[Centrixo]

so called human race is actually called 'Homo sapiens' and the vasudan race are called 'Vāsudeva'.
so called Shivan race is called 'Mahadeva' and the ancients is 'anciens'.

anyway, the reason why bosh couldnt be detected probably because he was a part of the GTA just before the GTVA and BETAC came to force, i think he knows full well of ship and fighter scanner capability, if you think a bit it isnt hard to go around gathering data inconspicuously as an adimral of any sorts.
command knew full well of what the adimral knows and thinks, reason why the NTF was defeated in the first place after 18 months.

[TrashMan]

I still say they couldn't have gotten them all..

Teh ancient monologues are jsut that - a monologue of some ancinet chick talking to herself. One of the last ones accoring to her. But she is from the group that retreated to Altair, so knowing for certain that no one else escaped or hid is not possible for her, especially given the size of their empire.

However, I think she refers to the "end of their civilization". Wether or not some ancients surive, their civilization is effectivly destryed - all of their cities, factories, all of their achivements - gone. A handfull of survivors on some remote planet could never rebuilt it, not to what it once was....

[Mobius]

We don't know if that Ancient was a female. The voice isn't enough.


The Ancients might have developed stealth technologies, they fought many other civilizations. Just make some space stations invisible to the radar...the Shivans don't remain in a system without a good reason. They thought the Ancients were gone but many Ancients survived and continued to develop technologies. They might have destroyed all the nodes taking to the system they lived in, surviving with what they could find.

[Ghostavo]

I still say they couldn't have gotten them all..

Teh ancient monologues are jsut that - a monologue of some ancinet chick talking to herself. One of the last ones accoring to her. But she is from the group that retreated to Altair, so knowing for certain that no one else escaped or hid is not possible for her, especially given the size of their empire.

However, I think she refers to the "end of their civilization". Wether or not some ancients surive, their civilization is effectivly destryed - all of their cities, factories, all of their achivements - gone. A handfull of survivors on some remote planet could never rebuilt it, not to what it once was....

And pray I tell what is the Reference Bible? A bunch of text that randomly formed the phrases "The Ancients Monologue tells a story parallel to the FreeSpace story.  It is the story of a race that was annihilated by the Shivans at an unspecified point in the very distant past."? V specifically says they were annihilated. Race, not empire, not their civilization.

Unless you mean V is lying to us, from the very beginning of FS to the end of FS2 and with out of the game references. I hope you know how unlikely that is.

We don't know if that Ancient was a female. The voice isn't enough.


The Ancients might have developed stealth technologies, they fought many other civilizations. Just make some space stations invisible to the radar...the Shivans don't remain in a system without a good reason. They thought the Ancients were gone but many Ancients survived and continued to develop technologies. They might have destroyed all the nodes taking to the system they lived in, surviving with what they could find.

Don't make me type repeatedly "race that was annihilated by the shivans".

[Centrixo]

i dont like your tone ghostavo, what side of the bed did you wake up on?

[Ghostavo]

The left side.

I apologise if I came on a bit agressive but it's a bit annoying people will deviate from what is repeatedly said in the game and in the reference bible and say "but they may have been able to do <insert random stuff> to avoid the shivans and still be alive!!!".

[Mobius]

i dont like your tone ghostavo, what side of the bed did you wake up on?

Snail has a rival now.

The left side.

 

I apologise if I came on a bit agressive but it's a bit annoying people will deviate from what is repeatedly said in the game and in the reference bible and say "but they may have been able to do <insert random stuff> to avoid the shivans and still be alive!!!".

Mah. The Ancients are supposed not to be completely destroyed. V planned something about them for FS3 or not?

Don't make me type repeatedly "race that was annihilated by the shivans".

That's what the GTVA thinks.

[Ghostavo]

i dont like your tone ghostavo, what side of the bed did you wake up on?

Snail has a rival now.

The left side.

 

I apologise if I came on a bit agressive but it's a bit annoying people will deviate from what is repeatedly said in the game and in the reference bible and say "but they may have been able to do <insert random stuff> to avoid the shivans and still be alive!!!".

Mah. The Ancients are supposed not to be completely destroyed. V planned something about them for FS3 or not?

Don't make me type repeatedly "race that was annihilated by the shivans".

That's what the GTVA thinks.

You do know that that "race that was annihilated by the shivans" bit is from the Reference Bible which is what V thinks, right? It's the plot!

Also regarding what the had planned for FS3 with the Ancients, if they had, it would probably be in the same lines as FS2. Do we see Ancients in FS2? No, we see relics.

[Mobius]

I know that but pre-Capella GTVA has poor infos regarding the Ancients. Note that many things were discovered by the NTF first, which means that not all the artifacts have been found. Also, many informations are highly classified.

[Ghostavo]

I know that but pre-Capella GTVA has poor infos regarding the Ancients. Note that many things were discovered by the NTF first, which means that not all the artifacts have been found. Also, many informations are highly classified.

