Author Topic: Fenris cruisers  (Read 50937 times)

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Offline Mars

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Are they worth keeping?

Why?

What about Leviathans?

 

Offline Prophet

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Why wouldn't they? Or would you rather have a Hecate escorting every convoy, quarding every depot and patrolling every remote system? Fenris and Leviathan cruisers are capable ships when Alpha 1 is not around. And the design is pretty, no wings or fins.
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Offline Mars

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The Deimos corvette is supposed to replace Fenathan cruisers of course not a Hecate, obviously your not going to have a destroyer escorting convoys.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 03:38:26 am by Mars »

 

Offline Fury

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Aeolus is more capable cruiser design though than Fenris or Leviathan. Leviathans are good for protecting stationary targets, while Aeolus excels in convoy escorts. Fenrises are pretty obsolete as there is Aeolus, but converting Fenrises to Leviathans would be a smart move.

I see corvettes and destroyers in offensive role, while cruisers are in defensive role. I don't think corvettes would be the standard escort for convoys and stationary targets. Besides, multiple cruisers offer superior mobility than a single corvette.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Note that the Fenris is more cost effective than the Aeolus, and the Fenris can also double as a pretty good quick strike vessel.
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Offline Fury

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Note that the Fenris is more cost effective than the Aeolus
Now that is purely speculation. :) Aeolus is of newer design and might cost less to manufacture and don't forget that upkeep of old vessels costs a lot more than new vessels because of their age, at least that's how it is in current navies.

Based on what little information is available about GTVA capital ship manufacturing, considering that even production of Aeolus was restarted multiple times (as stated in the tech room) it is unlikely that Fenris and Leviathan cruisers have been manufactured since Aeolus went into production for the first time. But still, there's very little information about GTVA's manufacturing of space vessels and of their upkeep.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 03:57:14 am by Fury »

 

Offline Mars

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No, they never resumed production of the Aeolus canonically, they only produced 24, most of which were destroyed in the main campagin.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Note that the Fenris is more cost effective than the Aeolus
Now that is purely speculation. :) Aeolus is of newer design and might cost less to manufacture and don't forget that upkeep of old vessels costs a lot more than new vessels because of their age, at least that's how it is in current navies.

I thought that they stopped manufacturing them because they cost too much.

Anyway, remember that that upkeep thing is for the age of the vessel, not the design. One would assume the GTVA has built more Fenris and Leviathans since the Great War and that more than 24 cruisers (Aeolus) were built in recent years.
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Offline Mars

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Here are all the quotes from the Tech descriptions
Fenris
Quote
FS2 Demo Tech Room Description

The biggest, baddest, and meanest cruiser EVER. The Aeolus will smack you up.

FS2 Tech Room Description

The GTC Aeolus is the first cruiser class ever produced by the RNI shipyards orbiting Laramis II. Only two dozen of these cruisers were put into service in GTVA fleets, with production ending in 2365. Allied Command assigns Aeolus-class ships primarily to guard slow-moving convoys against fighter and bomber wings, as these cruisers are severely out-gunned by most capital ships in service today. Their flak and AAA turrets serve as marvelous deterrents to smaller craft, however.
Fenris
Quote
FS1 Tech Room Description

The mainstay of the Terran Fleet, these vessels have served in both strike and defense purposes. From nose to tail it measures 260 meters. With a full array of weapon systems and a strong enough hull to withstand the strongest enemy warheads, a Fenris Cruiser can be found in almost any system that the GTA is operating in. The Fenris cruiser was originally designed as a strike weapon, hence its fast speed and decent turning rate. It was later decided that a second line of cruisers would be produced, for defensive purposes, once it became apparent that the V-T war wouldn't be over in a few months.

