[CP5670]

Wow, how did this thread become so big?

[Hippo]

trashman keeps trying to win

[Rhythmic]

trashman keeps trying to win

And failing.........

[Bob-san]

*Sigh*

Have fun with this thread... I'm not returning again....


But Whatever.... i dont carry anyways....

[TrashMan]

ROTFLMAO!

Unbelievable. You're probably the only person in the world who would unapologetically use altered tables in something like this. I suppose the fact that degrading the Shivan's beams would also have the effect of making the Sathanas's rear LRed less effective wasn't a problem then?

Now that you mention it it will take it 2 more seconds between each shot...not that that will affect the battle in any significant way. I did use modded tabels but the total differences shouldn't add up to more than a 5% total gain for the Orion in firepower in this scenario..

Hell, I can repet the mission with clean tables, but as I told you before, I did a similar mission when I first got FS2 and it stil lended up the same way.. Not that it matter..

And the LREd can be easily destroyed by the Orion - resulting in hte Orion being hit once, and hte Sath loosing it's rear cannon and having it's belly exposed.....

We never see that kind of pinpoint accuracy in the game. Why are you using it now? Furthermore why are you only giving this ability to the terrans? Yet again you're continually stacking the odds in favour of the side of the argument you are on regardless of how fair it is.

Think again. I've seen many times during the game that sometimes capships target weapons..especialyl on the Sath since it's a big target (and even more common if they attack the sath from the front, since it's the closest system/turret for them to target)

The entire argument between the two of us is as to whether a single Orion and kill a Sathanas. If you are willing to conceed that it could only happen if the Sathanas pilot was a complete idiot I'm willing to end the matter here.

In that scenario yes...and possibly in another one.. You see, the Sath captain doens't have to be a idiot - he can just be sure of himself.
For instance, he can try and turn around immediatley... or he can try to bring hte rear cannon to bear.
That agressive tactic sounds far more logical for Shivans than running for 15 minutes while the enemy is shooting at you and then turning around.

Now all by itself those two tactics aren't bad... IF they work. They can work, but there's no guarantee.. Of course, in order to win the Orion's captain has to be a good one. He should take out the rear cannon if possible and try to stay at the saths side or below it.

If the rear cannon is lost the Shivans captain would probably try to bing hte front ones to bear by turnign immediately. that probably won't work well, but how long will it take for hte shivans to abandon that tactic? How much damage will the sathanas take before that? It's engines compromisea  big percentage of it' HP, but if it's spends several minutes trying to catch the Orion in it's weapons arc it will suffer quite some damage....and how much of that damage will be to it's engines? slowing it down..
If the Sath's captain starts the pull away and turn tactic then, then the Sath is in far worse position - it's allready taken some damage (? of it to the engines) and it's running from a Orion ow can again, shoot at it's engines, slowing it down...increasing the time it takes for it to pull away enough...and again giving the Orion more time to hit it's engines...

I'd say a Orion has good chances to win in this scenario too, but I wouldn't call the Sath's captain stupid...

[Mobius]

Ehm,sorry.

But I had the Orion win,without modifying the mission!I have a screenshot but even if compressed is too big to attach here.

1)The Ships were too close.I don't know why,but for most of the mission the Orion speed was 23-24 23-24 23-24 and only near the end the Sathanas could advance.
2)As I said,the ships were too close and fired with their laser turrets,targeting subsystems ecc. The Orion could fire with just one BGreen, I don't know if Karajorma has disabled it with FRED or theturrets on the Sathanas have destroyed it quite istantly.
3)Karajorma paid attention on the backG,but the planet has to be slightly rotated
4)Anyway an orion can be placed 700 meters above the Sathanas or similar in order to use three BGreens.Unfortunately they don't aim on the Sath's engines,but if you see the screenshot the Orion has destroyed one engine.

[karajorma]

Now that you mention it it will take it 2 more seconds between each shot...not that that will affect the battle in any significant way. I did use modded tabels but the total differences shouldn't add up to more than a 5% total gain for the Orion in firepower in this scenario..

Hell, I can repet the mission with clean tables, but as I told you before, I did a similar mission when I first got FS2 and it stil lended up the same way.. Not that it matter..

