replace it.

As such I won't have to redo the Zeus (and why can nobody ever remember me? :wtf: ), because the bumpmaps will only serve to improve the detail that is already there. Here's a question too: What are all these things I could have modeled in instead of the level of detail that I did make? There's simply nothing else to add in it's place except the exact detail that bumpmaps really should be used for - which is smaller than what I did add.

So please go squish that notion in whichever internal forum you read it in. :p


Actually it was me who made that post in an internal board. Post which I hold my point to it: when I see platelines referenced in the original model texture, as a new, extremely small bevel, that is barely noticed (that is, easily simulated by bumps), I have to say it is a bad a HTL attempt IMO.

True they dont add detail, but accentuate them... but thats exactly what you do in most of your HTLizations of V's models. And most of the detail you accentuate, could easily get away with a bump map. And thats my point. In fact, if you take a look at modern games models, you will see the truth of what I say :P


As an answer to your question, what you could have done on any htlization job, was to improve the design of the ship, instead of making a carbon copy of the original, but with more polys. But obviously thats my way of seeing things on the HTL stuff: the Hecate, Ravana, Moloch, Aeolus, Orion, etc, are perfect examples of what I mean. They still feel like what they should be, but they also have something new to their design.
And thats what IMO should an HTL design be all about: take the original and spice it up with more goodness (goodness= more stuff). If people dont like your original traits at first, try again, and they eventually will, and accept them as good replacements of the originals

Dont get me wrong, I think you are actually a very good modeler (and I did know you modeled the Zeus, but I didnt want to rise names on that discussion, as a matter of respect). But I just simply cant agree at HTLizing stuff, where rigourously (sp?) nothing is added to the originals, and even less, I cant agree that for a game, no matter how many polys it holds, people make every bit of detail into a bevel, which is completely unnecessary.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 11:14:18 am by Raven2001 »
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


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Offline Mars

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3. Going too overboard with the polys tends to disrupt the canon look sometimes, with ppl adding stuff that isn't there on the original, which is something I try to avoid when possible.

But changing the Zod weapons in FS1 so that they fire faster is perfectly alright  :confused:

 

Offline redsniper

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In fact I have bumpmaps lined up for the Triton, Aeolus and Lucifer already!

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*dies*
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Bumpmaps are not all-powerful. They cannot simulate the majority of detail that I model, because they are not going to look as good as having actual geometry there will.
Eg: the underside of the Zeus is the area I presume you mean most, because the top has very little of it:

That detail sticks out in modview and it sticks out in game - more than bumpmaps would in the same position. They just can't represent paralax like that and I've always been able to pick out what is and isn't bumpmapped. Being geometry they may also eventually cast shadows, further separating them from bumpmaps.

I stick to canon because of the reasons I stated above - primarily because I like canon. Only in cases like the aeolus, triton and TC-Tri where canon offers almost nothing to go by will I spruce it up. Where that is not the case, there is no need to. As I said, if I want to add my own stuff, I am perfectly capable of building my own ship.

I upgrade these ships as much for myself as I do the community, and if for example I took the Zeus and put (for the sake of the argument cool looking) pipes between the weapon pods, you might accept those additions, but I wouldn't. I'd see it as a Zeus with pipes between the pods.

I can quite happily accept people making changes to the ships they upgrade (within reason obviously), but I cannot accept them if I make those changes myself without good reason.
So if you'd rather see and make new things appear on ships where they weren't before, by all means do so! However that's not going to change the way I do it. :p
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Offline Raven2001

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I meant both the underside and upper side, as well as the pods (the missiles most notably). Theres lots of greebling there that would look just as good with a bump map (and a well done one). The only reason you can always pick out what is and whatsnot bumped is simply because you know where a bump map would do the same thing as a mesh, and you suppose that the game devs are smart enough to realize it :P

True they dont represent parallax like that, but then again, for a fighter sized ship, that is moving at a quite fast speed, you wont be seeing any parallax at all.

Take a look at this:


thats an ingame mesh... wanna see the the wireframed version?


Thats 5k polys (most of them are in the face area, for obvious reasons)... see how much the bump maps add to it? see how many detailing (small details) it saved the mesh from? And you can also see how the lightning reacts flawlessly with them as well (obviously we dont have that kind of lightning on FS yet). THAT is a good bumpmap job, and it does what im saying pretty well, if not perfectly.

And im not telling you to NOT stick to cannon... im just saying that if you are, theres no reason to turn a game fighter into a sculpture, in order to make it HTLized.
In fact, if people want to zealousy to keep cannon by 100%, then the way Trashman handled the Athena would be the way to go IMO
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

  

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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I think that one has been generated from a very high poly mesh - it's way beyond what bumpmapping alone can do and so not a fair example.

A couple of hundred extra polys - even a thousand or so are not going to harm performance if the model is efficiently made and well lodded, so what reason do you have to say that detail shouldn't be added? In fact, what if it's easier to make that detail with geometry than it is with a bumpmap? It looks better than it would otherwise now, and can only look even better when bumpmapping comes along - at very little cost to performance.

And your comment about zealously sticking to canon is uncalled for. There's an important difference between enshrining every poly of canon and just wanting to keep the feel of the ship the same. I prefer to keep that feel the same, you prefer to add or change some things. I don't mind either, because there is nothing wrong with either approach - they are just different.

The results at the end of the day are that we end up with a higher quality model for the job. Does anyone else here see a problem with that theory?
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Offline Col. Fishguts

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IIRC that mesh uses normal mapping, which is quite a bit more powerful than plain bump mapping.
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