Author Topic: Fenris cruisers  (Read 50896 times)

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Offline Mars

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The Hercs could disable the Ravana, and destroy the (weak) shivan fighters, any that survived could be destroyed by the Deimos's heavy anti-fighter weaponry.

Try that without Alpha 1. Also, by using fighters you are no longer just using the corvettes but using another destroyers fighter complement.

Again, even considering all that, it goes against everything that is shown in the campaign.

Yeah, the whole battlegroup tried and failed, but then a wing of Boanerges class bombers and a Sobek took it out :rolleyes:

Against a damaged Ravana with it's fighter complement almost run out and not to mention disabled (I'm not really sure about this last one).
I wasn't saying destroyers as a class are being phased out: I was saying they were no longer the primary offensive tool; the Vasudans still use them as attack vessels, but your never going to see a Hecate attacking a Ravana (in offense) rather a squad of bombers will commense attack instead. And the Ravana was still at ~80%, and it wasn't disabled. In that mission the Sobek alone could have killed the Ravana, forget Alpha 1. I'm not trying to say corvettes can do it all, all I'm saying is that the Terrans no longer use destroyers directly for anti-capital work, merly as a base for bombers. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 06:02:27 pm by Mars »

 

Offline Ghostavo

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I wasn't saying destroyers as a class are being phased out: I was saying they were no longer the primary offensive tool; the Vasudans still use them as attack vessels, but your never going to see a Hecate attacking a Ravana (in offense) rather a squad of bombers will commense attack instead. And the Ravana was still at ~80%, and it wasn't disabled. In that mission the Sobek alone could have killed the Ravana, forget Alpha 1.

Really? I remember having to defend that Sobek for long time once (I stupidly got myself at ~10% hull and didn't dare to aproach the ship) against some fighters. That doesn't sound like the Sobek alone.

I wasn't saying destroyers as a class are being phased out: I was saying they were no longer the primary offensive tool; the Vasudans still use them as attack vessels, but your never going to see a Hecate attacking a Ravana (in offense) rather a squad of bombers will commense attack instead.

I never denied that, but saying that a couple of corvettes can single handedly destroy the Ravana is... against everything shown.
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Offline Mars

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What I said
Quote
Two Deimos corvettes could take out a Ravana no problem (if the Ravana couldn't jump out that is)
And it's true, if it were all down to the corvettes, with no influence from fighters from either side, the corvettes have a fair chance of taking down the Ravana. Maybe not according to the FS2 script, but according to the FS2 specs. I think that's a valid statement, and I don't think it's worth a holy war, because it's pretty clear that neither of us are going to be swayed, isn't it. I don't want to go neo-Trashman, lets just agree that we disagree and go on with out lives, huh?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 06:39:26 pm by Mars »

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Well, I never meant to infer that, if I did, sorry, once again all I meant to say was that the Terrans are replacing large offensive battleship type vessels (the Orion) with smaller more common vessels (the Deimos) (and here's the part I apparently didn't state well enough) supported by fighters and bombers. Are we done?

Perhaps  :)

I feel like I'm fighting a war over technicalities.

Two Deimos corvettes could take out a Ravana no problem (if the Ravana couldn't jump out that is)

This isn't a technicality. :p
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Offline Mars

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Not really, I was breaking it down to combat preformance and not the ability to run away and hide.

BTW: I edited, sorry about that.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Well, I never meant to infer that, if I did, sorry, once again all I meant to say was that the Terrans are replacing large offensive battleship type vessels (the Orion) with smaller more common vessels (the Deimos) (and here's the part I apparently didn't state well enough) supported by fighters and bombers. Are we done? I feel like I'm fighting a war over technicalities.

The GTVA seems to be almost assigning each species to specific fleet philosophies.

Terrans
Command & Control (Hecate, retiring Orions)
More Bang-for-Buck (Deimos)
Anti-fighter roles (Deimos, Aeolus, better AAA coverage on Hecate)

Vasudans
Offensive warships (Sobek, Hatshepsut, retiring carrier-style Typhons)
Anti-capital roles (Sobek, Hatshepsut)
Regulating older cruisers to rear guard (Aten) while keeping modern cruisers capable of ship-to-ship combat (Mentu; read the tech description)
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Offline AlphaOne

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Well there will always be a need for big guns ! And the Orion has just that big guns and a lot of them . I mean there is no destroyer in the entire GTVA that can match its firepower(beam cannon) .

