[karajorma]

Oh -  I re-did that Orion vs. Sath mission...

Why?

I've already proved that the Sathanas can avoid being destroyed by moving in a straight line. Which just goes to show how ridiculous your attempts to FRED the mission using attack orders really was.

So why you waited until I've already proved you wrong to post the mission is beyond me.

[TrashMan]

Oh -  I re-did that Orion vs. Sath mission...

Why?

I've already proved that the Sathanas can avoid being destroyed by moving in a straight line. Which just goes to show how ridiculous your attempts to FRED the mission using attack orders really was.

So why you waited until I've already proved you wrong to post the mission is beyond me.

Becouse you asked for it.
And while the Sath can indeed avoid destruction, it gets heavily damaged by the Orion...

But this is one of those case-to-case scenarios. X will happen if A does B. If A does C Y will happen.
This just goes to prove that a Sath is really a mediocre design.

If a ship so smaller can destroy it or heavily damage in ANY scenario (given that the Sath is fully operational) then it's not that good.

Collie rulez!

[Polpolion]

HEY GUYS WOW A FENRIS CAN KILL A FULLY CAPABLE SATHANAS HEAD ON!!!!!

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[karajorma]

Becouse you asked for it.

I asked for it several pages back because I knew if I didn't you'd try to pull this kind of ****. So now when it's been proved that the Sathanas can win the battle by simply travelling in a straight line for 15 minutes you decide to post a mission to prove that if you stack the mission in favour of the Orion then it will win.

No one was calling you a liar. We're all well aware that if you write a mission that way the Orion can win. The reason is not due to poor design on the Sathanas but due to the fact that even a trained chimp would come up with better tatics than the ones the Sathanas uses in your mission. Hell sitting still on the spot and rotating is smarter than what it actually does.

And while the Sath can indeed avoid destruction, it gets heavily damaged by the Orion...

The sathanas takes 10 - 15% damage. In a mission I took three minutes to write. Where I did no optimisation. I didn't test if the Sathanas could simply revolve on the spot and blow the **** out of the Orion. I didn't test if the Sathanas would be better served by moving away in a way that brought the LRed to bear.

You claimed that it would be destroyed. My interest was in proving how full of **** that claim was.

But this is one of those case-to-case scenarios. X will happen if A does B. If A does C Y will happen.
This just goes to prove that a Sath is really a mediocre design.

No it doesn't. It's like saying that the USS Nimitz is a poor design cause if they set off all the bombs at once the ship blows up. Using AI-Chase is ****ing stupid. It's suicidal. No sensible commander of the Sathanas would ever try to fight the ship that way. Words can not suitably express the stupidity inherent in doing it. The very fact that changing tactics means that the Sathanas wins with only minimal damage should prove the sheer magnitude of the stupidity needed to fight the ship that way.

If a ship so smaller can destroy it or heavily damage in ANY scenario (given that the Sath is fully operational) then it's not that good.

Except that I question that an Orion could even get that close to the Sathanas. Your mission starts out with the Orion in optimum firing position without any regard to how it got there. It's conceivable that the Sathanas could manouver to bring its guns to bear during the time it takes the Orion to coast to a stop. Have you tested it to see if the Sathanas can manouver into a better position while the Orion is jumping in? I'll bet money that you haven't.

Furthermore we have no proof that Terran jump engines are that accurate even if they wanted them to be.

But do you know what the real ****ing disgrace in your argument is? I tested the mission you gave me. When ran at 1x the Orion was still destroyed after 4 minutes. At 8x it was destroyed after about 8-9 mins. At 64x the two got stalemated and after 2 hours they were still fighting.

Kinda proves how full of crap you were on this matter that even the mission you provided doesn't result in the Sathanas taking more than 20% damage when run under proper mission conditions.

[Hippo]

time compression breaks beams by the way... i thought the scp fixed it once already though.

[karajorma]

Well if nothing else good comes out of this at least we have a nice comparison mission that can be used to show this behaviour

[Mobius]

HEY GUYS WOW A FENRIS CAN KILL A FULLY CAPABLE SATHANAS HEAD ON!!!!!

:

Karajorma:Did you play or at least check my mission i attaches some posts ago?Though there were many other ships to assist the Orion,they work in tandem.Of course Command we'll never risk losing an Orion without support.An Aeolus,a Deimos or another ship would be deployed for AAA cover and beam support.A single Orion is simply impossible...

[karajorma]

I didn't play it for the simple reason that I haven't seen you make the claim yet that an unsupported Orion can take out a Sathanas.

