[karajorma]

I'm not.
But the Orion doesn't have any such balant weakneses... lack of fighterdefence is one, but it would take time for tha Sathana to capitalize on it. It takes time to lauch fighters nad for those same fighters to gain space superiority over the Orions fightercover.

It does have a blatant weakness. It's lack of speed. Yet when I exploited its lack of speed you launched into a page long rant about it not being appropriate for the Sathanas to do that.

Who? Name one person who has tested the mission at 1x and had the Orion win.

Lt.GeneralMobius

Take a look at his posting immeditately following that one. I'll leave it for him to confirm but it appears as though he ran the test using time compression.

That depends.. Do you want to drag in weapons targeting into the debate or not?

The LRed issue is trivial. I don't need it to prove that a sathanas can't be beaten easily. Do as you please just stick to whichever side you come down on the side of.

You've yet to prove that a Sathanas can be beaten except for the ridiculous mission you posted earlier. You're yet to prove that the Sathanas can't simply rotate on the spot and blow it up. You're yet to prove that the Orion can get into that position without getting blown up.

You've yet to prove that it can't

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You've admitted yourself that the situation required is exceptional so there is no doubt as to who is making the extraordinary claim. Therefore the onus is on you to prove yourself right. Not on me to prove you wrong.
Furthermore I'm the only person (with the possible exception of Mobius who's mission is irrelevent to this discussion) who has provided an objective mission so far. Why should it continue to be my responsibility to prove you wrong when all you've contributed thus far is a mission that proves nothing beyond the fact that you appear to have no knowledge of how to script a capship battle fairly?

The same goes for your claims that the subsystems were being targetted or any of your other assertions.

Do the work rather than claiming I need to. I've already done my share.

[TrashMan]

I'm not.
But the Orion doesn't have any such balant weakneses... lack of fighterdefence is one, but it would take time for tha Sathana to capitalize on it. It takes time to lauch fighters nad for those same fighters to gain space superiority over the Orions fightercover.

It does have a blatant weakness. It's lack of speed. Yet when I exploited its lack of speed you launched into a page long rant about it not being appropriate for the Sathanas to do that.

If you had a ship that far more powerfull than your opponents, would you fly around for ten minutes and then attack (getting inevitably damaged in the process) or would you try to turn and hit it immediately (even tough it may end up unsucesfully)?
Shivans are agressive. What do you think they would do sooner?

You've yet to prove that it can't

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You've admitted yourself that the situation required is exceptional so there is no doubt as to who is making the extraordinary claim. Therefore the onus is on you to prove yourself right. Not on me to prove you wrong.
Furthermore I'm the only person (with the possible exception of Mobius who's mission is irrelevent to this discussion) who has provided an objective mission so far. Why should it continue to be my responsibility to prove you wrong when all you've contributed thus far is a mission that proves nothing beyond the fact that you appear to have no knowledge of how to script a capship battle fairly?

The same goes for your claims that the subsystems were being targetted or any of your other assertions.

Do the work rather than claiming I need to. I've already done my share.

Since when do I *HAVE* to prove anything to you more than you have to me?
Specific circumstances don't automaticly make a claim exceptional... And even if it was it doesn't automaticly mean that I have to prove it right any more than you have to prove it wrong.

And hte mission works. In both retail and SCP. With normal tables. At 1x.

Now if you excuse me, I got a test to write....

[karajorma]

Hang on a sec. This discrepency between what you're getting and what I'm getting is starting to worry me. Any differences caused by what difficulty level we're running on should not be capable of causing such a large difference between the outcomes on two different PCs.

Are you telling me that you have run the exact same mission you posted (LeBigTest.fs2) on both retail and FS2_Open and in both cases the sathanas lost?

[CreamyB|ood]

Hey there.  I’m kind of with Karajorma on this.  I realize I’m a newbie as I only ever played Freespace 2 ‘pure’ for the first time about two years ago, then just played the original campaign again a couple of weeks ago on SCP.  I’m three quarters through ‘Derelict’ right now (and am writing a walkthrough too, for other noobs) and although I don’t know my ass from a Keyser or a Trebuchet I don’t think that an Orion can take out one of those big whatamacallits.

But, first to address the original thread.  It inspired me to load up FRED and go through enough of the tutorial to get a Colossus and ‘five’ Orions attacking it.  No matter what I did, they all got slaughtered.  Actually I thought it was so much fun that I spent most of yesterday trying different things; side by side, space out, surrounded with the Colossus encircled (and using six Orions), but I just couldn’t get it close to an even battle.

First I was running waypoints and then just gave up and pretended the Indians had the chuckwagon circled and they still got slaughtered.  Of course, I don’t know the difference between the different beam weapons or where they’re located (what is LRed?) so I would stagger the relative heights and distances of the Orions but they still got slaughtered.


(In the mean time I made a very balanced battle between the original tutorial ships off in the distance, the Potomep against the Munin and Hugin plus an extra cruiser, all on waypoints.  Was nice to see (after all the ColvsOrion battles) that the corvette actually pulled it off once in awhile, otherwise there was only one badly damaged cruiser left).

I realize that this doesn't mean a thing and this has all been talked about before a million times  and most of you gurus have probably nuked Collosuses  (not my callusness) a million times with three Hercs and a frigate before.

Anyways, as to the Sath vs Orion thing, I downloaded Karajorma’s version and tried it many times.  No contest, with or without time compression, I never saw the Orion come close to winning.   I would’ve downloaded Trashmans version but it doesn’t exist anymore as of September 17/2006.  But since he admits to altering tables (I’ve been using FRED for ONE day, I know what that means) on his own system, then I’m not sure what the ‘demonstration’ is as I haven’t seen it as it doesn’t exist anymore.