An Orion could eat for breakfast a Hatsheepsut and still have room to dig into a a couple of corvettes. Not to say that the Hecate really would be screwed if it were to ever come into a beam cannon fire exchange with the Orion.

If you think about it it is very remarcable how Great War ships can actualy do just as well as the new designs implemented by the GTVA.  I mean one of the most powerfull destroyers available is the Orion while the Leviathan and the Aeoulous can still do one hell of a job at taking out fighters/bommbers and node defence.

Sure the Orion mai be crappy at aaaf point defences but considering its age and the tipe of warfare it was designed it is quite remarcable. Also whyle its fighterbai is smaller then that of the newer designs is by no mean small i mean that think can still carry like what 100+ spacecrafts.

Also the fenris regardless of the fact that is has very limited offensive and defensive capabilities its fast and agile wich makes it ideal for a multitude of pourposes.
Die shivan die!!
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Offline Mars

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The Orions total sustained beam firepower is 1.25 times that of the GVD Hatshepsut, however, with the Hatshepsut the beams are all aimed at the target, or none of them are, whereas the Orion physically can't fire all its beams at one target.

 

Offline Polpolion

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OR CAN IT????

 

Offline Flipside

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Well, remember the Lysander also ran the gauntlet of a few Cruisers before facing the Ravanna, and even Shivan cruiser beams are not to be sniffed at...

 

Offline Mars

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Must we dwell???  :sigh:

Yeah, I agree... now lets get back to the Orion vs. the Hatshepsut, pr even (gasp) the relevance of Fenathan cruisers.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 07:16:45 pm by Mars »

 

Offline AlphaOne

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well the best comparison for the Fenris would be the Cail right? Well a Cain cruise is somewhat more powerfull then the Fenris but only because of its beam cannon. The fenris I believe actualy has a better aaaf point defence the the Cain.

Regarding the vasudan destroyer....i didnt get it can a Hatsheepsut take down an Orion or cant it?
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Offline Mars

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I'd say the Fenris and Aten are closer, but the Aten lacks any serious beam weaponry.

The Orion and Hatshepsut are closely matched, it's the skill of the commander / crew that would ultimately determine the outcome.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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The Hecate was a misstep, though; it could only have worked properly if it could deploy fighters from a safe place...but there are no safe places. Wherever you are somebody can hop in at short range (particularly if they're Shivans) and scream "EAT BEAMZ AND DIE!!!!11!1"...and then the Hecate's screwed.
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Offline Mars

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Hecate had, let's see here the Hecate had 1284 maximum sustained damage a second so the Orion and Hatshepsut beat it majorly, however, it has an extra 4.5 squadrons.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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alot of good those extra squadrons do when the blasted this is under attack from close range by beam weaponry. Hell even a Lilith could take it out ! Jump in fire its large red and the hecate is screwed. It cant dish out any significant amount of damage from its beams and i dont believe it can jump out that fast. Whyle the Orion can bring to bear at least 2 BG ! It that corect?

the point beeing that although C&C are a must as well as a good carrier capabilaty beam cannons are a must as well. Especialy since the is no safe place to deply the Hecates fighters/bommbers.

This brings back into focus again the age old problem of manouverabity,speed and most of all a balanced mix between the beam cannons aaaf point deefnses and carrir capacity. The Hatsheepsut is the best in these regards i mean it has the best mix available at this point between all of the above.


But then again you could specialized on the matter and simpl create a dedicated carrier. Stack a couple of corvettes say 2 of them at all times for close quarter combat. Or you could have ships like the hecate and a newer version of the Orion I mnea something that has good fipower as well as decent carrier abilaties and decent aaaf point defences. Sure the Hatsheepsuit could fill that role but I dont know why but it feels to me that it falls short of achieving that goal!

