[Dark Hunter]

The problem with that theory, Mehrpack, is that it has been 8,000 years since the Ancient xenocide. If they did blockade themselves into a star system following their war with the Shivans, then by now they would have repopulated and become powerful enough to rejoin galactic civilization. They would still have had all their tech from before and during the Shivan war, which includes the Knossos, so they would be able to break out of their sanctuary.

These surviving Ancients might not even believe in the Shivans. How many 8,000 year-old stories do you believe? So what's holding the Ancients to this new star system?

[TrashMan]

Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are.

One thing to think bout it that sapce is big...redicolously big. You could easily hide a small fleet inside a single system.

The ancients, being an advanced space-faring race must have had untold thousands of jump-capable spacecraft, and their empire was big.
The logical step for them, when it was obvious that Shivans are far superior and they are coming from them, is to assmeble several escape fleets and scatter, in the deirections other than from which the shivans came.

the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.

Given how jumping works in FS2, it's practicly impossible to catch someone who started to run a few days before you came, since:
a) In a few days a fast ship cna be on the other side of hte galaxy
b) tracking at those distances is impossible
c) travel-spped in subspace is the same for everyone, so as long as your prey is running you'll NEVER catch up.

[TrashMan]

The problem with that theory, Mehrpack, is that it has been 8,000 years since the Ancient xenocide. If they did blockade themselves into a star system following their war with the Shivans, then by now they would have repopulated and become powerful enough to rejoin galactic civilization. They would still have had all their tech from before and during the Shivan war, which includes the Knossos, so they would be able to break out of their sanctuary.

These surviving Ancients might not even believe in the Shivans. How many 8,000 year-old stories do you believe? So what's holding the Ancients to this new star system?

The question is - which ancients survived. I really doubt that theri brightest and greatest scientists, with all the high tech they had made it trough.
whatever acients survived, they were probably average citizens, with only some highly-educated, and carrying nothing but supplies needed to survive. They had theri ship to dismantle, yees, but htat's not that much to start a new civilization with.

Tehy wouldn't loose everything, but they wouldn't have all when they start anew either. It would take a lot of time to rebuild a civilization with oinly several thousand survivors. and the question is - how far have they run? They maby be on the other edge of our galaxy.

Another thing to consider is, that the survivors might refrain from using subspace technology ever again, but that is a bit far fetched...

[Mehrpack]

The problem with that theory, Mehrpack, is that it has been 8,000 years since the Ancient xenocide. If they did blockade themselves into a star system following their war with the Shivans, then by now they would have repopulated and become powerful enough to rejoin galactic civilization. They would still have had all their tech from before and during the Shivan war, which includes the Knossos, so they would be able to break out of their sanctuary.

These surviving Ancients might not even believe in the Shivans. How many 8,000 year-old stories do you believe? So what's holding the Ancients to this new star system?

hi,
like trashman say, its really possible if they survive they had to beginning form zero, with there new civilistation.

i mean we have lost so many knowledge in the last 100 and 1000 years, and our civilisation wasnt doomed by a high aggressiv alien race.
but yes we find a research a lot of new technology in the last 200 years.
so isnt really easy to say, if they survive, on which level of technologie they are today.
but its possible that they havnt a glow how to build a knossos for example and so cant escape there island.

the other thing that you say with: over 8000 years old legends.
yes, thats thru, but you have to see, that here on earth we didnt have so a massiv incident like that in the story.
so you cant really compare the believed of old legends with the story over an arch enemy that doomed there whole civilisation, maybe with good evidence.
i think after so an event that have more substance in a culture over a really long time.
but yes its really hard to say.
but i believe, if we find ancient then is there a really strong religion over the shivan and the end destruction they are bringing.

mhh and theres another question: the lifetime.
i mean if think about what happend 8000 yeas ago, that for us a long time, because we life only 80 years.
but we didnt know how long can life an ancient if they not killed by force or by a disease.
if they have a livetime of 1000 years, so thats only 8 generations but maybe the life only 20 humans years, so there thousend of generations.

so its really speculative but i think theres many nice possible way to tell it in a mod.

Mehrpack

[karajorma]

the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.

It's quite possible that the Shivans can track which jumpnodes have been used recently. You could very easily track down and eradicate an entire species if you could do that

[MarkN]

If I was running away from the Shivan, I would get away from the main assault and use a SLOWER than light spacecraft i.e. a small sleeper ship to travel into the interstellar void. In that case it could take 8000 years (depending how much slower than light) just to get to my destination. The ancients could still be out there...

[Centrixo]

Alternativly, vasudans could be what's left of the ancients in this galaxy - they could be their descendants or tehy could have had contact with the ancients in their beginings (which would explain the belief in the destroyers)

the Anceints definatly had contact with that Vasudans but that was it, i hardly think that the Vasudans were a birth defect of a old enpire. besides that where is the proof to back that claim?

Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are.

