[AlphaOne]

Actualy i believe that it is said in one of the ancient monologues that they expanded in the galaxi and beyond..but i'm not exactly sure if that is the corect source.

Also TMan:"You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over." I find this rather insulting and quite far from the truth I dont know any of them (at least from the ones i know) that do that. Each arguement  in this respective case is backed up by 3 or 4 different texts in diferent books of the Bible.

Also Gustavo you brought up the arguement that the Ancients destroyed civilizations on they own and races but I ask you how many of them were as advanced as the Ancients? How many were as large as the Ancients? In one of the ancient monologues there is reference to these races as beeing inferior and something else cant remember exactly what they called them besides that.

As for thearguemnt of shivans beeing from subspace and presenting the Lucifer as some sort of evidence for that reson is absolute nonesence! The only reason why shivans dont fight in subspace in mi opinion at least is because they know very well what the consequences of ships exploding there are. You would have to be absolutely retarted to wage battle in subspace and risk colapsing nodes. The GTVA learned this the shivans already knew it. Also if the shivans were from subspace then you would expect they ships to be vastly superior in combat to the enemy ones.

Saing that they developed the ships to fight in realspace and exclusevly for that pourpose is nonesence what kind of idiot would leave such a huge opening in  its armour? It's like gooing to war in a tank that is stripped of all the armour from the turret leaving only the gun the chasie and the crew.

[Ghostavo]

AlphaOne, the problem is that all we have on the Ancients expansion is

Ours was a proud people.
And always the strongest.
For thousands of years our empire expanded.
For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. 
For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.

And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy. 
And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited.
And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace.  It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe.

With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

One cannot be sure as to how far they expanded, it may have been little beyond GTVA space, it may have been several galaxies.

Regarding the "How many were as large as the Ancients?" It's meaningless, as the Ancients themselves were as insignificant to the Shivans as the "lower races" the Ancients encountered were to them. It's just on a larger scale.

As for the rest, I don't have a formed opinion.

[Centrixo]

Actualy i believe that it is said in one of the ancient monologues that they expanded in the galaxi and beyond..but i'm not exactly sure if that is the corect source.

Also TMan:"You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over." I find this rather insulting and quite far from the truth I dont know any of them (at least from the ones i know) that do that. Each arguement  in this respective case is backed up by 3 or 4 different texts in diferent books of the Bible.

i dont care about a book on rules from a non exisisant being.

your all sounding like religous zealots imo, this is a game and someone said it themselves. i only presented enough proof on the shivans and the ancients to tell you that what happend, did happen and cant be changed, the race was destroyed and even if 1 survived, without reproduction its as good as dead(highly unlikey its offspring will reproduce with its mother).

what happend out there with the shivans and ancients is a massive battle on every scale imaginable, land, technological, space wars, superiority, etc. and in the end the ancients were killed because there weapons could not penerate the shield of any shivan, they had no shield of thier own, there ownage speeches is exactly what brought them down. is not impossible that the ancients were all killed, its very possible after all someone said something about a 'advanced space faring culture', and just look at what happend to vasuda, of innocents died on that planet and only a handful escaped and without the terrans, the vasudans were as good as dead.

the ancients had no allies and could not rely on any race that was around, it could be possible that another race competly killed off the ancients but thats an entirly different matter, but the point is the ancients had nowhere to go, and had a knossos in construction and by the time any, if any convoys reached the knossos, the thing would be active and they would of escaped and shutting the knossos behind them, witch would explian the reasons the shivans destroyed Rivera station at Ross 128.

guess someone was right when they said 'the shivans are just as dependant on jump nodes as we are.' the shivans were trapped.

[Bob-san]

I find the Referance Bible to be partial canon... planned for a FS3, though it never was made due to Interplay's crash. The Referance Bible could be changed because the Game Universe isn't completely "in stone" until the last game EVER is made! New ideas enter, scripts change, ideas evolve. Just look at how a campaign writer encounters problems and adapts changes! I plan one mission in advance, knowing the ending I want to use... the story I have currently for TSP is basic... I spit out dialogue as needed, change items rapidly. Mobius is changing some of the missions to fix problems we didn't think fo before... as we develop them, we change others as needed. Make more sense, change difficulty of each mission, etc.

On the point of Shivan shields failing to work in Subspace... remember the hull strength as well. They have some of the strongest shields and hulls! They want to fight in Realspace as Subspace is much more dangerous.

The Human Race versus some like the Aryan race... one is an ethnic group one is a complete species.

The ancients still subdued or crushed countless smaller civilizations; it is very likely that current T/V space is part of Ancient's home-space. The nodes were there, the artifacts are there, it's likely that the Shivans came to Terran space in the first place since they thought we were the Ancients; that they didn't complete the extermination of the Ancients. Probably thought with the Lucifer that the Ancients grew a bit smarter; settled Vasuda, Sol, and a number of other systems. Go for the homeworlds then go for everything else. In the first engagement, they failed to finish off Sol. In the second, something worse... I think that the destruction of the first SJ Sathanas by the GTVA Colossus was a shocker to Shivans... they threw everything they had, thinking once again that T/V were too strong too quickly. Destroy them... warn them for whatever reason.