I mean superb example would be the Aeoulous, the Fenris and even the Leviathan!
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Offline Mars

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Again, this is where other ships of the fleet come into play, corvettes and cruisers, not to mention fighters and bombers, are the Hecates primary defense.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Yes thats fine by me but then agin when you have a ship that chew up corvettes like gum not to mention cruisers which would normali be nothing more then a very minor distraction you tend to be a little more carefull about the defensive abilaties of a ship.

I believe that it is quite foolish to risk a ship so valuable like the Hecate in ample caombat activities since no matter how hard you try it will always come unde direct fire form the enemies beam cannons. We have seen that happening time and time again. But instead you would risk something like an upgraded corvette (upgraded=real beam cannons not those sory excuse of a slasher) or even a frigate like the Iceni along with a few wings of fighters/bommbers. I imagine a ship like the Hecate would actualy be out of the sistem where the battle takes place. Holding position just outside of the jump node in a way so as not to come under direct FOF from a shivan capshi exiting the combat area.

Then the Hecate actualy deplys fighters and boombers from outside of the sistem to assist the ship that actualy engage the enemy. Or crate a strong defensive line around a dedicated carrier say 200 spacecraft's capeable with a t least one Orion and at least 2 corvettes and 4 cruisers. Hell you could even bring in a couple of Hecates there instead of the dedicated carier just acieve the same result.

Constant suply of boombers/fighters to aid the capships in taking out the shivan ships.
Die shivan die!!
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Offline aldo_14

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Yes thats fine by me but then agin when you have a ship that chew up corvettes like gum not to mention cruisers which would normali be nothing more then a very minor distraction you tend to be a little more carefull about the defensive abilaties of a ship.

I believe that it is quite foolish to risk a ship so valuable like the Hecate in ample caombat activities since no matter how hard you try it will always come unde direct fire form the enemies beam cannons. We have seen that happening time and time again. But instead you would risk something like an upgraded corvette (upgraded=real beam cannons not those sory excuse of a slasher) or even a frigate like the Iceni along with a few wings of fighters/bommbers. I imagine a ship like the Hecate would actualy be out of the sistem where the battle takes place. Holding position just outside of the jump node in a way so as not to come under direct FOF from a shivan capshi exiting the combat area.

Then the Hecate actualy deplys fighters and boombers from outside of the sistem to assist the ship that actualy engage the enemy. Or crate a strong defensive line around a dedicated carrier say 200 spacecraft's capeable with a t least one Orion and at least 2 corvettes and 4 cruisers. Hell you could even bring in a couple of Hecates there instead of the dedicated carier just acieve the same result.

Constant suply of boombers/fighters to aid the capships in taking out the shivan ships.

The Hecate isn't generally deployed to the front lines; but we are talking about a warzone with instant point-to-point travel, so it's scarcely hard to infiltrate even the best defenses. And slapping a Hecate into another system just adds problems in getting fighter, bombers to targets on time - plus, where do you think support ships come from?  Scarcely much use calling for rearming when it takes a couple of days to arrive (NB: it's unclear as to the exact time of subspace travel, however FS1 puts the Lucifer, once departed, as taking 40 hours to travel through the Sol-DS jumpnode in realspace time terms given both the perspective of the text and the time length of the last mission)

It's this same reason that you don't have - or rather, don't see Hecates heavily supported by cruisers, etc.  Even if the GTVA has enough ships for it, we're talking a truly vast area of space to cover.  If you cluster battlegroups around the lead ship, then you're leaving huge gaps for the enemy to maneuver into, flank you, attack planets, etc.  It's like going to the trenches in WW1, building a gigantic pillbox in No Mans Land, and then watching the enemy walk calmly round the side of it into your side of the battlefield.

In any case, this weakness of the Hecate applies to every ship; even this purported uber-cruiser type thing will have - more than a Hecate due to its smaller size and the rediraction of outputtable power to several larger anti-capship weapons - big defensive weaknesses than can be exploited by exactly such an attack.

 

Offline TrashMan

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A dedicated carrier has to be defended by other ships.
Even in WW2 - where you couldn't jump in and get close personal - carriers were protected by battelships, cruisers, frigates & destroyers.

While part of hte battlegroup could be split to do a differnt task, the carrier was never left without ample defenses.
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