[vyper]

If you stoop to their levels, you've already lost.

[IPAndrews]

Once again you're totally missed the point. We've all already lost! 

[aldo_14]

Well the world isn't "right" is it. It's all well and good having morals but when the other guy doesn't they're always going to get the better of you unless you stoop to their level. I'm 100% behind the Israelis on this.

Does that justify targeting the civillian population with high explosives in response to a third party action?

[IPAndrews]

Does that justify targeting the civillian population with high explosives in response to a third party action?

They're not "targetting civilians" and you know it. So I won't even bother answering that.

[aldo_14]

Does that justify targeting the civillian population with high explosives in response to a third party action?

They're not "targetting civilians" and you know it. So I won't even bother answering that.

Then what do you call targeting the civillian infrastructure?

EDIT; I mean, if they were only hitting Hezbollah or (in Gaza) terrorist/militants, fair enough - I have no objections.  But destroying bridges, ports, power plants?  We've all seen the devastation.......

[Mefustae]

Does that justify targeting the civillian population with high explosives in response to a third party action?

They're not "targetting civilians" and you know it. So I won't even bother answering that.

Israel has openly admitted to targeting civilian areas - and by extension the civilians dwelling within - because they believe Hezbollah is hiding within these areas, so answer away.

[IPAndrews]

because they believe Hezbollah is hiding within these areas, so answer away.

So they're targetting Hezbollah then. 

[IPAndrews]

Then what do you call targeting the civillian infrastructure?

I call it targetting Lebanon's infrastructure  

Inappropriate prefixing of the word "civilian" aside, Israel clearly believe the country's infrastructure supports those who would attack them and thus is a fair target. It's one of their more debatable decisions but under the circumstances I'm not going to condemn them for it.

So anyway. This thread needs to die now. Everyone has said their bit and are just labouring points now.

[aldo_14]

Then what do you call targeting the civillian infrastructure?

I call it targetting Lebanon's infrastructure 

Inappropriate prefixing of the word "civilian" aside, Israel clearly believe the country's infrastructure supports those who would attack them and thus is a fair target. It's one of their more debatable decisions but under the circumstances I'm not going to condemn them for it.

So anyway. This thread needs to die now. Everyone has said their bit and are just labouring points now.

But what if, say, Hezbollah claim to be targeting Israeli infrastructure and believe it to be fair to try and shut down commerce in (for example) Haifa through rocket barrage?  Where exactly do we draw the line that makes collective punishment ok?  Would it be ok for the British government of the 80s to bomb Dublin because they believed they supported the IRA?

And it is the civillian infrastructure.  It is civillian facilities, roads, etc.  Things like power stations.  Ran by the democratically elected government  - not Hezbollah (even if 2 members are, purely to avoid a civil war) - this same government who have ordered the Lebanese army not to fire in response to Israeli attacks.

[Mefustae]

because they believe Hezbollah is hiding within these areas, so answer away.

So they're targetting Hezbollah then. 

They're targeting civilian areas where they think Hezollah is hiding amongst civilians. Regardless of whether or not Hezbollah is actually hiding there, which remains open to debate, the fact of the matter is that Israel is targeting civilians in their attacks, thereby invalidating your earler statement that they are doing no such thing.

[IPAndrews]

Everyone has said their bit and are just labouring points now.

Open those legs wide and remember your breathing exercises guys. 

[aldo_14]

So you don't have an answer when challenged, then.

Interesting.

[Colonol Dekker]

I think this thread has subsided after weeks of debate.
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..........(how can i add some life to it?)
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.If Hez really wanted the best for their people, why hide amongst a population centre expecting some sort of all encompasing safety net, They're just bring the consequences down on innocents, At least have the balls to go away and take it like a man. Dont allow innocents to fall by the hand meant for you...




*This should stir up at least one active train of thought*

[Kosh]

This thread will be like the most recent evolution thread: It just won't die.

[vyper]

Right, would the people saying "ZOMG! Thread death is upon us!" just butt out? The thread was doing just fine and this kind of crap just qualifies as "PostCount++;".

Now back to the matter at hand:

Israel is to create a border zone in Lebanon (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm). They're willing to let international peacekeepers run it. My worry is this: we end up bogged down worse than Iraq and with no exit strategy. Thoughts?

[Roanoke]

Well Israel has to do something. And they did urge civilians to move north outta the way.

[aldo_14]

If Hez really wanted the best for their people, why hide amongst a population centre expecting some sort of all encompasing safety net, They're just bring the consequences down on innocents, At least have the balls to go away and take it like a man. Dont allow innocents to fall by the hand meant for you...

Oh, there's no excuse for hiding behind civvies.  But there's also no excuse for taking actions that you know will result in widespread civillian deaths, either.  I think the IRA-Dublin (or even Catholic areas of Belfast) analogy still stands.

Right, would the people saying "ZOMG! Thread death is upon us!" just butt out? The thread was doing just fine and this kind of crap just qualifies as "PostCount++;".

Now back to the matter at hand:

Israel is to create a border zone in Lebanon (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm). They're willing to let international peacekeepers run it. My worry is this: we end up bogged down worse than Iraq and with no exit strategy. Thoughts?

In theory, it's better than war.  It's a ****ty, ****ty situation and the only solution is the one that's slightly less faeces caked than the others, frankly.  And at the moment it seems the best solution would be a UN peacekeeping force - with sanctions for both Israel and Lebanon/Syria/Iran (depending on exactly what happens) in the event of further use of force - authorized to militarily disarm Hezbollah until the Lebanese army can take over security of the south.

Of course, you'd also need to apply some form of fund-raising / reparations to rebuild Lebanon; if the elected government collapses under the strain of this bombardment, then any chance of resolution is gone - I wouldn't be surprised to see Syria march in with troops again, or Lebanon to become a puppet government, thanks to the destruction wreaked upon it.

[EagleCAP]

One really really weird thing that I've noticed on TV - for some weird reason, in some of the casualty reports the media is putting out, the Hezbollah are being put in the "civilian" category! I heard somebody say that in some Lebanese villiage, "30 civilians have been killed, INCLUDING SEVERAL HEZBOLLAH FIGHTERS.   Since when are the terrorists civilians?

[Ghostavo]

One really really weird thing that I've noticed on TV - for some weird reason, in some of the casualty reports the media is putting out, the Hezbollah are being put in the "civilian" category! I heard somebody say that in some Lebanese villiage, "30 civilians have been killed, INCLUDING SEVERAL HEZBOLLAH FIGHTERS.   Since when are the terrorists civilians?

They probably mix both because they can only count bodies. How the hell will they know who was a "terrorist" or who wasn't?

[Nuclear1]

Well, apparently they can tell since they included the phrase "including several Hezbollah fighters."

And thanks for making the point that everyone arguing pro-Israel in the thread has been saying:

How the hell will they know who was a "terrorist" or who wasn't?