[Bob-san]

Who knows... only

I tend to think of the Shivans as sort of spiders in the way they live in subspace, and subspace is basically a spider-web. Anyways... either enough Ancients escaped and their condition would degrade that they weren't truly the dangerous "Ancients" the shivans wanted dead. I think they'd eventually just let a species survive with the fear; thousands of years set-back and fearful of regaining those years.

Anyways... it seems to me the Shivans are hive-minded, and anything the interferes with Shivans will be attacked until they're far enough away to make sure nothing more will harm them, for thousands of years or more. It seems their point is to stop the ultraviolent, and leave alone the harmless and the defenders. Misinterpretation of other civilizations. I think the Shivans thought that even after Sol was cut off, the Terrans and Vasudans would collapse, and take care of themselves. However, big surprize, the Terrans and Vasudans grew stronger. When they stumbled upon the Shivans again, the shivans were going to send in a Ravana to destroy and disperse the likely-weak T/V's.

[phatosealpha]

On annihilating space faring species:

Consider:  Despite 60 years of peace, and having access to all the colonies and industrial resources of the old Vasudan and Terran Empires save for Terra and Vasuda Prime, the GTVA still can't get enough Argon to build proper Prometheuses.  If the gas they were having trouble with was Oxygen instead of Argon, then the Vasudans would likely be extinct without any more then a destroyed homeworld.

The ancients, by comparison, had largely retreated to their homeworld (as per FS1 cutscenes) only to have it annihilated, and unlike the GTA/PVE, they would've had a more powerful empire 'cleaning up' instead of a peaceful period to reconstruct.

Space Empires typically aren't constructed to go nomadic.  They need ground installations and space installations to keep the supply trains coming.  In an era of subspace, could we even really depend on colonization vessels to carry everything that was needed to create a completely self sufficient society on a new planet?  Capable of producing food, metals, medical supplies, life support - not to mention sufficient colonists to make it even slightly plausible - while at the same time being able to avoid the raging shivans long enough to find a reasonably hospitable planet to settle on?

Trying to establish a survivable society is hard enough with most of your colonies intact and your enemies gone.  With your homeworld gone, your colonies being wiped out, and your entire race being hunted by a genocidal xenophobic race who just happen to be the unchallenged masters of subspace?

"There are few of us left. We know we will soon be gone."

[Bob-san]

Few is relative...

In our society of 6 billion people currently, "few" survivors would mean death rates above 51% or so... it's a fraction of the previous, and thus "few". I think the ancients might have suffered 90%-95% death... thus 1/10 to 1/20 of the original civilization are left... if that civilization was 100 billion strong, that would be anywhere from 10 billion to 5 billion... few for a massive civilization, though many for a smaller civilization. If the Ancients ruled un-contended for as long as I think they did, they have well over 20 billion people... 1-2 billion survivors, perhaps?

Anyways about the retreat thing...

The ancients, by comparison, had largely retreated to their homeworld

Largely follows the same thing as before...

I think Sol/Delta Serpentis node's destruction cut off about a third of the Human Race from the rest of the universe... it's a huge hit, losing contact with billions of people, though it's not the end as the GTVA demonstrated.

[phatosealpha]

Few is not the important part.   "We know we will soon be gone is."

You've got a universe with no ancients to be found, everyone calling them extinct, including themselves.

Do you have any canonical basis for suggesting they might still exists?

[Centrixo]

Who knows... only

[S-99]

What's with all of this shivans came from subspace ****? It's really getting dumb by about now. If shivans were from subspace why make shields that don't work in subspace? It's illogical. Just because shivans have a mastery of subspace, doesn't mean they are from it. Look at the rest of their ships, all designed to work in space with similarities to ship classes and sizes from other alien cultures, and even similar armaments.