Use clean tables. Until you've done that you've done **** all. And run the mission at 1x speed too. Running at greater than 1x seems to be triggering a bug in the beam code that favours the Orion.

Think again. I've seen many times during the game that sometimes capships target weapons..especialyl on the Sath since it's a big target (and even more common if they attack the sath from the front, since it's the closest system/turret for them to target)

Name one.

In that scenario yes...and possibly in another one.. You see, the Sath captain doens't have to be a idiot - he can just be sure of himself.
For instance, he can try and turn around immediatley... or he can try to bring hte rear cannon to bear.
That agressive tactic sounds far more logical for Shivans than running for 15 minutes while the enemy is shooting at you and then turning around.

Now all by itself those two tactics aren't bad... IF they work. They can work, but there's no guarantee.. Of course, in order to win the Orion's captain has to be a good one. He should take out the rear cannon if possible and try to stay at the saths side or below it.

If the rear cannon is lost the Shivans captain would probably try to bing hte front ones to bear by turnign immediately. that probably won't work well, but how long will it take for hte shivans to abandon that tactic? How much damage will the sathanas take before that? It's engines compromisea  big percentage of it' HP, but if it's spends several minutes trying to catch the Orion in it's weapons arc it will suffer quite some damage....and how much of that damage will be to it's engines? slowing it down..
If the Sath's captain starts the pull away and turn tactic then, then the Sath is in far worse position - it's allready taken some damage (? of it to the engines) and it's running from a Orion ow can again, shoot at it's engines, slowing it down...increasing the time it takes for it to pull away enough...and again giving the Orion more time to hit it's engines...

I'd say a Orion has good chances to win in this scenario too, but I wouldn't call the Sath's captain stupid...

And you're assuming that the Shivans have no idea of the capabilities of their craft. Do you not think that if there is a big gap in the Sathanas' defences the Shivans will already know about it?

Yet again you're assuming that the Shivans are stupid. They really aren't.

And that's before we count the sheer amount of damage needed to disable the Sathanas. We're talking about 42% of the hull here. With some of those engines actually out of range of the Orions beams. The Orion couldn't possibly hope to take down all of a Saths engines.

Ehm,sorry.

But I had the Orion win,without modifying the mission!

Using 64x speed right? Try it at 1x for the reasons I mentioned above.

[Mobius]

Well,sometimes the Slashes fired late as well as the BGreen.I don't know if this happened bacause of the speed.

[Bob-san]

I noticed a problem with the game code....

Sometimes, after an order is given, they start to ignore another ships. My example? The MP mission where you are to escort 3 NTC Aeolus's. I gave them commands, and they hit the cruiser. One salvo, and two minutes later, they ignored the cruiser I told them to destroy. I had to repeat the command for them to blow up the NTC.

[Hippo]

did you tell your wingmen to ignore the cruiser? if so, then thats why.

[TrashMan]

Use clean tables. Until you've done that you've done **** all. And run the mission at 1x speed too. Running at greater than 1x seems to be triggering a bug in the beam code that favours the Orion.

What part of "I made the same mission wiht retail FS2 and it stil lended up teh same" didn't you inderstand?

Name one.

It's not a scripted/triggered event - the aI does it on its own. But an example - HIGH NOON.

And you're assuming that the Shivans have no idea of the capabilities of their craft. Do you not think that if there is a big gap in the Sathanas' defences the Shivans will already know about it?

Yet again you're assuming that the Shivans are stupid. They really aren't.

No I'm not. They are aware o the capabilites of thei craft but:
a) Are they aware of hte Orions capabilites?
b) Do they know what the Orion will try to do?
c) Can they know for sure they won't manage to catch it without running first?

And that's before we count the sheer amount of damage needed to disable the Sathanas. We're talking about 42% of the hull here. With some of those engines actually out of range of the Orions beams. The Orion couldn't possibly hope to take down all of a Saths engines.

You don't need to disable, only slow it down a bit. It adds up.