What does V have to do with an entity within their created universe? It's V wrote the Reference Bible, not the GTVA.

[Mobius]

Think what do you want. I'm not here to impose my opinion.

[AlphaOne]

quite true it sais a race that was anihalated by the shivans i have no arguement here nut from what perspective is it said? Form the perspective of a shivan,vasudan,terran,or ancient?? The fact of the matter is that the ancients as far as i can remember from some texts  expande in the entire galaxi and there are references that they expanded beyond. Now you can argue all you want but a race that has expanded and entire galaxi can not be exterminated. Sure if you have several hundred of billions inhabiting a galaxi and by the end of the war there are only thousands or millions left then you could say that the respective race was obliterated or exterminated.

The fact is that the ancients are considered exterminated simply because there are no evidence of them beeing around in this corner of the galaxi for a very very long time but some a hand full of them could of easyly escaped or survided. Even if the shivans wanted to exterminate every last living ancient it would of been an imposible task even for them. I mean it would of taken them tens of thousand of years. rememebr you have bilions of stars in just one galaxy. While i dont argue that a very long and savage war must of raged on in order to make them extinct at least to terrans and vasudans total extermination would prove imposible.

[Ghostavo]

quite true it sais a race that was anihalated by the shivans i have no arguement here nut from what perspective is it said? Form the perspective of a shivan,vasudan,terran,or ancient?? The fact of the matter is that the ancients as far as i can remember from some texts  expande in the entire galaxi and there are references that they expanded beyond. Now you can argue all you want but a race that has expanded and entire galaxi can not be exterminated. Sure if you have several hundred of billions inhabiting a galaxi and by the end of the war there are only thousands or millions left then you could say that the respective race was obliterated or exterminated.

The fact is that the ancients are considered exterminated simply because there are no evidence of them beeing around in this corner of the galaxi for a very very long time but some a hand full of them could of easyly escaped or survided. Even if the shivans wanted to exterminate every last living ancient it would of been an imposible task even for them. I mean it would of taken them tens of thousand of years. rememebr you have bilions of stars in just one galaxy. While i dont argue that a very long and savage war must of raged on in order to make them extinct at least to terrans and vasudans total extermination would prove imposible.

For the last time, it's from V's perspective! It's the bloody reference bible!

Also, if a race survives, you can't say that race was annihilated.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annihilation

the state of being annihilated; extinction; destruction

[NGTM-1R]

Perhaps to be an ass about it, but killing the Ancients as a race might not necessarily kill their civilization.

Considering the extents of their conquests the possiblity of an assimilated or slave race surviving can't be overlooked. (I think that was vaguely implied about the Vasudans?)

I also have my suspicions that annihilating the Shivans as a race might not kill them, but those are rather more sinister.

[phatosealpha]

The shield point, rather obviously, is worthless.  Consider:  "If Terrans are from truespace, why make FTL drives that don't work in truespace?"  The answer is simply that they can't.  It's a simple mistake to wonder why the shivans didn't do something when you can't be certain such a thing is even possible.

Given that Terran and Vasudan ships function perfectly well in subspace - nearly identically, save for shields, in fact - it seems rather obvious that effective design in subspace and effective design in realspace are extremely similar.  In fact, we don't see a single ship that performs any differently in subspace then it does in realspace.  A fast realspace interceptor is a fast subspace interceptor, and a zero point energy cannon that blows you up in realspace blows you up just as well in subspace.  Given that, a subspace born race would certainly make ships that function similarly in armament and design - the principles of effective weapons and mobility hold as true in subspace and realspace. 

and in english that means?...

More simply:
 A: It's pointless to use "The shivans didn't build a shield that works in subspace" as an arguement against shivans being from subspace unless you know for sure that it's even possible to do so.
B:  Given that we see in the end of FS1 that ships perform in subspace exactly how they do outside of it, one can pretty much conclude that a good performing ship in subspace and a good performing ship outside of it are essentially the same thing.  As such, we would reasonably expect similarities between a subspace race's ship designs and a realspace race's ship designs.

Both were counterpoints to a post above.


At any rate, it's not be suprise to me that the shivan's were able to annihilate the ancients.  Like I said, 60 years of peace and rebuilding with all their non-homeworld colonies available, and the GTVA still can't get enough argon to properly build Prometheus cannons.  Make that no years of peace and lots of being actively hunted by a superior race - well, those shortages become less inconvienient, and more fatal.

[Flipside]

Well, the shields in subspace could mean many things, most races are best adapted to fighting in their own particular 'niche', so if the Shivans were evolved from Subspace, they would have developed other defensive technologies etc, I find it hard to accept that the Shivans 'Achilles heel' would be the environment they evolved in. It's like saying a human fighting in a diving suit is better off than a human fighting on dry land. There may be certain advantages to being underwater, but, compared to the creatures that evolved there, Divers are clumsy, slow and, for want of a better word, 'noobish'. There's never been any mention of planets, stars or anything else in subspace upon which the Shivans could evolve, and if they evolved in the subspace 'ether' then it only strengthens the former argument.