FS2 Tech Room Description

The GTC Fenris class is the aging stalwart among the Alliance's warships. Before the Great War, the Fenris was Terran Command's only class of cruisers. During the war, Terran Command decided to build a second line of cruisers, the Leviathans, to free the Fenris from escort and guard duties. Fenris cruisers have fought in virtually every theatre of operation. These fast, versatile cruisers pack enough punch in their 260-meter-long hulls to go toe-to-toe with any enemy cruiser. The Fenris's speed and maneuverability make it a good choice for strike missions.
Leviathan
Quote
FS1 Tech Room Description

After the Vasudans began making incursions into GTA space, command decided that it needed a new defensive cruiser. Changes to the Fenris led to the GTC Leviathan line of cruisers, produced as mobile defense battleships. Their speed and maneuverability were greatly reduced in tradeoff for more powerful weapons and a stronger hull. Production was discontinued when the GTA thought they would win the Vasudan war after the Battle of Gulnara, and then the production was started up again after the defeat at the Talania system. Because of the on-again off-again nature of this vessel's production, almost all of the Leviathan Cruisers have different armaments, but all have consistent hulls and speeds.

FS2 Tech Room Description

Early in the Great War, Han-Ronald engineers designed and built the Leviathan class of cruisers. The Leviathan is much heavier armed and armored than the Fenris, but also much slower and less maneuverable. Leviathan cruisers are used to guard critical installations, such as permanent jump nodes, deep-space factories, and gas-mining operations, where firepower is king and speed is of little importance. They're also well-suited to escorting slow-moving freighters or transports. The Fenris is good for fast-moving operations, but when you need some muscle, call in a Leviathan.
Deimos
Quote
FS2 Tech Room Description

Deimos-class corvettes, such as the GTCv Actium and the GTCv Lysander, are the newest addition to the Terran fleet. These sleek, ultra-modern warships are the products of a new era of ship design, maximizing maneuverability and firepower. Their hulls are strengthened with collapsed-core molybdenum sheathing for better protection against beam fire, and their Vasudan-designed reactor core provides more energy per ton than any other allied ship class. As the Leviathan and Fenris cruisers of the Great War are gradually phased out, these corvettes will become the foundation of tomorrow's fleet.

Nowhere does it mention price.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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The Fenris has zero strike capablity. An LTerSlash gets beat out by a bank of Tempests.

By FS2, I think the Fenris is on the way out; you only see one in GTVA colors once in the main campaign, IIRC. If nothing else, their sheer fragility in the FS2 era gives them a life expectancy of, on average, a minute once they're seriously attacked. Even the Aten lasts longer then that. (Though not by much...)

Concerning the Aeolus, cost-effectiveness is...beating 8+ wings of bombers vs. 1 wing of bombers for the Fenris, 2 wings at the outside. Unless the Aeolus costs more then four times what the Fenris does (unlikely; the Fenris is actually larger, so at the very least it needs more materials and probably more crew), the Aeolus is coming out ahead. And this isn't even considering their respective anticapital abilities. (Fenris: laughable vs. Aeolus: not great, but serviceable.)

Where cost and the Aeolus are considered, there is almost zero possiblity that it's not cost-effective when compared to the other cruisers. Rather, if it's not cost-effective, it must be in comparison to the Deimos.
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Offline Mars

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I've never thought of that. The only real advantage of the Deimos over the Aeolus is anti-capital power... in which the Deimos is many times more capable than the Aeolus. I think that's why it's replacing the Fenathan cruisers rather than the Aeolus.

 

Offline karajorma

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You're making the assumption that the GTVA is building new fenrises in that analysis ngtm1r. It could very easily cost more than four times as much to build and maintain a new Aeolus compared with the cost to maintain an existing Fenris.
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Offline Prophet

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Okay. Few things I feel that need to be noted. When considering the fragility of cruisers versus fighters. Remember that Alpha 1 cannot be conisdered as an example. Of course A1 owns everything that can be thrown at him. But what if A1 would have full control over a Fenris class cruiser? Again, every incoming target would be pwned. Thus "cannon taken out by a bank of tempest" is not a valid argument because the Ai cannot do it properly. If Ai could do it properly, the cruiser would likely have the intelligence to use the beam cannon. POF! And turn the troublesome bank of tempest in to vapor.
A properly armed wing of heavy fightes can take out a Fenris, even without A1. But so would happen to modern destroyers if a squadron of heavily armed Hornets would attack it.

And when he have seen Fenris or leviathan in the main FS2 campaing, its function has usually been to provide a pretty explosion. But the GTC Lonewolf in Derelict survived multiple major engagements. Volition was a little heartless when it designed the campaign. But I guess explosions are always cool. So examples of cruisers weaknesses are numerous, but their strenghts have been overlooked.

