[Mefustae]

We can basically take it as two ways, either the opening cutscene is canon, or it's not.  If it is, then ground combat did occur, because of several reasons.

Quite a leap of faith there. You're talking out your arse.

Conclusion:  Logically speaking, if the cutscenes is indeed canon, then ground combat did, in fact, occur.  There is no other logical explanation for what we see in the cutscene.  However, it is possible that the cutscene is not canon, thus ground combat did not occur.

It is not concrete proof of ground combat. There is in fact no evidence whatsoever that they were engaging the Shivans. If you examine the scene, there is wreckage in the background that could be solid structures; meaning they were killed during an evacuation, or it could simply be a transport that broke up shortly before impact; spewing the dead troopers across the sand. They could be remnants of a Vasudan push years before, or perhaps rescue team sent years later killed by environmental conditions. It could be a lot of things.

Not likely, judging from the context of the scene.

Granted, context matters. However, there is still no evidence whatsoever that they were engaging Shivans beyond 'there are Shivans earlier in the cutscene'.

There are infinitely more possibilities for how those troopers died, and simply assuming that they were killed by Shivans when canon indirectly contradicts it is folly.

[aldo_14]

Indeed! In-game chatter between Command and the surviving Iceni crew indicates a moderate to high number of Shivan casualties. While Hallfight indicates that Shivans are formidable warriors, the skirmish aboard the Iceni appears to have led to equal losses on both sides, indicating that either the human crew were quite prepared for the scuffle [doubtful given that it was initially a peaceful encounter], or something was different in this instance that put the Shivans at a disadvantage. The only major difference between Hallfight and the Iceni is the presence of gravity.

The Shivans are obviously at a disadvantage when faced with a 0> gravity environment, and thus why the avoid conflicts on planets or other ships like the plague. In short, they avoid planetary combat for the same reason we avoid combat floating around in zero-g.

32 years, the Shivans boarding (rather than being boarded), both sides expressing peaceful intentions (honestly or otherwise), previous GTVA knowledge of Shivans (i.e. allowing automated defenses, improved weaponry), several thousand Terrans onboard the ship (rather than several marines), the possibility of GTVA-developed co-ordinated defense strategies implemented by the crew of the Iceni, etc all spring to mind as differences.  Additionally, the concept of Shivan 'moderate' casualties is rather relative, and AFAIK the only reference is actually along the lines of 'there are some Shivan bodies among the dead' rather than any quantifier.  Additionally, the ship is - IIRC - referred to as a slaughterhouse, which surely implies Shivan advantage.

[Mefustae]

Good point- er, points. Well, I can't be stuffed arguing a point at midnight, so I concede; there is no canonical evidence that Shivans are hindered at all by the presence of gravity.

Still, I maintain that Shivans landing on Terran or Vasudan planets is complete bullshot.

[Freespace Freak]

Good point- er, points. Well, I can't be stuffed arguing a point at midnight, so I concede; there is no canonical evidence that Shivans are hindered at all by the presence of gravity.

Still, I maintain that Shivans landing on Terran or Vasudan planets is complete bullshot.

I agree, and I may add that I personally think that most of the opening cutscene is crap.  There were no ground battles, despite what the cutscene suggests.  To try to work around the cutscene to say they were anything other than combat troops doing anything other than combat, and coming up with all these deranged explanations to prove so is completely bull.  It makes a good intro, but it doesn't tie into the history of FS at all.  Didn't somebody say the cutscene was made by an independent company?  My personal take is that what we see in the opening FS2 intro simply did not happen.

[Freespace Freak]

If you examine the scene, there is wreckage in the background that could be solid structures; meaning they were killed during an evacuation, or it could simply be a transport that broke up shortly before impact; spewing the dead troopers across the sand.

If that was true, then the bodies would not be intact.  The same goes for orbital bombardment.

They could be remnants of a Vasudan push years before, or perhaps rescue team sent years later killed by environmental conditions. It could be a lot of things.

There are infinitely more possibilities for how those troopers died, and simply assuming that they were killed by Shivans when canon indirectly contradicts it is folly.

The problem with your arguments is that you're assuming that the people who made the cutscene were following, or indeed even cared about the canon story.  They probably just used "what looked cool."  My point is that the original intent of the cutscene was to show the devestation of the Great War, not the T-V War.  Everything in there implies the death and destruction at the hands of the Shivans, not of anything else. 

Simply put, the cutscene was made to look cool, but I don't think they were concerned about preserving canon when they made it.  Intentionally or not, they broke with canon, and rolled with it, because they wanted to show the devastation caused by the Shivans, so having all those dead soldiers did the job.  Despite the fact that it implies ground combat occurred between the Shivans and Humans, it served its purpose.  The break with canon did not concern them.

You see, you have to seperate two things, what's canon, and what was the intent of the creators of that scene.  Were they concerned with preserving canon?  Probably not.

[aldo_14]

Good point- er, points. Well, I can't be stuffed arguing a point at midnight, so I concede; there is no canonical evidence that Shivans are hindered at all by the presence of gravity.

Still, I maintain that Shivans landing on Terran or Vasudan planets is complete bullshot.

Absolutely; it's totally unnecessary for them and a waste of time and resources.

[Freespace Freak]

Good point- er, points. Well, I can't be stuffed arguing a point at midnight, so I concede; there is no canonical evidence that Shivans are hindered at all by the presence of gravity.

Still, I maintain that Shivans landing on Terran or Vasudan planets is complete bullshot.

Absolutely; it's totally unnecessary for them and a waste of time and resources.