If you're going to make that claim I'll be more than happy to play it and prove you wrong

[Mobius]

It's more canon.
Two BGreens of the Orion inflict more damage than two SGreens of the Aeolus and 4 Slashes(uhm....).
Without them the Sath will be untouchable by the BGreens,but this can be fixed moving the Orion ahead in the Z axis.
(I'm not going to change my mission for it,because the slow Orion will *********** in the second mission)

[TrashMan]

No one was calling you a liar. We're all well aware that if you write a mission that way the Orion can win. The reason is not due to poor design on the Sathanas but due to the fact that even a trained chimp would come up with better tatics than the ones the Sathanas uses in your mission. Hell sitting still on the spot and rotating is smarter than what it actually does.

Assuming you can rotate on the spot..

And B.. even a untrained Chimp in a Collie would do better. A total, brainless idiot that would put Command to shame, a ameba on the Collie can deal with an Orion better than a Sath.

The sathanas takes 10 - 15% damage. In a mission I took three minutes to write. Where I did no optimisation. I didn't test if the Sathanas could simply revolve on the spot and blow the **** out of the Orion. I didn't test if the Sathanas would be better served by moving away in a way that brought the LRed to bear.

I tested it. It can't turn if the Orion is so close. They will collide.
But you completely miss the point. By scripting I can make a Faustus kill a Sath if I want to.

The point is that The Sath clearly has big, exploitable weakneses and that the GTVA Command is a big pile of morons to lose so many ships to it.

You claimed that it would be destroyed. My interest was in proving how full of **** that claim was.

It can be destroyed... in a specific scenario

Except that I question that an Orion could even get that close to the Sathanas. Your mission starts out with the Orion in optimum firing position without any regard to how it got there. It's conceivable that the Sathanas could manouver to bring its guns to bear during the time it takes the Orion to coast to a stop. Have you tested it to see if the Sathanas can manouver into a better position while the Orion is jumping in? I'll bet money that you haven't.

Furthermore we have no proof that Terran jump engines are that accurate even if they wanted them to be.

Question is as much as you like. Means squat to me. How did it got there? Maby it jumped in? Maby hte Sath ignored it as it got better things to do? Maby the Sath was distracted while fighting other ships (ever heard of a little thing called diversion)?

5 klicks is considered way off course for a jump, so I'd say they're pretty acurrate.

But do you know what the real ****ing disgrace in your argument is? I tested the mission you gave me. When ran at 1x the Orion was still destroyed after 4 minutes. At 8x it was destroyed after about 8-9 mins. At 64x the two got stalemated and after 2 hours they were still fighting.

Kinda proves how full of crap you were on this matter that even the mission you provided doesn't result in the Sathanas taking more than 20% damage when run under proper mission conditions.

The mission worls by me....Sath dead..every time.

[Mobius]

The Southern Cross has initially based on this-different ways to destroy Shivan Juggernauts.
Though the storyline has changed,many missions with Sathanas being destroyed are present.
I had three Hecates destroy a Sath facing it on its front

Specific scenario:
Such missions require a specific scenario(uhm,why you use so many Italian words?).Ok,we are proving our theories without considering fighter/complements ecc. High Noon and the missions which came before it didn't gave us so much opportunities to learn as many things as possible about the Sathanas.
Now we aren't considering these things,we are just talking about strange AI behaviour and strange meneuvers.FS doesn't reduce the speed of a ship with most of its engines destroyed.A slow Sathanas can be destroyed.

Why not the Hecate?Ships like the Mentu have strange weapons.We can insert a Hecate with two frontal BGreens,and this will make the difference because the Orion can use only one BGreen against a target located ahead(in this case,the Sathanas when moves straight on).The Hecate,thanks to its design,can use two BGreens+its two TerSlash.Change the destroyer class to Orion and add another BGreen.Let's see if the Sathanas survives.Certanily it will sustain much damage.

It's not canon because you are changing a default weapon bla...bla but as I said some entries are strange.The Orion fires a BGreen beam from a turret with three little barrels...come on!
Probably this happened because of the Repulse.It had to hit the Colossus with a beam,and only that ex-laser turret could do the job.

[karajorma]

Assuming you can rotate on the spot.

You can. If you've never seen ships do it in game you've obviously not been paying attention.

And B.. even a untrained Chimp in a Collie would do better. A total, brainless idiot that would put Command to shame, a ameba on the Collie can deal with an Orion better than a Sath.

And what has that got to do with anything? What is at debate is whether an Orion can kill a Sathanas. I couldn't give a flying toss about your attempts to drag other ships in to justify the fact that you've already been proved wrong.

I tested it.

And then conveniently lost the mission no doubt

  It can't turn if the Orion is so close. They will collide.

I'm taking about the ship rotating on the Z axis. That could be done easily without colision to bring the LRed to bear. You'll have trouble getting FRED to do it but in a real battle between the two using the starting positions you gave me it would be an exceedingly simple manouver for the captain to perform.

But you completely miss the point. By scripting I can make a Faustus kill a Sath if I want to.