Perhaps in the age of FS1 a cruiser was a valid first line combat ship, but now corvettes have taken it's place. When you put things properly in perspective, you'll find out a Fenris (or a Leviathan) isn't a useless ship. It's a damn old design, but after being upgraded with beam weaponry, it is a good support vessel. One Fenris can decimate a freighter convoy or a cargo depot (if Alpha 1 is not present) and can thus seriously hamper enemy logistics. But it cannot bear the brunt of an offensive, it is not meant to.

So show some respect to the old goat.
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Offline Fury

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I think the balance between fighters/bombers and cruisers was good in the beginning of the original FS campaign, but after fighters and bombers got their shields, cruisers and other capital ships remained the same. I have often wondered whether Volition originally planned capital ships to receive shields as well.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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You're making the assumption that the GTVA is building new fenrises in that analysis ngtm1r. It could very easily cost more than four times as much to build and maintain a new Aeolus compared with the cost to maintain an existing Fenris.

And the lives of its crew.

I'm not assuming they're being built: I'm taking the view of full lifetime costs, from construction to decomissioning. That's exactly what most militaries do. (Granted because it sounds better to the politicians that way, but otherwise they'd never give the military new weapons. It will always be cheaper to maintain an older ship instead of building a new one...except for the part about the crew getting killed I mentioned.)

My comments on durablity are based on testing in FRED, and occasionally the main campaign, where I have delibrately removed myself from the equation.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 07:27:07 am by ngtm1r »
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Offline Prophet

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I agree with Fury. Shields somewhat negate the need for evasion. I somehow feel like a wussy hiding behind shields while freighter crews bravely take the beating trusting only in their flak/subach turrets. Those are the true heroes of the Alliance! :yes:

This is what happens when I'm flying a Herc II. Someone shoots me in the back. "Meh. I'll kill this mara first, then I'll see who's shooting me" With a little shield management, there is no danger... :doubt:

When I'm flying a Starfury. First salvo takes hull integrity down to 50-80 % (depends on the opposition) before I get off with some decent manouvers. Then you actually have to counter your foe because if you let him hang in your tail, he will kill you. That's fighting.
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Offline TrashMan

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Weapon power needs to be boosted substantially...when a single salvo fro a shivan fighter brings your full shields down to 30% you WILL worry :D
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Offline Shade

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Fenris cruisers are obsolescent, but not entirely useless. You still need something to park next to that backwater space station to scare off would-be raiders, and it'll still do that.

The Leviathan, though... that's still one mean ship to go up against. 4 AAA beams. Four. So sure, it may not fare well against other warships, but it will eat up fighters and bombers almost as well as an Aeolus, and in fact better when shivans are concerned as they are shield-centric. Plus it can actually take a fair beating. As long as it doesn't have to move, it's awesome.

As for all the shields being too powerful stuff, play on the higher difficulties. Maxed out, you'll often lose half your shields to a single enemy volley.
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Offline Mefustae

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Given the state of the fleet, it'd be extremely ill-advised to even consider retiring the Fenris, regardless of the quality or cost-effective nature of the design. Hell, even when the fleet has been rebuilt, the Fenris would be useful to keep around, I mean, just gut the weapons and habitation systems, whack in a Meson Bomb, and you've got yourself an Anti-Jug cruise missile.

 

Offline Prophet

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As for all the shields being too powerful stuff, play on the higher difficulties. Maxed out, you'll often lose half your shields to a single enemy volley.
That is hard, because you will be all alone by the time the first enemy volley hits you. I rather play on normal and let the shields dry up and  rely on speeeed.

I mean, just gut the weapons and habitation systems, whack in a Meson Bomb, and you've got yourself an Anti-Jug cruise missile.
With the speed of... OMG 20 kmph!!! Or what ever the speed unit in FS was. Not very impressive. I'd leave some blob guns in so it can at least shoot down some bombs... Or you could equip meson bomb with a jump drive and warp it inside the juggernaut. This leaves the Fenrises to be converted in to passenger ships so you can bring tourists to look the big explosion.
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