It's a dangerous thing to rely on canon, because writers can and do regularly ignore their own canon when they create new stories.

[aldo_14]

Good point- er, points. Well, I can't be stuffed arguing a point at midnight, so I concede; there is no canonical evidence that Shivans are hindered at all by the presence of gravity.

Still, I maintain that Shivans landing on Terran or Vasudan planets is complete bullshot.

Absolutely; it's totally unnecessary for them and a waste of time and resources.

It's a dangerous thing to rely on canon, because writers can and do regularly ignore their own canon when they create new stories.

what would you rather do, just randomly make **** up?

[Freespace Freak]

Haha!  I was waiting for someone to say something.  The problem I see with a lot of fan sites, is that they always get befuddled with contradictions in canon.  As I just said, I think the people who made the intro cutscene ignored, intentionally or not, the canon.  But rolled with it because it looked cool.  That's it.

My only point was that those who made the cutscene wanted to show the remains of a ground battle because they want the viewer to visualize the human impact of the devastation wrought by the Shivans.  The fact that the whole scene is contrary to canon doesn't matter, but people are like "NO! THAT CAN'T BE WHAT IT IS!  OMF GOD N00B, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CONTRADICTED CANON!!!11ONE"  Because they can't fathom the fact that the creators really don't give two ****s about their own canon (that the fans are so attatched to) when it comes right down to it.

[aldo_14]

My only point was that those who made the cutscene wanted to show the remains of a ground battle

That's a rather gigantic assumption.  What makes you think they weren't just wanting to show lots of dead bodies?

[Colonol Dekker]

To be blunt, The cutscene was made by a third party, so we cant really take it as gospel anyway, now can we......

[Freespace Freak]

If they wanted to show lots of dead bodies, why not have civilians and navy pilots and navy officers interlaced among the dead marines?  Why is it only dead marines?  Likely, because they are dead Marines who died in the manner that you'd expect a bunch of Marines to die.  In direct combat.

What I'm trying to say is don't try to fit the cutscene around canon, because it doesn't.  Just acknowlege that it contradicts canon, and you can either say it's an alternative canon or (as I believe) is not a part of canon.  I mean you have the Hades and all kinds of other contradictions, so maybe its better to say it's not part of canon.  Or you can say it represents another side of the story that the canon line doesn't show.  Anyway as Dekker said, we cant really take it as Gospel anyway.  I know I don't.

Personally, I don't think ground combat ever occurred, but I understand what I think the creators of the cutscene were trying to convey, that is the human loss due to the Shivans.  I think that it was meant to represent a ground battle (that didn't happen according to canon).  Its purpose was to help us visualize the human loss that a bug hunk of floating debris can't.  and the fact that it's all dead combat troops emphasizes the power and the threat that the Shivans represent.

However, since my view really isn't in line with the topic, I'll close and say that I think that the Shivans are capable of fighting in 1G evironments, as the Iceni battle shows.  "Some Shivans are amongst the dead" means that some of them were killed, but in the Hallfight cutscene the attack squad was able to kill at least one Shivan, so that doesn't surprise us.  But when the Lieutenant said that it was a slaughterhouse in there implies that it was a slaughter of humans, not Shivans.  This is also evidenced by his nervousness.  If they were able to fend off the Shivans handily, he wouldn't be quite as anxious to get off the ship.

[Colonol Dekker]

Yes death in honorable COMBAR !!!!!!!!




It does make sense now you mention it..........

[Freespace Freak]

Thanks for pointing out my typos!       

[karajorma]

If they wanted to show lots of dead bodies, why not have civilians and navy pilots and navy officers interlaced among the dead marines?  Why is it only dead marines?

Because they already had the models for Freespace marines perhaps? Never attribute to design what can be attributed to laziness. It will bite you on the arse every time.

[bfobar]

Why do the bodies in the FS2 cutscene have to be from a shivan ground attack? alternate theories:

1.) GTI rebellion, those corpses are from a massive infantry battle over a GTI compound/mine/base/something on a planet abandoned after the great war and the losing side didn't get picked up. Don't ask don't tell.

2.) Vasudan battle: Terrans and vasudans were engaged on ground ops here but the shivans showed up, so the survivors got recalled before they could bury their dead, and were forgotten about as the shivans swept the system.

3. Lord of the Flies Scenario: Shivans ravaged the system, leaving a base cut off for months. No resources, no contact, and sense of impending doom leads to different factions of ground troups forming tribes and killing eachother off over old cans of cheese whiz and spam.

Anyway, I imaging that FS2 ground combat uses air superiority for domination and bombardment, and then uses perfected close quarter urban combat infantry. Heavy mechanized units are probably obsoleted by handheld banshee lasers and orbital troop drops and fighter cover. Step 1 is blockade the planet, step 2 is to pound all facilities from orbit, and step 3 is to send in the infantry to root out the straglers, set up check points, and occupy the cities.

[Mars]

Why did they have to have died in ground combat? I see no evidence of this, as far as I'm concerned they died when, or shortly after, their ship crashed (or maybe fell out of the wreckage as it was still falling), and I see no evidence against this.

[NGTM-1R]

Actually, considering the timeframe of the movie in which you see the base, GTI sounds likely.

You can't pick and choose your canon, folks...particularly in regards to actual game content. Stuff the developers say, things that were cut from the game, those can be treated as a lesser form, but anything that was actually in the game is as canon as it gets.

[Blue Lion]

Are there any Shivan bodies among the dead in that shot? It's kinda hard to see.

[Blue Haired Maniac]

Are there any Shivan bodies among the dead in that shot? It's kinda hard to see.

As far as I can tell...no.