So you see, the Orion would need a excellent tactic and exceelent execution to pull this off, not to mention a shivan captain that wil ltry to shoot him down with the tail beam first...or won't run away IMMEDIATELY....

[Mobius]

did you tell your wingmen to ignore the cruiser? if so, then thats why.

they have been attacked by oter forces and responded.
Someone here is trying to defend the Sathanas,someone else is defending the Orion etc. this discussion is not balanced.

[Bob-san]

Oro.................. 

I still say let two people take control of each, and see who wins.

[karajorma]

As I said before Bob-San, an attempt to FRED that mission would result in a mission that crashes FS2 when played.

What part of "I made the same mission wiht retail FS2 and it stil lended up teh same" didn't you inderstand?

It's not that I don't understand you. It's that I think you're talking bollocks and no such thing happens. Same way that you said that the mission you posted resulted in the destruction of the Sathanas and yet when tested it actually resulted in the destruction of the Orion.

Post that retail mission. Oh yes you can't cause you lost it with your hard drive. You've already presented missions which you claim did one thing and in fact did something else when tested. In fact by testing using tables that favoured the Orion you have actually cheated in favour of the side you claim is better. I'm not taking a single word you say in this discussion on trust because quite frankly you haven't done a thing to earn that trust.

Either remake it or shut the **** up about it. Cause I'm not going to count a mission I've never tried myself as evidence for anything.

It's not a scripted/triggered event - the aI does it on its own. But an example - HIGH NOON.

And when in High Noon does either ship specifically target the turrets on the other ship? I've got an awful feeling that you're simply assuming that the random subsystem destruction that is an inevitable part of the game is intentional because it suits your arguments to do so.

No I'm not. They are aware o the capabilites of thei craft but:
a) Are they aware of hte Orions capabilites?

Given the fact that they've destroyed several by the time we first see the Sathanas I'd say yes.

b) Do they know what the Orion will try to do?

Given that they've had to jump in and get very close to the Sathanas in the exact spot where it has a weak spot, there's a pretty good chance that they will. There's no sensible reason for performing that manouver other than to attempt what you suggest after all.

c) Can they know for sure they won't manage to catch it without running first?

I still think that they can probably rotate on the spot and catch the Orion despite what you think.

So you see, the Orion would need a excellent tactic and exceelent execution to pull this off, not to mention a shivan captain that wil ltry to shoot him down with the tail beam first...or won't run away IMMEDIATELY....

So in other words a Shivan captain who doesn't attempt to use the weapons at his disposale to kill the enemy

[Bob-san]

I know it crashes. However, it would be a great battle if it DIDNT crash... how about both of you quickly FRED a mission with each of your scenarios, and don't test it yourself. The general rules are only 3 ships allowed; GTD Orion, SJ Sathanas, and Alpha 1. Post an ignore on Alpha 1, and only allow training lasers (to prevent the use of Alpha 1 to disable any part of the Sathanas). 4km out from the battle, have them duke it out. Both of you should follow these rules if you really want to test this out accurately. No biased on either side, and testable for both. Also, Trashman, save a copy to C: ... that way Karajorma can look in there to make sure no unfair advantage is to Terrans. You can do the same, make sure there is no unfair advantage to the Shivans.

It's up to you, though.

[Kie99]

The too-many subsystems on screen crash was fixed ages ago, AFAIK it's still fixed.

[karajorma]

I know it crashes. However, it would be a great battle if it DIDNT crash... how about both of you quickly FRED a mission with each of your scenarios, and don't test it yourself. The general rules are only 3 ships allowed; GTD Orion, SJ Sathanas, and Alpha 1. Post an ignore on Alpha 1, and only allow training lasers (to prevent the use of Alpha 1 to disable any part of the Sathanas). 4km out from the battle, have them duke it out. Both of you should follow these rules if you really want to test this out accurately. No biased on either side, and testable for both. Also, Trashman, save a copy to C: ... that way Karajorma can look in there to make sure no unfair advantage is to Terrans. You can do the same, make sure there is no unfair advantage to the Shivans.

It's up to you, though.

I've already done that. I posted a mission and challenged Trashman to come up with any tactics he cared to in order to beat it. I'm still waiting.