That would definitely only be possible if Vasudans/Humans were ancients' descendants.

as for humans being a Ancient, well humans have been around for a very long time like in the order of 250,000 years so that completly contradicts what you said about humans.

This pattern was not followed, however, with the Vasudans.  One possible explanation is that the Shivans viewed the Terrans and Vasudans as a single empirical entity, meaning that they had two homeworlds to destroy.  When they failed to destroy Earth, it threw a monkey wrench in their plans. 

negatory, shivans definatly saw the Vasudans and Terrans as inferior but i never a singular race, reason is simple the shivans were built for Xenocide and battle, there only interest is eradicating the home system because the shivans think that once this is down, it will drop morale to gian the shivans a edge.

Given how jumping works in FS2, it's practicly impossible to catch someone who started to run a few days before you came, since:
a) In a few days a fast ship cna be on the other side of hte galaxy
b) tracking at those distances is impossible
c) travel-spped in subspace is the same for everyone, so as long as your prey is running you'll NEVER catch up.

you would be suprised about the shivans, they dont need to use jump nodes to get to another system, as for subspace tracking, indeed what someone said about advanced space faring culture and some how the shivans were brought up in subspace, its not inpossible it could be well within thier grasp.

[Jeb Hoge]

My assumption would be that the Shivan onslaught probably destroyed all but handfuls of Ancients, and what remained was probably insufficient to rebuild their civilization/species.

Think about "The Matrix" and how Zion existed as the last bastion of humanity, holed up deep underground and praying against all odds that they never be found.

[Mars]

Shivans need jump nodes too.

[Flipside]

I have doubts about the Shivans evolving in Subspace, for a start, if they did that, why did they develop a capship shield that only works outside of Subspace?

I'm most inclined to believe Jeb on this occasion, the chances are that what remained of the Ancients was scattered and too few to propogate the species and they are now extinct.

[Mehrpack]

hi,
*wild speculation and theory mode on*
the survivers splitting in 3 remaining groups.

first group believed that there time are over and seek a place to die (maybe they make the information over the lucifer).

second group think that the there is over too, but teach the other younger species over the beast in the darkness so that they maybe escape theirs destiny (vasudan).

third group doesnt see so black, keep the rest together and search for a new place to life and try to rebuild there civilisation and kick someday the asses of the shivans.

*mode off*

to the shivans and subspace: yes thats illogical if they build a ship with shield that didnt work in theirs natural environment.
maybe the subspace itsself its like a thin membran between our univers and the universe of the shivan, and jumps have a negativ effect on their universe.

but i dont think that the shivans came form another universe, too.
i think that problem is our own problem.
our universe is old enaugh that the shivan have enough time and place to come to an evil species.
and maybe there are only like bees, they defend theirs honey pot .

Mehrpack
Mehrpack

[Mobius]

I'm sure there were more then two that would survive. Probably on the order of several thousand to several hundred thousand would remain. If they were so advanced, I'd reckon that if they did remain on Altair for their last days, perhaps the city they were in was built around them during that time? The ruins seen actually was a city post-Shivan?

Anyways I believe perhaps a convoy of Ancients made it away from the shivans... perhaps we would meet them in FS3 beyond Altair?
If I was looking for an escape from the Shivans with the current nodemap, I'd definately chance it beyond Altair or Regulus... both are seemingly Shivan-free.

Uhm...

the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.

It's quite possible that the Shivans can track which jumpnodes have been used recently. You could very easily track down and eradicate an entire species if you could do that

Yup. I talked about something similar in anoter thread.

[TrashMan]

the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.

It's quite possible that the Shivans can track which jumpnodes have been used recently. You could very easily track down and eradicate an entire species if you could do that

Hughly unlikely. Tracking a ship while in subspace seems difficult enough.
Especially since any tech that could tell you which node was used recently would have a time limit. What is "recently? A day? A few hours?

the Ancients surely weren't conquered in a day. They had plenty of time to take a lot of ship and scatter in all directions. There's no way the shivans could track them all down.

Think of it as Americans wanting to kill of every North Korean (but there are only several thousands of them). Despite the US tracking tech and firepower, the jungle is a big place, with lots of places to hide...

[karajorma]

Hughly unlikely. Tracking a ship while in subspace seems difficult enough.

And yet the Shivans managed to track the Taranis through subspace to a completely different system from the one it was captured in without even being spotted by the Terrans.

[Mobius]

Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies and gigantic fleet. They can hunt down entire species.

[Bob-san]

The Universe is a VERY big place... more places to hide then even the Shivans know about! Think of it... hundreds of thousands of stars in our own galaxy... say one planet in each system at a minimum... that's an equal number of stars to planets! The Ancients were probably prominent in TerraForming that they could, in the cource of years, terraform a planet like Mars to be hospitable like Earth... probably by introducing methane and then replacing the methane with oxygen and carbon dioxide...

Still if there are miners-vessels, and hundreds of thousands of planets, most of which are gas giants! You know that Jupiter needs some 10% more mass to start reactions in its core... effectively making the gas planet a brown dwarf! It's already past self-sufficent...