Shivans have had the opportunity of existing for a really long time, that means they've evolved for a really long time. Shivans are from space no doubt, they just have a mastery of it. As for shivans not needing jump nodes and the fact that they still use them. Could be that jump nodes are easy and convenient to use. You go in one end, it's like a wormhole, you end up out the other end. Without jumpnodes, you need navicomputers to plot points where you're going to go in the galaxy. And then that's where you get bsg ftl types of risks where people jump from space inside of planets and inside of stars...etc. Not to mention a navicomputer would be a pretty advanced piece of technology, not to mention the tech to use subspace without nodes when going system to system. After that for shivans to be able to make the calculations they've made without jumping into a planet or something is a lot easier if you're making the jump calculations to somewhere you've been before. The shivans have been to some of terran/vasudan space before...8000 years ago. Either the shivans used a node to get to tv space before they got to ross128, or the shivans did a nodeless jump. Anyway, in all of fs we always catch the shivans using nodes. Y not use nodes? They're convenient, and they're everywhere, chances are they network in such a way that you can go where you want. Y make calculations when you know you can survive a blockade and get to a node.

[phatosealpha]

The shield point, rather obviously, is worthless.  Consider:  "If Terrans are from truespace, why make FTL drives that don't work in truespace?"  The answer is simply that they can't.  It's a simple mistake to wonder why the shivans didn't do something when you can't be certain such a thing is even possible.

Given that Terran and Vasudan ships function perfectly well in subspace - nearly identically, save for shields, in fact - it seems rather obvious that effective design in subspace and effective design in realspace are extremely similar.  In fact, we don't see a single ship that performs any differently in subspace then it does in realspace.  A fast realspace interceptor is a fast subspace interceptor, and a zero point energy cannon that blows you up in realspace blows you up just as well in subspace.  Given that, a subspace born race would certainly make ships that function similarly in armament and design - the principles of effective weapons and mobility hold as true in subspace and realspace. 

[NGTM-1R]

Did I say the Ancients were all dead? I did not.

[Centrixo]

The shield point, rather obviously, is worthless.  Consider:  "If Terrans are from truespace, why make FTL drives that don't work in truespace?"  The answer is simply that they can't.  It's a simple mistake to wonder why the shivans didn't do something when you can't be certain such a thing is even possible.

Given that Terran and Vasudan ships function perfectly well in subspace - nearly identically, save for shields, in fact - it seems rather obvious that effective design in subspace and effective design in realspace are extremely similar.  In fact, we don't see a single ship that performs any differently in subspace then it does in realspace.  A fast realspace interceptor is a fast subspace interceptor, and a zero point energy cannon that blows you up in realspace blows you up just as well in subspace.  Given that, a subspace born race would certainly make ships that function similarly in armament and design - the principles of effective weapons and mobility hold as true in subspace and realspace. 

and in english that means?...

s-99 stop flaming and listen to other peoples side of the story.

in subspace shields dont work, because certain energies cant be found in subspace, the shivans knew full well about this and they knew it was a overreaction on thier part to send one ship to earth, shields have abosoutly no connection with a race that was bent on wiping every race off the galaxy .

and i never said anything about the ancients were all dead .

[Bob-san]

From what I get from the game... the Shivans haven't needed to develop constantly. They have no need to build thousands of new weapons, each better then the previous. It's likely that one of the races they drove to extinction developed shields for them, and taught the Shivans a lesson they wouldn't forget... perhaps taking out several Lucifer or Sathanas with relative immunity from the weapons. I think that that could have been as little as a hundred years previous to the T/V War... only some of their ships are shielded, and all their fighters and bombers are. I think the Shivans develop at a much slower rate then others... they have the advantage of advanced Subspace tech, numbers, and seemingly endless resources. How much material could it take to build upward of eighty Sathanas? Those ships are gigantic...

Anyways it said the Ancients, with all their advanced tech, couldn't beat the sheer number of the Shivans. Perhaps they destroyed the first of the ships the Shivans sent... after that they would lose the front lines to more destroyers. The front lines broken, they start to reinforce systems that lead to their home... as more shivans come, the war becomes more costly with the loss of ships to swarm-tactics. No need to do so much as cut off supply lines... simply make sure there is no delivery-point. So many Shivans die though the continued push weakens Ancients.

