[NGTM-1R]

And you're misunderstanding one thing.  I'm not trying to recreate canon.  Again, for the record.  I PERSONALLY DON'T BELIEVE A GROUND BATTLE EVER TOOK PLACE ACCORDING TO CANON, but that cutscene is a circumvension of canon, if you will.  The conclusions I have about the writer's intention with that cutscene are seperate from what I think really happened according to canon.  Now, please, if you will, my good Taristin, continue.

But it's ingame. It is therefore as friggin' canonical as anything gets. Your point is, regardless of what the hell you think took place, invalid. You can't pick and choose your canon. It's all or nothing. If you think that represents a ground battle then you have to fit it into your canon. You can't just go "bah, it's a cutscene, who cares?" That's not the way canonicity works.

FOR THE LAST FRIGGIN' TIME: RETCON.

[Flipside]

I think the point that is being made here is that if Freespace Freak wants to make a cutscene or whatever about a ground battle, there is no problem with that, but that is by no means saying that it would be canon simply because it is a 'viable' explanation. After all, the ShivanBBQ or Shrikes' theory is a 'viable' theory, even if a silly one, it still takes all visible factors into account.

The thing is, I have a feeling you are all trying to say the same thing, but all saying it different.

I don't want to have to lock this thread because it turns into a shouting match, so everyone calm down a little

[Charismatic]

Just poping in. My opinion:
The ground troops, were not they those exact 600,000 troops mentioned in one of the first briefings? They fought the NTF for Deneb right? I never thought they were the bodies of those who fell out of a destroyer or cap ship. They are in battle gear, normal officers and crew, would they wear those infa red scopes around the deck and halls? I'd think not.

Off topic: Zman i like the last part of your sig. Il join in.

[Goober5000]

(not to mention that it's not clear the Shivans killed civvies on the ground other than in Vasuda)

The Lucifer is the greatest threat to the survival of the GTA, the PVN, and both the Terran and Vasudan species.  It wields three massive Flux Cannons which can destroy one of our capital ships in a few hits.  These same cannons have been seen bombarding colonized worlds.

Note "worlds", plural.

How many of you have tried to explain why there is a Hades class superdestroyer crashed on the planet? Probably no one.

We have.

[BS403]

Assuming that construction of the Hades didn't begin before the start of the Great War. It's been a long time since I played Silent Threat but as far as I remember it never says when construction started. Hell for all we know the rogue parts of GTI could have had contact with the Shivans way before the start of the Great War. And that's assuming that the Shivan parts of the design weren't retro-fitted.
 

it says the hades is an attempt to reconstruct the lucifer

[Prophet]

I think it is entirely possible that the the skeletons are in there because the were simply left there. I'm not going to why they died, but I think it was battle (or they were preparing for battle) because they were armed and in battle gear. But about the bodies. It is reasonable to assume that the planet is inhabited. Perhaps the battle was so brutal or important or otherwise memorable, that they decided to let the brave souls to rest where they died. Why not?

Remember how the intro narrator talked about the lost generation? Perhaps many of the soldiers had no family left? Perhaps the were left there to finally rest away from the GTVA. Perhaps the battlefield was left there as a scar, to remind us of the horrors past. Just like the derelict in the orbit.


And a final note. Sorry if these thoughts were presented earlier. I just glanced over the 5 (!) pages of the topic.

[Ghostavo]

You assume we think they died by some strange accident

You're missing FF's point. He isn't saying that. He's saying that explaining away the marines as being the crew of the Hades is similarly ridiculous to trying to explain who could possibly have made the size 500 shoes that Godzilla wore when you saw him tap dance down your road yesterday. First you must explain where Godzilla came from and why he was tap dancing The shoes are a minor detail.

Explaining the marines away as being the crew of the Hades doesn't get you around the point that the Hades doesn't make any bloody sense in the first place!

But the problem is that not explaining something on the basis that another situation is not explained is much more ridiculous. It's like someone invalidating everything we know about the shivans by simply saying "We don't know how they blew up Capella nor why!". We know the shivans blew Capella, Godzilla tapdanced ( ) and that the Hades was there, it's not like we're adding stuff into the equation. I have no problem with someone believing in canon diferently (unless these things involve stuff like 99 colossi, you know the drill), but when someone starts saying that a seemingly plausible explanation which you believe cannot be true by means of a strawman, it is a bit irritating.

In the attempt to try to explain everything, you must start somewhere. You go bit by bit and if someone here says they actually figured out all they know about canon in one go, I'd say they are either lying or worked for V or should join the SCP.

PS.
Sorry about this late post but this thread's growth is intimidating.