The onus is on Trashman to provide the proof.  If you come to me saying that you have a ‘perpetual motion machine’ that has been debunked by scientists for years and goes against all laws of physics and even common sense, and then you say ‘prove that I *don't* have a perpetual motion machine', what do you think we're going to do?  Ignore you.  The burden of proof is upon you to back up these fantastical claims.

Anyways, thanks for getting me interested in FRED.  I forgot about my current campaign for a day.  Whatever you’re differences are on this ‘issue’, it’s a fun game, glad you’re all around to discuss it.

And that my fellow wingnuts, is my first post.

[Hippo]

Welcome, please be prepared to be beamed and spammed and given a longwinded speech by someone annoying who forum whores.



And I agree with you.


And the LRed is the single beam canon on the read of the ship.

[CreamyB|ood]

Actually I buried my first post so far down into such a tired, meaningless thread that I'm hoping to be one of the first to avoid that big ugly green graphic thing they use to welcome newcomers here.  And the accompanying blurb.  Seen it many times the last couple of weeks digging for information that's very old and out of date.  Thanks for agreeing with me.

[Hippo]

It used to actually be of some signifigance a few years ago because there was a standardization, now its 'omg i can be funny and add my own parts to make it bettererererererererrrrr1!!!11!!!111'.

And siding with kara is typically the right answer to begin with, you'll do well here

[CreamyB|ood]

I not be sidin' with anyone yer ol' scallywag.  I just be usin' the ol' wizardery, err, scientific approach to decidin' on what in the universe you can believe, an' that what yer cannot.  If yer get me drift.

And someone has been playing pirates a little too much, mee thinks.

[Flipside]

It's the word filter, it'll all be back to normal by tomorrow (right guys? huh? huh?)

[NGTM-1R]

Good ol' IHTFPFDSFST time.

[Col. Fishguts]

It used to actually be of some signifigance a few years ago because there was a standardization, now its 'omg i can be funny and add my own parts to make it bettererererererererrrrr1!!!11!!!111'.

Quoted for effin' truth.

As for the argument ... I would pay good money to see a Kara vs Trashman multipayer duel with an Orion vs a Sath, granted that they use teamspeak for great hilarity.

[Mobius]

I proposed this too....
karajorma takes control of the Sath

[Colonol Dekker]

We need Aldo flying something as a referee, maybe a poseidon or Elyssiium ?

[Mobius]

I could fly the Terra...nice referee....

Of course,ehm,I'm the PRESIDENT of karajorma's Fan Club=it doesn't mean that he is advanced in the battle....or not?

[karajorma]

The thing with a one on one battle is that I'd win every time. The only objection Trashman can raise to my tactic of simply flying away for 10 minutes is that if the Sathanas did lose an engine or two it would begin to slow its top speed down.

The game however does not reflect this fact so it's pretty impractical for that point. What it might resolve is whether the Sathanas could simply revolve on the spot and simply blow the Orion away.

[BS403]

come on several times trashman has stated that he only trying to prove it is possible for the orion to win. and every time you seem to ignore him. 
oh yeah I played you mission 1x time compression and guess what the orion won.
3 times out of 5
using unmodified tables

[NGTM-1R]

come on several times trashman has stated that he only trying to prove it is possible for the orion to win. and every time you seem to ignore him. 
oh yeah I played you mission 1x time compression and guess what the orion won.
3 times out of 5
using unmodified tables

Simply put: that's not possible.

[karajorma]

come on several times trashman has stated that he only trying to prove it is possible for the orion to win. and every time you seem to ignore him.

I haven't ignored him. I've even acknowledged that point. Read back a few posts and you'll see. Put simply I believe the Orion can win. But the circumstances have to be exceptional. What I take issue to though is Trashman saying that the Orion can win in the circumstances he has set his mission up to use. Because he has scripted the mission in a manner that is unfair to the Sathanas.

1) The Orion starts in the optimal firing position with both ships at 100% hull. This would never happen. The Orion must somehow get to that position. Trashman has pretty much ignored my exceptions to that fact waving them away with some nonsense about the Sathanas being distracted or something.
2) The Sathanas has been given orders that do not allow it to make optimal use of its guns. The AI-chase SEXP tells the AI to close with an enemy ship and then turn to give it a broadside. The Sathanas has no broadside. It is designed around the concept of a frontal attack. This means that in Trashman's mission the Sathanas is manouvering to present its weakest armorment to the Orion.

In other words Trashman's mission proves nothing. I could script a mission in which a fenris kills the Colossus if I was similarly unfair.

oh yeah I played you mission 1x time compression and guess what the orion won.
3 times out of 5
using unmodified table.

So the sathanas won twice? Even though Trashman made a mission that was hugely unfair to the Sathanas it still didn't lose every time. So how much worse do you think the Orion would do in a mission that was fair to both sides? 

[TrashMan]

I really don't get it why is this continuing?

Havn't I stated from the begining that the Orion is vastly inferioir to the Sathanas and can only win in an exceptional/lucky circumstance (but it still can win)?

[karajorma]

Yep. The matter was ended as far as I was concerned till BS403 decided to stir it all up again.

The only matter I still care about is why you were getting different results to me (and only then if it indicates an SCP bug). But since you probably ran a different mission from the one you supplied me with on retail it pretty much explains everything.