Anyways... why doesn't Command ever sortie 8 squadrons at once against an enemy Destroyer? Much more chance then a squadron of Bombers and a Corvette... in the end it would probably be worthwhile. 1 squadron is 12 ships. 96 ships would be, including bombers and extra people onboard each, some 170 people... one destroyer is known to hold more then 2000 people, most military. Sortie large numbers of fighters and bombers... disable, disarm, and then destroyer in a short time... as little as 30 minutes?

[Mehrpack]

Few is not the important part.   "We know we will soon be gone is."

You've got a universe with no ancients to be found, everyone calling them extinct, including themselves.

Do you have any canonical basis for suggesting they might still exists?

hi,
we speculation and if the race great enought is possible that some one survive.

and if you has see how many of your people are killed by a space and only 10.000 or 100.000 survived the onslaught, that you really depressive and dont think positiv.

i didnt think if you where in so a situation you dont write that:" yeah the shivans came, kick our asses, 99% of our civilisation is death, but we will kill them all, someday.
now we travel a little bit in the universe to find a save place.
we dont bother about the shivan thread and that they us hunt, they have no skill, only instikt and we are the rulers, we will survive, peace brother.

ah and if any body find that message and have problems with the shivans, shields dont work in subspace, life long and prosper brother, see you some day."

ok maybe to many drugs but i didnt think in so an situation you will really find a message with great hope.

yeah maybe there all death and only there hulks left in space, like the knossos.
but maybe some survived and lure anywhere out in space.

i think the last eventuality bring more intresting opportunities, as only hulks.

Mehrpack

[Centrixo]

Anyways... why doesn't Command ever sortie 8 squadrons at once against an enemy Destroyer? Much more chance then a squadron of Bombers and a Corvette... in the end it would probably be worthwhile. 1 squadron is 12 ships. 96 ships would be, including bombers and extra people onboard each, some 170 people... one destroyer is known to hold more then 2000 people, most military. Sortie large numbers of fighters and bombers... disable, disarm, and then destroyer in a short time... as little as 30 minutes?

bad idea, one destroyer 96 fighters, like lambs to the slaughter. if it was me i would send a suicide squadron in take out atleast 4 beams and 4 flak turrets on one side to give the squardrons a fighting chance, but then again something like 80+ sj's then your talking something like, well over 2000 shivan fighters compared to 96, so not even that would work but, if you put it like that, then that is bad.

[Ghostavo]

Anyways it said the Ancients, with all their advanced tech, couldn't beat the sheer number of the Shivans. Perhaps they destroyed the first of the ships the Shivans sent... after that they would lose the front lines to more destroyers. The front lines broken, they start to reinforce systems that lead to their home... as more shivans come, the war becomes more costly with the loss of ships to swarm-tactics. No need to do so much as cut off supply lines... simply make sure there is no delivery-point. So many Shivans die though the continued push weakens Ancients.

From the Ancient's message, it's obvious they encountered the Lucifer or some other shielded ship that they couldn't destroy. Imagine the Great War but without an ancient long lost message that details how to beat the Lucifer. That's about what the Ancients suffered.

[TrashMan]

And? Who are you to arbitrarily draw the limit at exactly the point which suits your argument? Who says that Subspace isn't all connected like some vast spiders web which can be read several jumps away? The Shivans are masters of subspace tech. I don't consider that sort of thing at all beyond their powers. And if you do consider the fact that something brought them to T/V space in the first place.

That might be true, but ther's still the issue of killing them all. The shivans would have to COMPLETEY glass EVERY planet in EVERY system where tehy detected ancient activity of any kind to kill them all.

If just a handfull survives in a cave on some remote planet then they didn't kill them all. Even if the shivan knew in which system they fled, knowing exactly where they are in-system is a whole different thing. As far as I know, scanners that can detect a single human on a planet don't exist in the FS universe...

Look at the US - tehy can't find Osama even though they have a massive force searching for him and all that high-tech equipment, and know the general area where he is located.

In a big place, when someone with any brains is activly hiding, you won't find htem.