[Colonol Dekker]

Its a safe assumption the ground troops were dead for a while. Maybe they were from the T-V war era.............

I'd wager, given the Hades in the background and that only human troops are present, and the state of body decay (only skeletons, jsut as that pilot that died fighting the Lucifer) that those bodies are from the GTI rebellion period.
Probably humans fighting humans.

However, the scale of destruction of the sorrounding structures confuses me.
Either the shivans bombed Deneb (before, during or after the human fought) or one of hte human sides decided it's easier to nuke the enemy than take it in ground combat (high losses)...

What structures?

Vasudan's fighting hand-to-hand combat. THAT I've gotta see...

Its pretty much grabbing a bloke by the face, looking at him, then chucking him into the ground.

[aldo_14]

Okay, now let's watch the cutscene anew.  Again, pretend you never even heard of the FS universe. 

Why does no-one actually read my posts?  It's not like I don't try to be clear......

I had never heard of the FS universe when I first saw that cutscene; and I drew no such conclusion of ground combat as you - arrogantly - assume I would make.  Strangely, I've stated exactly that before, exactly my impressions as a first time viewed, and you ignored that statement flat-out.

You think I was given an injection of FS to the brain before first playing the game? Tres bizarre.

[Freespace Freak]

I heard what you said, and I said it's actually kind of a strange view.  If you were to go to Iraq, and see a bunch of dead soldiers lying on the ground, you probably would not say "Hmmm, the must have fell out of a transport plane.  How clumsy."  No, you'd probably say "OMG!  What a terrible battle that must have taken place here!"  Granted, you know it's Iraq and know ground battles took place there.  What if you didn't know you were in Iraq?  Would you still think they fell out of a plane?  No, you'd assume they died from battle.  The problem with your idea, is that it's overly complex, and not in line with the theme of the piece.  You're assuming the creators had some comlex backstory unrelated behind the dead soldiers, completely unrelated to everything else that's going on with the piece.  To be quite honest, that is an extremely strange viewpoint, but then again, us nerds aren't known for thinking normal.  Most likely, the people who created it, who have degrees in this stuff and are always are thinking with themes, are not going to put something in their piece that has some complex backstory unrelated to the events happening in the piece.  Most likely they were thinking along simple lines, and that is:  humanity getting its butt kicked by ugly alien bad dudes, and everything you see is the aftermath of that conflict.  Even the crashed Hades, which we all know doesn't belong there, those guys must have put in there to conceptually show some wreckage from the same battle we saw moments before.  You see, it's all very simple, and very straightforward.  The simplest answer is always the most likely one.

[aldo_14]

See; I thought i had been very clear, but no.  I have to reiterate again.

 My initial reaction as a new player was simply 'lots of dead bodies relating to the huge space battle seen previously' - not inventing some hypothetical ground conflict not even hinted at in the cutscene to justify them (particularly in dint that the cutscene clearly shows ship wreckage on the planet as part of the battle aftermath, creating a logical join between that wreckage and those bodies). 

I have merely provided some examples as to why your singular interpretation cannot be said to be the only interpretation as a background to indicate why your supposition is wrong.

Amazingly, I'd add, you've actually discounted the simplest explanation - the bodies are battle casualties from the battle we just witnessed and are seeing the wreckage of.  If those same bodies were floating in space, would it thus mean there was infantry space combat?

[Mefustae]

If those same bodies were floating in space, would it thus mean there was infantry space combat?

That'd be so cool.

[aldo_14]

If those same bodies were floating in space, would it thus mean there was infantry space combat?

That'd be so cool.

I made a spacesuit-man for it a while back, but no-one ever used it

[Colonol Dekker]

I made one with a rifle Moonraker style, For Shadowolf IH.
He never got round to finishing it, conversion and subs etc. I might dig it out, convert it and use SEXP tricks to make a Mission where............"GASP" you leave your fighter..................

[karajorma]

I made a spacesuit-man for it a while back, but no-one ever used it

You built a Exo-ship marine for use in boarding manouvers outside a ship etc. Had you built a standard marine sucked out into space I'd definitely have used it

[aldo_14]

I made a spacesuit-man for it a while back, but no-one ever used it

You built a Exo-ship marine for use in boarding manouvers outside a ship etc. Had you built a standard marine sucked out into space I'd definitely have used it

Well, the debris sort of worked.

[Blue Lion]

I heard what you said, and I said it's actually kind of a strange view.  If you were to go to Iraq, and see a bunch of dead soldiers lying on the ground, you probably would not say "Hmmm, the must have fell out of a transport plane.  How clumsy."  No, you'd probably say "OMG!  What a terrible battle that must have taken place here!"