I can accept that Shivans are very sensitive to Subspace, I can even accept that they patrol, or even spend a great deal of time in subspace, I just struggle with the whole 'evolved' thing.

[phatosealpha]

I'm not arguing that it necessarily happened that way, merely that the arguments stated were very poorly constructed.

As for the former, I might suggest two counter would be along these lines:  Humans existed on land, and and less agile underwater then on land.  However, if they were to spend a few millenniums fighting a race of intelligent sharks underwater, with very little combat on land, might it not be reasonable to expect our fighting machinery to be developed primarily for fighting underwater?

The second counter would also be along those lines:  Human may be more agile on land then underwater, but submarines most definitely are not.  Our land based nature doesn't carry over into our designs made for alternative environments.  The Lucifer is certainly used by the shivans exclusively for real space combat - they never initiate an attack in subspace, in all of FSdom - so if they were Subspace born, the Lucifer and the ships we see may be their equivalent of submarines.

Given the rather unpleasant side effects of any combat we see take place in subspace, it would certainly make sense for a race from there to not want to fight there, just as people from New York would rather any wars they take part in occur somewhere other then New York.  Since the Shivans are also obviously very aggressive, wouldn't it make sense for their ships to be designed for the purpose we see them used for - offensive fighting against real space races in real space?



Now mind you, I'm not sold on the idea of them being from subspace myself, but that's primarily because I don't see all that much evidence that seriously supports it.




Ah right:  One other thing, the "American can't even find Osama in a cave" analogy.  Technology considerations aside, it's important two remember two fundamental differences between the two situations.  1, Osama, even in an uncomfortable cave, has a few basic neccessities reliably provided.  He may not have Coke, but he does have air - something which the ancients couldn't be so assured of.  2, More importantly, Osama still has supply lines.  He's not setting up a self sufficient society in that cave, just hiding out and sending people to get supplies when and where he can from the rest of society.  Society as a whole still exists, and while he may be exiled, there are still ways of getting food, medicine, weapons, whatever from society as a whole.  It isn't neccessairly easy to tell the AQ agent buying food to take back to the cave from the rest of the customers at the local food market.  The ancients, by comparison, have no market to sneak into.  It's been blown to hell.

[TrashMan]

For the last time, it's from V's perspective! It's the bloody reference bible!

Also, if a race survives, you can't say that race was annihilated.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annihilation

the state of being annihilated; extinction; destruction

You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over.

First of all, maby [V] didn't ckeck the dictionary. God knows they are many textual errors in the documnets, even references to non-existing weapons and stuff. There's no way you can be sure that whoever wrote the reference bible didn't make a mistake OR simply used a wrong word. You see that even we can now debate what one means with the phrase "anihilated civilisation" or "anihilated race"..

It's simply far too unlikely for a huge galactic empire to be completely and utterly destroyed to the last man and woman.

So just relax and take it easy, K..

[Snail]

I've always thought the Vasudans were ancients.

[Ghostavo]

For the last time, it's from V's perspective! It's the bloody reference bible!

Also, if a race survives, you can't say that race was annihilated.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annihilation

the state of being annihilated; extinction; destruction

You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over.

First of all, maby [V] didn't ckeck the dictionary. God knows they are many textual errors in the documnets, even references to non-existing weapons and stuff. There's no way you can be sure that whoever wrote the reference bible didn't make a mistake OR simply used a wrong word. You see that even we can now debate what one means with the phrase "anihilated civilisation" or "anihilated race"..

It's simply far too unlikely for a huge galactic empire to be completely and utterly destroyed to the last man and woman.

So just relax and take it easy, K..

Very well, then give me a shred of evidence that points to the Ancients survival. Something that says "the Ancients are out there waiting" or "one day we will come back" something like that.

All you have is "they had this huge galactic empire, they couldn't be possibly have been totally destroyed!" when you don't even know the extent of their empire. It could have been only a bit beyond what the GTVA is or spawning 3 billion galaxies, we don't know. Also regarding what may or may not be possible, you have to acknowledge that this as a game won't follow some cases of logic. It may not be possible in reality, but this is a game. WHAT we know is that the reference bible, which unlike jehova's witness I can prove it's creator and intent, says they were annihilated (even by your odd definition of annihilated).

On another note, what would be a stronger case for the Shivans as destroyers, that they destroyed a civilization until all that was left was some worlds filled with Ancients, or that they completly and utterly destroyed (or according to the dictionary, annihilated) an entire race?

EDIT:
Funnily enough, we can also say that the Ancients destroyed some species.

And we saw other advanced life.  And we subdued it or we crushed it. 
In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution.  On a similar but slower path.

If the Ancients can do it, I don't see much of a difference to the Shivans doing it on a larger scale.