Shivans seem dependant on subspace rips (aka nodes) to travel between Subspace and Realspace. They are much better at creating temporary "rips" and can find a rip quickly and find where it goes before it disappears. Likely that the destruction of the Knossos, shutting down the Gamma Draconis/Nebula node, was like sewing Realspace back together again; however the Shivans demonstrated that before Truespace mends itself, they can manipulate it and keep a hole in the whole.

Who knows... only

[Ghostavo]

I find the Referance Bible to be partial canon... planned for a FS3, though it never was made due to Interplay's crash. The Referance Bible could be changed because the Game Universe isn't completely "in stone" until the last game EVER is made! New ideas enter, scripts change, ideas evolve. Just look at how a campaign writer encounters problems and adapts changes! I plan one mission in advance, knowing the ending I want to use... the story I have currently for TSP is basic... I spit out dialogue as needed, change items rapidly. Mobius is changing some of the missions to fix problems we didn't think fo before... as we develop them, we change others as needed. Make more sense, change difficulty of each mission, etc.

On the point of Shivan shields failing to work in Subspace... remember the hull strength as well. They have some of the strongest shields and hulls! They want to fight in Realspace as Subspace is much more dangerous.

The Human Race versus some like the Aryan race... one is an ethnic group one is a complete species.

The ancients still subdued or crushed countless smaller civilizations; it is very likely that current T/V space is part of Ancient's home-space. The nodes were there, the artifacts are there, it's likely that the Shivans came to Terran space in the first place since they thought we were the Ancients; that they didn't complete the extermination of the Ancients. Probably thought with the Lucifer that the Ancients grew a bit smarter; settled Vasuda, Sol, and a number of other systems. Go for the homeworlds then go for everything else. In the first engagement, they failed to finish off Sol. In the second, something worse... I think that the destruction of the first SJ Sathanas by the GTVA Colossus was a shocker to Shivans... they threw everything they had, thinking once again that T/V were too strong too quickly. Destroy them... warn them for whatever reason.

Shivans seem dependant on subspace rips (aka nodes) to travel between Subspace and Realspace. They are much better at creating temporary "rips" and can find a rip quickly and find where it goes before it disappears. Likely that the destruction of the Knossos, shutting down the Gamma Draconis/Nebula node, was like sewing Realspace back together again; however the Shivans demonstrated that before Truespace mends itself, they can manipulate it and keep a hole in the whole.

Who knows... only

When the Reference Bible was made, FS2 didn't exist yet.

Regarding "the shivans thought we were Ancients" is somewhat a strange argument, because the Ancients from a Shivan perspective (It sounds strange, but follow it) aren't that significative, as there were countless races they destroyed before them. The Shivans did what they did when they found the Terrans and Vasudans like when they found the Ancients and races before them.

Regarding the second engagement, I don't imagine a race of cosmic destroyers being shocked that one ship in their 80+ strong juggernaut fleet was destroyed while encountering afterwards little resistance to them.

[Centrixo]

heard of the saying, 'an monkey on your back'? in this case the shivans completly killed the monkey, in otherwords.

the GTVA Collossus hunted down and killed the first sj, the first sj was probably a lure so the shivans can gather thier forces as quick as possible, in the end the collossus was destroyed in a calculated attack, the shivans knew full well the GTVA only had one massive ship and took advantage of it, it definatly dropped morale through out the batter against the shivans, and whats more the shivans have gathered thier strength and took capella quickly to stop a counterattack.

[Bob-san]

I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.

The GTVA appears to be overlapping or completely in what was Ancients space... a reexpansion with better tech would be bad if they went further, mopping up the remains of other subdued civilizations. The Terrans and Vasudans would be threatening as they would seem to be Ancients; strong, expanding, and with high tech. Nearly to the point that they could be a threat to others and a small dagger in the side of Shivans... the first time sorted out that they weren't Ancients. Still, they were becoming a dagger; best to stop them.

I think it's likely that the Shivans were in many wars at the same time. Perhaps the reason we didnt see Sathanas was because they were mopping up the remains of other civilizations. The Lucifer wasn't seen in FS2 because we had tech to destroy the shielded ship in Realspace, and in Subspace it was much more dangerous for Shivans to fight there. A Sathanas heading a large attack on the GTVA would subdue them once again. When the GTVA destroyed that inital Sathanas, it said to the Shivans that this was much more then just a cleaning-job... time to tear these limb-from-limb!