The ancients probably were able to evacuate on the scale of well over a million refugees; similar to how we evacutated our colony at Capella! We were able to get out millions of Terrans and Vasudans. Say a million to colonize a world... that's several thousand transports with enough supplies to hold them over for a long while; power by the gasminers, cargo by freighters, raw ore-processing in small-scale, and millions of people, of which probably 90% will die from problems... still that's 10% that survive will probably create a great civilization!

I Good point Kara. However, what happens if ten convoys go to different directions? Will the shivans really be able to find and destroy all? I think it is more likely that the Ancients will redevelop like the Vasuans; only diff is the stories of the destroyers will be their history and future. Probably will not venture into space for several thousand years after redeveloping... a bit dangerous with old fears. Eventually they'll leave their planet and begin to rediscover their past and live that for a bit, till they encounter either Terran/Vasudan or Shivan.

I wonder what happened to the other races Ancients would destroy... and if Vasuda was saved or nurtured, would they also help others pass infancy and join galactic civilization?


Oh Mobius i still need your Mission 2...

[TrashMan]

Hughly unlikely. Tracking a ship while in subspace seems difficult enough.

And yet the Shivans managed to track the Taranis through subspace to a completely different system from the one it was captured in without even being spotted by the Terrans.

Tracking a ship TROUGH subspace, as it travels (and you know it's starting point) is one thing. Shivans had ships in the system where Thmbough station was located and they had ships in the system in which the Taranis was captured. Thus when the freighter arrived in-system and made the jump to Tombough, the shivans tracked it.

Knowing where a ship went after a dozen jumps trough several star system (and you weren't even there to begin with) is a completely other thing. Any tracking, any tech, has it's limits.

And how would you ever find several ancients scattered on a surface of a remote planet that are activly hiding (avoiding any EM emisions or stuff like that?)

[karajorma]

Good point Kara. However, what happens if ten convoys go to different directions? Will the shivans really be able to find and destroy all?

I'm keeping an open mind on the subject. Notice that I argued earlier that the Ancients did have a non-subspace interstellar tech which the Shivans may not have been able to track (or catch them even if they did know exactly which direction they took).

The Shivans certainly do have the resources to have wiped out the ancients if they had wanted to. The question is whether they wanted to. Maybe wiping them out as any kind of power in the galaxy was enough for them.

Tracking a ship TROUGH subspace, as it travels (and you know it's starting point) is one thing. Shivans had ships in the system where Thmbough station was located and they had ships in the system in which the Taranis was captured. Thus when the freighter arrived in-system and made the jump to Tombough, the shivans tracked it.

Knowing where a ship went after a dozen jumps trough several star system (and you weren't even there to begin with) is a completely other thing. Any tracking, any tech, has it's limits.

And? Who are you to arbitrarily draw the limit at exactly the point which suits your argument? Who says that Subspace isn't all connected like some vast spiders web which can be read several jumps away? The Shivans are masters of subspace tech. I don't consider that sort of thing at all beyond their powers. And if you do consider the fact that something brought them to T/V space in the first place.

[Bob-san]

Exactly the point if they havent reappeared...

Anyways from Egyptian lore, I'd say the Ancients were bipedal and at least similar to Terrans and Vasudans. Seems likey that the lore from Egypt would be another explination, though it didn't stick quite as much. It seems to me the Ancients developed from a desert-like planet as well, or most civilizations they encountered would be from a desert.  They went to Vasuda and it seems they would look in Egypt as well.

And Kara... I see your point. Subspace seems like a spiderweb... it's easier to go through it. I think that the shivans were more of the interstellar-spiders... making the web that attaches everything. Only a matter of time before they repair the web they create. I think they're more concerned with keeping most of the web intact and preventing superpowers then actually meddling in other species affairs... if there is fighting they will find it and punish both sides. If there is absolute peace, they will simply leave them alone. They seem to view everything as hive-minded; go for the important areas and kill anything that could interfere. Remember that their tendancies point to keeping an edge... who says that the escaping transport didnt get a scan of them? Perhaps that scan and thousands of other scans would make a way to effectively block Shivan weapons and build what will strongly defend against them?

[Centrixo]

nonsense, about a superdestroyer with a shield that dont work in subspace, and if you ever read the text on the shivans, they were brought up in subspace zero g, and you see the sathanas that has a moajor weakness, the demon has a major weakness and the bloody ravana has a major weakness. its not all about protection for the shivans, its about all out xenocide, these cretures had a caraprace attached to thier structure and programmed.

as for the anceints, the anceints had absoutly no shields on any of thier ships, thats one of the reasons why the ancients lost out to the shivans. as for the transports, how many jump modes led off from a place like deneb or sirius? 3, and the shivans knew aboutthese routes, dont you think the shivans would of already figured that out by now as they have a advanced tracking and a connection with subspace as well .