[TrashMan]

Kaj, you again completely miss the point.

In a sense you are "metagaming" if I can use this tearm when you claim that the Shivan captain has to be an idiot.
A Sathanas has never fought a Orion before 1 on 1, so how on earth can the shivan know that a certain tactic WON'T work?

Rotating on the spot can very well work - depending on the position and skill of the Orion.
Trying to fry it with the rear LRed might also work - MIGHT

The thing about battle is - it allways depends on the actions of BOTH combatants. There's no way for the Shivan comander know where the Orion will go next or what it will target. You base your strategy on the expert knowlede og both ships and varous simulations - the shivan captain doesn't have thet luxury.

So no, he doesn't have to be a idiot.

It's that I think you're talking bollocks and no such thing happens. Same way that you said that the mission you posted resulted in the destruction of the Sathanas and yet when tested it actually resulted in the destruction of the Orion.

Strange how the mission works for other people, eh?

And when in High Noon does either ship specifically target the turrets on the other ship? I've got an awful feeling that you're simply assuming that the random subsystem destruction that is an inevitable part of the game is intentional because it suits your arguments to do so.

I never saikd the ships fire from every availabe weapon on a singel turret - but every now and then the Collie fired the Saths beam cannons (that's cause I didn't destroy them all - left 2) untill it disarmed hte Sath.

Aditioanly, we have to clear one thing - are we talking about a stricly in-game (FRED) Sath vs. Orion scenario, or are we talking about a tactical battle ina FS universe (coause I'm sure both there and in RL you can target weapons...)


In concusion you fail to see the obvious flaw in your logic - the question asked here is CAN a Orion beat a Sat (and vice-versa) not will it do jsut that every time. Both ship can jump out ya know... but in that case no one would ever win. So for the sake of reasoning we'll assume they will both fight to the death.

So you're basicly outright denying ANY possiblity that a Orion could destroy a sath other that a Sath's captain is a idiot..
If you realyl think that, then according to  you some of the greatests generals and tacticians in history are also idiots - since they lost in the end (mostly due to NOT having a full picture of the battlefield, which commanders rarely do)

[karajorma]

In a sense you are "metagaming" if I can use this tearm when you claim that the Shivan captain has to be an idiot.
A Sathanas has never fought a Orion before 1 on 1, so how on earth can the shivan know that a certain tactic WON'T work?

Sorry but you're cheating to even suggest such a thing. The Shivans have fought Orions. They do know the strengths and weaknesses of the design.
The reason you're cheating is that you are suggesting that the Orion leaps in performing a manouver that expressly exploits a weakness in the Sathanas' design. Why are you saying that the Terrans have the information to perform such a manouver but insisting that the Shivans are ignorant of the Orions flaws despite the fact that the Orion is an older design which the Shivans have encountered several times before the appearance of the first Orion?

Yet again you're stacking the odds in your favour by giving one side information, weapons or tactics that you do not allow the other side to use. It's not fair. If the Terrans know the Sathanas well enough to perform a manouver like this (one which would be suicidal against a differently armed ship like say the Colossus) then why do you insist that the Shivans would know nothing about their enemy?

The thing about battle is - it allways depends on the actions of BOTH combatants. There's no way for the Shivan comander know where the Orion will go next or what it will target. You base your strategy on the expert knowlede og both ships and varous simulations - the shivan captain doesn't have thet luxury.

So no, he doesn't have to be a idiot.

So far you've only proved that the Orion will win if the Sathanas uses AI-Chase. The Sathanas commander would have to be an idiot to do that. Find another senario where the Orion can win and I might take you more seriously.

Strange how the mission works for other people, eh?

Who? Name one person who has tested the mission at 1x and had the Orion win.

I never saikd the ships fire from every availabe weapon on a singel turret - but every now and then the Collie fired the Saths beam cannons (that's cause I didn't destroy them all - left 2) untill it disarmed hte Sath.

Prove that it didn't simply fire at the Sathanas and happen to hit the beams.

Aditioanly, we have to clear one thing - are we talking about a stricly in-game (FRED) Sath vs. Orion scenario, or are we talking about a tactical battle ina FS universe (coause I'm sure both there and in RL you can target weapons...)

