[Mars]

Seriously, is there any evidence that ground combat occured? The exoskeletons seem intact, which they wouldn't be after combat with the Shivans

[Mefustae]

Seriously, is there any evidence that ground combat occured? The exoskeletons seem intact, which they wouldn't be after combat with the Shivans

None whatsoever, just people jumping to conclusions.

[Blue Lion]

The only evidence is the dead bodies in combat gear.

[Blue Haired Maniac]

Seriously, is there any evidence that ground combat occured? The exoskeletons seem intact, which they wouldn't be after combat with the Shivans

The only evidence that we have of ground combat are...

1) The opening cut scene of FS2.
2) The debriefing after "Surrender, Belisarius" which states that 600,000 ground troops are going to retake the planet.

But as far as Shivans taking part in ground combat, there is zero evidence. Considering their nature, it makes absolutely zero sense for the Shivans to even conquer planets. They could've conquered Vasuda Prime, instead, they razed it. They could've conquered planets on their way to Sol, but they didn't. As far as we can tell, the Shivans are a zero gravity loving species who are at home in the vacuum of space.

[Mars]

The only evidence that we have of ground combat are...

1) The opening cut scene of FS2.
2) The debriefing after "Surrender, Belisarius" which states that 600,000 ground troops are going to retake the planet.

But as far as Shivans taking part in ground combat, there is zero evidence. Considering their nature, it makes absolutely zero sense for the Shivans to even conquer planets. They could've conquered Vasuda Prime, instead, they razed it. They could've conquered planets on their way to Sol, but they didn't. As far as we can tell, the Shivans are a zero gravity loving species who are at home in the vacuum of space.

You miss my point, I was saying "Is there any evidence of ground combat in the opening cutscene?"

[Dark Hunter]

What a lot of people are missing here is that the Shivans are not the only enemy the GTVA has. The Hammer of Light, the Neo-Terran Front, the GTI Rebellion, random groups that pop up on minor planets. People are only thinking of fighting the Shivans on the ground.

I'm sure that plenty of fighting against the Vasudans was on the ground, before we allied ourselves with them. The Neo-Terran Front had to be fought on some ground, given the afore-quoted Bellisarius briefing. I'd wager that the Hammer of Light had bases of operations on Deneb, Vasuda, or Sirius, that needed to be cleaned out. There's plenty of ground combat in FS, just none of it is ever witnessed due to the fact that the game's name is Freespace, and therefore we only see the high-flying, beam-shooting side of it.

[Colonol Dekker]

We only see the planets surface after The colossus is complete dont forget that, There could have been all sorts of problems, but this is diversive conjecture, At the end of the day it should be dead Zods not Humes..........

[aldo_14]

If they wanted to show lots of dead bodies, why not have civilians and navy pilots and navy officers interlaced among the dead marines?  Why is it only dead marines?  Likely, because they are dead Marines who died in the manner that you'd expect a bunch of Marines to die.  In direct combat.

GTVA ships carry marines, and probably in large numbers.  Just look at them standing around in the mainhall, guarding every door.  And there's no reason why said marines wouldn't, y'know, be housed together within the ship superstructure or - in a crashing ship - be assembled together for evacuation.  (moreso, there's no reason to assume their bodies were thrown clear - the ships outerstructure could have simply corroded in the atmosphere of the planet)

Moreso, the image of skeletons encased in body armour is more indicative of military death (not to mention that it's not clear the Shivans killed civvies on the ground other than in Vasuda) than what in would be indistinct and tattered rags, not to mention more visually effective and that it'd be a lot more difficult for the cutscene animators/modellers to create a bunch of new 'tattered' models. 

As a thought regarding ground combat - how many weapons do you see lying next to them?  Or tanks or similar support vehicles?

[Colonol Dekker]

This opens up a new line of converation, ie in FS land, obviously they would have tanks, but would they be as abundant seeing as how the GTA at the time used to bomb planets with (i forget) Harbingers or Tsunamii, They could use some fighters to blap ground support vehicles too.But yeah i've wondered about that, it all harks back to wether the third party animators could be arsed to make come up with new non-requirement models......

[aldo_14]

This opens up a new line of converation, ie in FS land, obviously they would have tanks, but would they be as abundant seeing as how the GTA at the time used to bomb planets with (i forget) Harbingers or Tsunamii, They could use some fighters to blap ground support vehicles too.But yeah i've wondered about that, it all harks back to wether the third party animators could be arsed to make come up with new non-requirement models......

That's assuming the ground forces didn't have potent air-defense weapons or technology, of course.  Perhaps in the form of energy shielding, at least in the post-FS2 world.