So now telling the Sathanas to travel in a straight line for 15 minutes before doing what you originally had it do counts as scripting? Don't try to make it seem as if what I'm doing is any more a case of scripting the battle than what you were doing. We both gave the ships orders. The only difference is that I tried to give sensible ones to both ships. You didn't even try.

The point is that The Sath clearly has big, exploitable weakneses and that the GTVA Command is a big pile of morons to lose so many ships to it.

Hardly as big or exploitable as you originally claimed though is it? Had you simply said that the Sathanas is weak from the rear, the GTVA should have concentrated on attacking it there I wouldn't have batted an eyelid cause any fool knows that. It was your ridiculous assertion that the Sathanas could be killed by a single Orion attacking it from behind that I felt needed to be called.

It can be destroyed... in a specific scenario

In a specific ridiculous senario. If I place a Fenris behind the colossus and don't let either of them move it could probably kill it too. What does that tell us about either ship? **** all really. It's not a fair test of the capabilities of either ship.

Question is as much as you like. Means squat to me. How did it got there? Maby it jumped in?

As I pointed out have you tested to see if the Sathanas could get its guns into range when the Orion jumps in? Nope. You haven't. You simply placed the Orion in the optimum firing position and assumed that it could reach that position safely with no damage. That is almost as stupid an assertion as the original one that started this debate.

Maby hte Sath ignored it as it got better things to do? Maby the Sath was distracted while fighting other ships (ever heard of a little thing called diversion)?

Oh so an Orion can singlehandedly kill the Sathanas when it has help? Fine if you're going to give the Orion help I can give the Sathanas help too. The orion can't singlehandedly take out the Sathanas because the Ravana I had waiting in subspace will jump in and fry the Orion with its beams.

This is why I find arguing with you so funny Trashman. Your very inability to stick to the topic at hand makes this topic the most ridiculous assertion you've made since the whole "The Maxim doesn't have a 3km range cause I say so" argument.

If you're claiming that the Orion can beat the Sathanas singlehanded why the hell are you falling back on having to have other ships present in order for your strategy to work?

The mission worls by me....Sath dead..every time.

I used retail data and FS2_Open 3.6.9. What did you use?

[Polpolion]

The mission worls by me....Sath dead..every time.

I used retail data and FS2_Open 3.6.9. What did you use?
   

I think he uses the buld where an Orion has 13 BFReds and 86 million hitpoints.

[Mobius]

Funny.But  his theory seems to be quite correct,despite from what Karajorma says.

[karajorma]

Funny.But  his theory seems to be quite correct,despite from what Karajorma says.

Which theory?

[TrashMan]

Eh.. I use the 3.6.9. R7 build with slightly modified tables.

Terran Huge Turrets have a bigger punch, but the Sath is allmost allways out of range anyway. If it they were constantly shooting, they would give a max of 5% increase to the Orions firepower....
The re-charge rate of shivan beams is degraded slightly, but it has no bearing on this mission anyway, since hte Orion is dead after the first Sath salvo...

And then conveniently lost the mission no doubt 

There's nothing convininent in loosing HALF A YEAR worth of modding material.....

I'm taking about the ship rotating on the Z axis. That could be done easily without colision to bring the LRed to bear. You'll have trouble getting FRED to do it but in a real battle between the two using the starting positions you gave me it would be an exceedingly simple manouver for the captain to perform.

And the LREd can be easily destroyed by the Orion - resulting in hte Orion being hit once, and hte Sath loosing it's rear cannon and having it's belly exposed.....

This is why I find arguing with you so funny Trashman. Your very inability to stick to the topic at hand makes this topic the most ridiculous assertion you've made since the whole "The Maxim doesn't have a 3km range cause I say so" argument.

And very inablility to tell the truth is why I find arguing with you pointless.
My arguments was "it's highly possible that the Maxims extreeme range is a [V] oversight, so *I* am taking it with a grain of salt"..
Get your facts straight man.


And check what's the topic of this thread....

[karajorma]

Eh.. I use the 3.6.9. R7 build with slightly modified tables.

Terran Huge Turrets have a bigger punch, but the Sath is allmost allways out of range anyway. If it they were constantly shooting, they would give a max of 5% increase to the Orions firepower....
The re-charge rate of shivan beams is degraded slightly, but it has no bearing on this mission anyway, since hte Orion is dead after the first Sath salvo...

ROTFLMAO!

Unbelievable. You're probably the only person in the world who would unapologetically use altered tables in something like this. I suppose the fact that degrading the Shivan's beams would also have the effect of making the Sathanas's rear LRed less effective wasn't a problem then?

For three pages you've complained about how you can script a battle to have any result you want as if my giving the Sathanas a very simple script was in some way unfair and yet you think nothing of conducting tests using tables that improve the Orion while degrading the Sathanas. I'm dumbfounded that you would even admit to doing it.