[TrashMan]

nonsense, about a superdestroyer with a shield that dont work in subspace, and if you ever read the text on the shivans, they were brought up in subspace zero g, and you see the sathanas that has a moajor weakness, the demon has a major weakness and the bloody ravana has a major weakness. its not all about protection for the shivans, its about all out xenocide, these cretures had a caraprace attached to thier structure and programmed.

Nope, so mention of being brought up in subspace at all:
-----

Physically, the Shivans have multiple, compound eyes and five legs with claw-like manipulators. Their insect-like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiognomy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology. The integrated plasma weapon also exhibits properties of an organic-artificial fusion. The weapon may be a kind of focusing device powered by the energy of the being itself, though this point is the subject of heated controversy.

These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity. Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the GTI's Hades rebellion in 2335. The results of these studies remain highly classified.

Though the Shivans are obviously xenocidal, their motives and origins have yet to be determined. According to Ancient artifacts, the Shivans seem to possess some kind of sensitivity to subspace disturbances. We do not know if the Shivans returned to this corner of the galaxy by chance, by cycle or pattern, or by their detection of Terran-Vasudan subspace travel. 

Xenobiologists know very little about Shivan society. A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior. Shivan communication seems to occur in the electromagnetic spectrum, though efforts to decode their transmissions have yielded no meaningful results to date.

[Centrixo]

Look at the US - tehy can't find Osama even though they have a massive force searching for him and all that high-tech equipment, and know the general area where he is located.

umm trying to compare 21st century equipment with 23rd century equipment dont even work.

1. not such thing yet for the latter

2. for the former we are not advanced yet. so you dont really know.

i definatly read up somewhere on shivan they were brought up in subspace and have a connection.

The Shivans (named after the Hindu god of destruction and regeneration Shiva) are an ancient, destructive race that has exterminated countless spacefaring races and recently fought two destructive wars against the Terrans and Vasudans. It has been confirmed that Shivans are in fact xenocidal. Shivans have a black exoskeleton, five legs, compound eyes, and are apparently some form of cybernetic organism, with both organic and inorganic components including an integrated plasma weapon. They are physically extremely strong and well adapted to a microgravity environment, possibly having evolved in it. The typical Shivan specimen is roughly 4m to 5m long and its height varies between 2.5 and 3.5m depending on its posture. It is theorised that the integral plasma cannon, inorganic materials, and cybernetic components can be explained by the use of an artificial exoskeleton of sorts (Descent: FreeSpace, Disc 2, the video featuring the boarding team).

Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the rebellion of the intelligence branch of the GTA at the close of the Great War. The results of these studies remain highly classified.

In Descent:Freespace the narrator (an Ancient) speculates that the Shivans are closely tied with subspace; they apparently are native to subspace, and take notice of any species that travels through it, acting to exterminate them. At the end of Descent: FreeSpace, it is theorized that the Shivans are the Galaxy's immune system. They appear and exterminate any species that develops subspace technology. By doing so, they prevent any one species from spreading across the entire galaxy and dominating all other races. It is theorized that humans would never have developed if not for the Shivans, because the Ancients would have been allowed to spread and eventually conquer Earth. Likewise, the Ancients would not have been able to develop, as they would have been conquered by the races that came before them.



now as for the3 ancients this is what i could get.
The Ancients species that conquered a large portion of the immediate region of the known galaxy, including parts of current Terran and Vasudan space, and beyond who were exterminated just under 8000 years ago. Thanks to their advanced technology, no enemy was ever able to withstand their might, until they encountered the Shivans. All of the Ancient's weapons and technology proved futile against the Shivan's seemingly invincible shield technology, and they were eventually exterminated after a prolonged war. The Ancients eventually discovered a weakness in Shivan shield technology — their inoperation while in subspace — and developed a means by which vessels could be tracked through subspace. This was too late, however, to save the Ancients from the Shivan incursion. During the course of the single-player campaign of the first game, the records of the Ancients are recovered by Vasudan archaeologists and used by Galactic Terran Alliance to defeat the Lucifer and win the Great War. It is speculated that the Terrans and Vasudans themselves would not have survived if the Ancients had been allowed to propagate and expand at will, and thus, in a strange reversal, making the Shivans the saviors of then still planet-bound humanity.

that puts to an end a birth defect[Terrans  & Vasudans] from the anceints.