Very true, Centrixo... it would have been smarter for the GTVA to have kept the Colossus... it was evident that the captain of the Colossus would sacrafice a ship thirty years in the making, instead of jumping out and having it in drydock, repair it for the next 1-3 years. It would have been even better after that; stronger beams, prehaps a second main reactor, overdriven beams as a standard feature. It could probably hold a few more squadrons of fighters and bombers, its speed increased, and its damaged hull reinforced. Damage can be repaired (most of the time) faster then a new ship be built.

[Ghostavo]

I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.

And how would you know that?

Also, why would the Shivans have an Ancient fixation?

[Bob-san]

I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.

And how would you know that?

Also, why would the Shivans have an Ancient fixation?

You could know that because they only sent one Sathanas at first... they would have won a month earlier if they sent two or more!

The Shivans might be obsessed with killing Ancients... they thought they did a job 100%, though the recent combat in that are say that failed. They want to clean up the spill before it spreads; stop what they think are Ancients and make sure they never expand again.

[NGTM-1R]

One cannot be sure as to how far they expanded, it may have been little beyond GTVA space, it may have been several galaxies.

IIRC the tech room specifically states their empire reached well beyond the current expansion of the GTVA.

[Centrixo]

yeah but well beyond could mean upto this galaxy and several more. its only speculation witch im going to say; this could be far more bigger than anyone thought possible, who knows how big this battle really is. several galaxies wide and the shivans are in every galaxy thier in.  so atleast 3 lucifers and several million jump nodes.
opps i think i opened a can of worms...

[Ghostavo]

I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.

And how would you know that?

Also, why would the Shivans have an Ancient fixation?

You could know that because they only sent one Sathanas at first... they would have won a month earlier if they sent two or more!

The Shivans might be obsessed with killing Ancients... they thought they did a job 100%, though the recent combat in that are say that failed. They want to clean up the spill before it spreads; stop what they think are Ancients and make sure they never expand again.

How do you know that the entire Sathanas armada wasn't already heading for capella?

Also, why specifically the Ancients when they have done the same thing countless times before to countless other races? After 8000 years of their last encounter with that alien race, one would assume they would know it was new one, like the countless new ones they encountered before.

Unless you mean they still think about exterminating the very first race they destroyed.


Regarding the Ancients, it seems I've missed a specific monologue.

When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.

Either way, it doesn't alter their destruction at the hands of the Shivans.

[AlphaOne]

WEll that about settles it with the ancients expansion. I mean you have several knossos gates built in the nebula and you see some more in that SOC mission deep into shivan controlled space. It is a very real posibility that with the ancient subspace tech wich as we can see rivals that of the shivans they might of found a way to seal themselfs in a tini corner and escape the shivans. In an empire as large as the one of the ancients you can not know what goes one all the time in every corner of your empire. With them loosing contact with some sistems and seeing as how the shivans were determined to exterminate them the ancients that left us the monologues could of simpli asumed that those sistems suffered the same fate as the others and that is total conquest and anihalation. But this is just mi personal opinion.

[TrashMan]

Given that when the Aquitaine reaches the nebula you are told that you have traveled further than any terran in the history of space travel, and you find other Knossos portals that leaed even further, I woukd say that the Ancient empire was far bigger than the GTVA...

[Bob-san]

I agree with the size of the Ancients empire being many times current GTVA territory. Knossos are Ancients, though Shivans will use them for ease of use.

The Ancients Empire was gigantic; it would be hard to find all worlds they've been on and sort out the race of the Ancients and other subdued races. The shivans seem just; they would probably not destroy other races that were subdued by the Ancients. Likely that they would destroy those that have been part of the Ancients Empire for a long time, though unlikely that recent expansion would be truly considered Ancients. Remember the Shivans didn't attack the first planets (if memory serves) of the first conquered systems... they started to exterminate all other Ancients. A liberation force perhaps?

[Mobius]

"For thousands of years our Empire expanded"


That's MANY MANY MANY times GTVA space...

[Ghostavo]

"For thousands of years our Empire expanded"


That's MANY MANY MANY times GTVA space...

Without subspace technology... read the rest.

[Mobius]

You mean listen the rest...

Unless the translation I have in my mind sucks, you can't give for sure that the Ancients discovered subspace after thousands of years of space exploration. The Terran species discovered it early, the same is for the Vasudans.

The Ancients' civilization was far bigger.

[Ghostavo]

Ours was a proud people.
And always the strongest.
For thousands of years our empire expanded.
For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. 
For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.

And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy. 
And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited.
And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace.  It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. 
And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. 
In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution.  On a similar but slower path.

With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

[Dark Hunter]

I wonder just what technology they were using before they discovered subspace. It's pretty apparent that the GTVA relies exclusively on it for any kind of long-range travel, esp. interstellar. Shivans... maybe not. They use it a lot, sure, but they may also use other methods (Capella explosion?).

Were the Ancients using ships capable of relativistic speeds? Multi-generational ships for travel between stars? Suspended animation of some sort? Some combination of all three?

It seems to flesh out the universe of FS a bit more, in my opinion. Having more than just one way to do something makes it seem more... realistic.