First off, I don't know about anyone else. But I don't recall saying they fell out of a transport. I simply said it was a crash.

Granted, you know it's Iraq and know ground battles took place there.  What if you didn't know you were in Iraq?  Would you still think they fell out of a plane?  No, you'd assume they died from battle.

Absolutely not. Let me repeat that, absolutely not. If I see US soldiers down to skeletons, that's not the remains of a battle. I cannot believe the governments of today would leave bodies there after a battle for that long.

The problem with your idea, is that it's overly complex, and not in line with the theme of the piece.  You're assuming the creators had some comlex backstory unrelated behind the dead soldiers, completely unrelated to everything else that's going on with the piece.  To be quite honest, that is an extremely strange viewpoint, but then again, us nerds aren't known for thinking normal.

Not at all. If you look at it like you want us to, as a new person to the FS universe then nothing makes sense, everything is taken at face value. There is no complex storyline. I see a crashed ship and I see dead bodies. Skeletons at that. I've never thought a battle happened there, ever.

Most likely, the people who created it, who have degrees in this stuff and are always are thinking with themes, are not going to put something in their piece that has some complex backstory unrelated to the events happening in the piece.  Most likely they were thinking along simple lines, and that is:  humanity getting its butt kicked by ugly alien bad dudes, and everything you see is the aftermath of that conflict.  Even the crashed Hades, which we all know doesn't belong there, those guys must have put in there to conceptually show some wreckage from the same battle we saw moments before.  You see, it's all very simple, and very straightforward.  The simplest answer is always the most likely one.

And the dead soldiers, like the Hades and the dead Herc pilot, showed "some wreckage from the same battle we saw moments before"

My question though is this.... If

[They] are not going to put something in their piece that has some complex backstory unrelated to the events happening in the piece

Then why do you assume a ground battle took place, since it has nothing to do with that's happening in the piece. Wouldn't a ground battle that only leaves you dead human soldiers have a complex backstory unrelated to the humans getting their asses kicked at Deneb? It shows a dead pilot we assume is the one we saw in combat before, we see wreckage in orbit above Deneb. A ground battle wouldn't work with that.

You're telling me to think the ship (or ships) crashed on the surface and they died can't be a reasonable or even likely event because it creates an unrelated complex backstory but the fact that a ground battle happened around a crashed Hades is more likely because it doesn't create a complex backstory that pulls away from the main theme of the intro.


I'll put it as plain as I can, if I see skeletons, I don't think battle. Period. We don't leave bodies on the battlefield for that long.

[Freespace Freak]

Oh, I see what you're saying.  My thing is that I never really saw a connection from the wrecked spaceship to the dead soldiers, except that I always thought they all were the results of the battle seen moments before.  You don't see the soldier dead with the hades in the background, nor do you see the Hades, then zoom in and see the soldiers.  To me they always seemed like seperate entities, as seperate as the Hades is to the downed Herc.  However, the Herc and the Hades are related in that the viewer would probably expect both of them to have been destroyed in the battle we saw moments before. 

So, I always saw three scenes in that part, one showing the wreckage of the Hades, another showing a bunch of dead marines (apparantly the after effects of a battlefield), and another showing the wreckage of the downed Herc.  You saw only two scenes, that of the Hades, and that of the Herc.  I don't think either perspective is wrong, however I still believe that either way the creators intentions were to show the after-effects of that battle, so in their minds all of that is the result of the battle at the beginning of the cutscene.

So, in my mind, I think there are actually three parts to that cutscene, with three seperate, but related themes.  The first is the struggle between humanity and the Shivans, the second is how that struggle is affecting the present, and the third is how humanity has reacted to it ("and so we forge a new alliance").

[Mobius]

A simple solution:

To make it look cooler.No battles,no fallen warships/transports but something better than ruins.

[Freespace Freak]

I'm still not completely convinced that the ship we see is actually a Hades, but when I first saw it, I definately wouldn't have thought that, since I never had seen one before.  The thing is, I'm watching the cutscene, but I don't see anything around it that would indicate scale.  I see little brown "splotches" that could be those cross-beam structures we see later on, but it's too small and pixelated to be sure.  To be honest, it wasn't until recently when people were talking about it on this forum that I even thought it could have been anything larger than a fighter in the first place.  Since I have no real sense of scale, I always assumed it was merely a crashed fighter, which wouldn't explain the prescence of the soldiers at all.  If you knew it was a "big ship," then that might make sense, but since I always thought it was small, I never thought the soldiers came from it.