[TrashMan]

Um..it does work.
Regardless of the tech level, trying to find someone who is hiding is ALLWAYS difficult.
As the search tech advances so does the hiding tech. And it's allways easier to hide than to look.

And if all else fails you can allways go low-tech. Live off the land in some cave in the jungle. No way anyone is going  to find you, and as I said, last time I checked super TRek-like scanners don't exist in FS universe..


And where did you get that quotes from if I may ask?

[Ghostavo]

Um..it does work.
Regardless of the tech level, trying to find someone who is hiding is ALLWAYS difficult.
As the search tech advances so does the hiding tech. And it's allways easier to hide than to look.

And if all else fails you can allways go low-tech. Live off the land in some cave in the jungle. No way anyone is going  to find you, and as I said, last time I checked super TRek-like scanners don't exist in FS universe..


And where did you get that quotes from if I may ask?

Perhaps, but either way the Ancients are gone.

From the FS Reference Bible

The Ancients Monologue tells a story parallel to the FreeSpace story.  It is the story of a race that was annihilated by the Shivans at an unspecified  point in the very distant past.

Their race (not civilization, not empire, race) was annihilated. End of discussion.

[Bob-san]

I'd like to ask something about a "race"... the socalled "Human Race" has races inside of it... mainly from descent... a large number of races exist in the Human "Race", who says that they were refering to all those that are Human or all those from a select race inside of Human were annilated? They'd seed their colonies and I doubt the Shivans would uproot all the colonies... thousands of different conquered and colonized planets and systems...

Remember that the GTVA didn't even know where Bosch was! He was right under our nose on an asteroid-installation... say the Shivans are ten times as good... it was what? 10km scanner range at max, with the outer half being scrambled? Still, trying to search a system with a scanner range of 100km would be near-impossible! Simply too much space! The Installation was huge... though shielded from emissions to some extent... still it's signature would be about equal or more then a Cruiser! I guess confirmed and unconfirmed does change a bit... they know a cruiser is there versus they don't know an installation is there.

The Ancients stumbled on other galaxies, intentionally or accidentally, they started to expand further. No matter the resources... we didn't know about the Sathanas until we stumbled upon one making for the Node in a Nebular Mist.

[Ghostavo]

I'd like to ask something about a "race"... the socalled "Human Race" has races inside of it... mainly from descent... a large number of races exist in the Human "Race", who says that they were refering to all those that are Human or all those from a select race inside of Human were annilated?

Erm... no.

There is only one so called "Human Race", homo sapiens. Deal with it.

Remember that the GTVA didn't even know where Bosch was! He was right under our nose on an asteroid-installation... say the Shivans are ten times as good... it was what? 10km scanner range at max, with the outer half being scrambled? Still, trying to search a system with a scanner range of 100km would be near-impossible! Simply too much space! The Installation was huge... though shielded from emissions to some extent... still it's signature would be about equal or more then a Cruiser! I guess confirmed and unconfirmed does change a bit... they know a cruiser is there versus they don't know an installation is there.

Although I can't really prove this, I'm pretty sure the GTVA knew where Bosch was, even if it was through intelligence.

And until told otherwise, I think it's safe to assume the shivans are near omniscient when it comes to space travel.

The Ancients stumbled on other galaxies, intentionally or accidentally, they started to expand further. No matter the resources... we didn't know about the Sathanas until we stumbled upon one making for the Node in a Nebular Mist.

The Shivans tracked several ships through space/subspace, they may have detected something during the T/V war, they may have the capabilities to induce supernovas! What can't they do?! Also, funny you say that we didn't know about shivan ships in the nebula, because the shivans seemed to have no dificulty in finding GTVA ones!

Either way the Ancients are gone. From "We will soon be gone" to "the shivans may have been the cause for the destruction of the Ancients" all points to it. The Shivans have killed directly or indirectly every Ancient in existance.