Which ever one you want. I'll beat you on either. But once you've picked one do me the favour of sticking with it.

So you're basicly outright denying ANY possiblity that a Orion could destroy a sath other that a Sath's captain is a idiot..
If you realyl think that, then according to  you some of the greatests generals and tacticians in history are also idiots - since they lost in the end (mostly due to NOT having a full picture of the battlefield, which commanders rarely do)

I can't think of any great general who lost a battle when he had the overwhelming superiority involved in a Sathanas vs Orion clash. Bear in mind that what you said about having a full picture of the battlefield is exactly the kind of misdirection you like to bring to these arguments. There is only one picture to be had. This is a 1 on 1 battle between the two. No reinforcements, no hidden forces ready for an ambush. Only a 2km destroyer sitting 500m away from you. I can't name a single great general who lost a battle which was that obvious. Feel free to name one. 

 You've yet to prove that a Sathanas can be beaten except for the ridiculous mission you posted earlier. You're yet to prove that the Sathanas can't simply rotate on the spot and blow it up. You're yet to prove that the Orion can get into that position without getting blown up.

You like to make it sound like the Orion could win most of the engagements from that position. It wouldn't. I doubt it would win any at all but I'm willing to  conceed that given exceptional circumstances it might be possible for an Orion to win but the circumstances would have to be very exceptional. If you're willing to say the same then yet again I'd consider the matter closed. But if you want to say that the Orion has a reasonable chance of winning you'd  better come up with something a damn sight more substancial than simply saying "Alexander the Great or Hannibal Barca could do it"!

[TrashMan]

Yet again you're stacking the odds in your favour by giving one side information, weapons or tactics that you do not allow the other side to use. It's not fair. If the Terrans know the Sathanas well enough to perform a manouver like this (one which would be suicidal against a differently armed ship like say the Colossus) then why do you insist that the Shivans would know nothing about their enemy?

I'm not.
But the Orion doesn't have any such balant weakneses... lack of fighterdefence is one, but it would take time for tha Sathana to capitalize on it. It takes time to lauch fighters nad for those same fighters to gain space superiority over the Orions fightercover.

The thing about battle is - it allways depends on the actions of BOTH combatants. There's no way for the Shivan comander know where the Orion will go next or what it will target. You base your strategy on the expert knowlede og both ships and varous simulations - the shivan captain doesn't have thet luxury.

Strange how the mission works for other people, eh?

Who? Name one person who has tested the mission at 1x and had the Orion win.

Lt.GeneralMobius

I never saikd the ships fire from every availabe weapon on a singel turret - but every now and then the Collie fired the Saths beam cannons (that's cause I didn't destroy them all - left 2) untill it disarmed hte Sath.

Prove that it didn't simply fire at the Sathanas and happen to hit the beams.

You prove that it did.

Aditioanly, we have to clear one thing - are we talking about a stricly in-game (FRED) Sath vs. Orion scenario, or are we talking about a tactical battle ina FS universe (coause I'm sure both there and in RL you can target weapons...)

Which ever one you want. I'll beat you on either. But once you've picked one do me the favour of sticking with it.

That depends.. Do you want to drag in weapons targeting into the debate or not?

You've yet to prove that a Sathanas can be beaten except for the ridiculous mission you posted earlier. You're yet to prove that the Sathanas can't simply rotate on the spot and blow it up. You're yet to prove that the Orion can get into that position without getting blown up.

You've yet to prove that it can't

You like to make it sound like the Orion could win most of the engagements from that position. It wouldn't. I doubt it would win any at all but I'm willing to  conceed that given exceptional circumstances it might be possible for an Orion to win but the circumstances would have to be very exceptional. If you're willing to say the same then yet again I'd consider the matter closed. But if you want to say that the Orion has a reasonable chance of winning you'd  better come up with something a damn sight more substancial than simply saying "Alexander the Great or Hannibal Barca could do it"!

Agreed. The circumnstances would indeed need to be exceptional (or the commander and crew really great and those on the sath mediocre at best)

Fixed the quoting - Karajorma