And the LREd can be easily destroyed by the Orion - resulting in hte Orion being hit once, and hte Sath loosing it's rear cannon and having it's belly exposed.....

We never see that kind of pinpoint accuracy in the game. Why are you using it now? Furthermore why are you only giving this ability to the terrans? Yet again you're continually stacking the odds in favour of the side of the argument you are on regardless of how fair it is.

And check what's the topic of this thread....

That has nothing to do with anything. The entire argument between the two of us is as to whether a single Orion and kill a Sathanas. If you are willing to conceed that it could only happen if the Sathanas pilot was a complete idiot I'm willing to end the matter here.

[Bob-san]

I am 100% sure anyone who has played through parts of the FS2 campaign know what I will be talking about...

What happens when a wing of eight SF Maras jump in 300m away from you? Quite simply, you will most likely lose that fight.

I was playing a Terran Gauntlet with 2 respawns. The first three wings of fighters were easy, though my wingmen kept on dying. By the fourth or fifth wing, I was alone with 2 spawns. All of you know what happens when a wing of Myrmidon jump in halfway through the destruction of another wing. You are swamped... quickly. A loadout of 3 Stiletto II's, 2 Infernos (I think), and 24 (i think) Hornets on a Myrmidon using a Subach HL-7 and a quad-firing Prometheus S. You easily survive because of maneuverability and speed, against the Herc Mk.II's in the gauntlet. However, what happens when you are swamped with 4+ equals? Most of us can take 4 myrmidons in a 4-on-1 dogfight without losing. Sometimes you get lucky and make it out with no damage, sometimes you are dead with a hundred missiles locked on you. It's all about timing.

So, what does that have to do with a Sathanas v. Orion? It should show that, in a fair fight, either could win.

I actually recommend someone FREDs a mission for Karajorma and TrashMan. Put in that mission, built for a clean build of FS2 retail. Karajorma, take control of the Sathanas. TrashMan, take control of the Orion. Duke it out, starting the mission in a broadside (both jumped in next to each other). Beam-free-all for both, and take control. I recommend both of you try to outmaneuver eachother.

In that mission, If I was the orion, I'd try to take out the Sathanas's engines, and blow it up in a blind spot. If I was the Sathanas, I'd try to use my HP and ram into the Orion, until that ship blows up (fairly quickly, mind you). Remember that the Sathanas has both speed and up-front power. The orion has maneuverabilty and spread weaponry.

If the FS universe was the same as our own, I'd put money on human determination, and say the orion will win. A good captain would disable every beam possible before the second salvo. The terran captain would have to be desperate to take on the Sathanas 1v1. Sufficent maneuvering and disarming the SJ should be sufficent. Remember that the Shivans are colony-minded. Do what is best for everyone, even at the cost of yourself. They would probably do anything to win, if it was for a goal.

[karajorma]

I don't need to do a multiplayer test to show that the Orion can't win. The Sathanas' engines comprise 42% of the Sathanas' total hitpoints. There is no way that an Orion can do that kind of damage to a Sathanas in time to prevent it getting out of range of the Orions guns. So even if it hits the engines with every single shot it won't disable more than two of them before the Sathanas is out of range.

Once out of range it simply turns around and blasts the hell out of the Orion. The Orion has no defence against this tactic. It's just simply too slow to keep up with the Sathanas. Until someone can suggest a counter tactic to that I see no point in wasting my time with a multiplayer test.

Besides FREDding a mission wouldn't work anyway unless the crash caused by having too many damaged subsystems on the HUD has been fixed.

If the FS universe was the same as our own, I'd put money on human determination, and say the orion will win. A good captain would disable every beam possible before the second salvo.

Sorry but that's utter nonsense. The Orion won't survive the first salvo from the Sathanas.

[Hippo]

If the FS universe was the same as our own, I'd put money on human determination, and say the orion will win. A good captain would disable every beam possible before the second salvo. The terran captain would have to be desperate to take on the Sathanas 1v1. Sufficent maneuvering and disarming the SJ should be sufficent. Remember that the Shivans are colony-minded. Do what is best for everyone, even at the cost of yourself. They would probably do anything to win, if it was for a goal.

Why are you assuming that the shivans are morons? We have 0 proof that shivans are of this 'colony mind'. Whereas my expanation using cannocal evidense shows that the sathanas is fully capable of jumping out and returning at optimal firing range, just as the orion would seem to be able to.




And heres something else to chew on;

If the orion is behind the sathanas in the blindspot, and the sathanas launches bomers (cause omg the bay is RIGHT THERE) you now have hundreds of bombers at point blank range. Compare that to the orions fighter compliment and try to take out all that firepower.



"Just disable the sathanas."

2 flaws with that;

one, it doesnt stop it from jumping out.

two, if you're suggesting this you obviosuly have never tried. See you in an hour if you do