[Colonol Dekker]

In hallfight, The bird thats buys the farm, "FIRE !!" shoots the shivan with a man portable rocket IIRC, so a reasonable assumption would be that can get MANPADS too, Although the yield would have to be drropped or range  increased.....

[aldo_14]

In hallfight, The bird thats buys the farm, "FIRE !!" shoots the shivan with a man portable rocket IIRC, so a reasonable assumption would be that can get MANPADS too, Although the yield would have to be drropped or range  increased.....

Don't actually know what she uses, natch, because the Shivan explodes.  there was a big debate over whether a grenade, etc, was used a while back with no consensus reached.

[Colonol Dekker]

In the spirit of Ground Combat i reckon it was  a mini missile with a shape charge, A grenade would have taken the squad out.
 

[Dysko]

Seriously, is there any evidence that ground combat occured? The exoskeletons seem intact, which they wouldn't be after combat with the Shivans

This is a good point. Maybe the soldiers were evacuating the planet, the transport for some reason didn't depart (mechanical failure, was destroyed by Shivan ships before entering the atmosphere etc.) and the soldiers may have been killed by famine.

[Freespace Freak]

Seriously, the only people who would look at that cutscene and assume it couldn't have been the site of a battlefield are you guys, extreme fans and well versed canon people.  People who are unfamiliar to the Freespace universe would have come to the conclusion that all those Marines died in combat somehow.  And that's the point.  That cutscene is so contradictory to canon precisely because the creators don't care about canon.  The intended audience is not to attract people who are familiar to the FS universe, but to attract people who are not.  It's intended to simultaneously visually demonstrate how devastating the Great War was in terms of human lives, and the terrible power of the Shivans to those who are unfamiliar.  Just showing hulking space debris would not convey that image.

Does that mean ground combat actually did occur?  No.  The problem you guys are having is that you're trying to fit the cutscene around your concept of canon. 

Now, I dare anyone to prove this next statement wrong:  the people who made the cutscene did not give a sh*t about the official canon, and Volition rolled with it because they also don't really care about their own canon, when it comes right down to it.

Don't try to fit things like that cutscene around canon, it's fruitless and pointless.  You can't try anyway.  Why would one image, the marines for example, conform to canon when the crashed Hades clearly doesn't.  Why would any of that entire cutscene conform to canon at all?  It doesn't.  Acknowledge its purpose, which is not to add anything to canon, or even to conform to canon, but to visually convey a concept.

[Colonol Dekker]

Cutscenes are there to be enjoyed as vibrant luxurious imagery, True and i agree, But .....


As true fans it is our right,... NAY! our duty to pick holes in it at every oppertunity

[Freespace Freak]

I don't see what holes you have to pick.  The whole thing is like a giant black hole in canon to begin with.   

[aldo_14]

Seriously, the only people who would look at that cutscene and assume it couldn't have been the site of a battlefield are you guys, extreme fans and well versed canon people.  People who are unfamiliar to the Freespace universe would have come to the conclusion that all those Marines died in combat somehow. 

bollocks.  I first saw that cutscene as - shockingly - never having played an FS game before and interpreted no such thing.  It's a site of many dead people; nothing more, nothing less - you're the one reading in some vast story of ground warfare from it.

[Freespace Freak]

Seriously, the only people who would look at that cutscene and assume it couldn't have been the site of a battlefield are you guys, extreme fans and well versed canon people.  People who are unfamiliar to the Freespace universe would have come to the conclusion that all those Marines died in combat somehow. 

bollocks.  I first saw that cutscene as - shockingly - never having played an FS game before and interpreted no such thing.  It's a site of many dead people; nothing more, nothing less - you're the one reading in some vast story of ground warfare from it.

Actually, I'm not.  You must be missing my point.  You're reading into the cutscene by trying to portray some far-fetched story of some marines falling from some hole from a crashing ship, or dying from some other thing.  What I'm trying to say is that I think the whole cutscene was probably made to convey an image.  But I can say with certainty that it wasn't made to conform to or perpetuate canon.  The people who made it didn't care about canon, so it's pointless to try to conform the cutscene to canon or to try to extract some other form of canonical idea from it.

[Mefustae]

Actually, I'm not.  You're must be missing my point.  You're reading into the cutscene by trying to portray some far-fetched story of some marines falling from some hole from a crashing ship, or dying from some other thing.  What I'm trying to say is that I think the whole cutscene was probably made to convey an image.  But I can say with certainty that it wasn't made to conform to or perpetuate canon.  The people who made it didn't care about canon, so it's pointless to try to conform the cutscene to canon or to try to extract some other form of canonical idea from it.

Are you still arguing that ground warfare occured or what? You're argument is all over the whole damn place.