Author Topic: Campaign is not very smart.  (Read 12582 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
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Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations.

Funny that. None of them are jumping out yet the scientists are detecting a subspace field from them.

What about that green ripply field they made with their 4 claws? That's a subspace emitter/riftmaker of some kind.


You mean the subspace field that they generate only 20 minutes after that briefing? Yep, that's great proof that you can't take subspace readings from something you can't see. :rolleyes:

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I'd guess that jump nodes and standard jumping are vey different, given that nodes are fixed and stable, so they ought to give SOME stable readings.


But that does disprove your point that you can't read anything about subspace without an open jump point, doesn't it?

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Beleth jumping from the other side of hte system to point B (either to attack something at point B, like the Phoenicia or to launch fighters and prepare) and THEN proceeding to point C (Capella node).

What the **** are you on about? What does that even have to do with the subject under discussion? We weren't talking about the Beleth. We were talking about the other Shivan ships mentioned in that mission.

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You have to prove there we no other plausable destinations for the Beleth in order for the educated guess theory to havy any sense. All I have top do is give other posibilites.

Wrong! I don't need to prove that there weren't any other plausible destinations. I only need to prove that Command might have thought that there weren't any other plausible destinations and therefore took a guess. You can talk about the Phonecia all you like but the fact it that it's quite possible that Command didn't consider it a likely target.
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Don't mind me, I'm just stirring the pot. :)


Here's a point I thought up after posting last time that I found rather interesting. We only ever see subspace tracking used 4 times in total AFAIK.

...

So what if subspace tracking only works when you have a subspace tracking capable ship at both endpoints?
That would be pretty useless IMHO.  Anyway...

1) I don't think there were GTVA ships at the Sirius node.  Command pulled the blockade, remember.

2) If Shivans track ships through subspace the same way Terrans and Vasudans do, then I have a counterexample.  The Lucifer tracked the Taranis to Tombaugh Installation, and we can probably assume there were no Shivans there before the Lucifer showed up.


Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?
I'm not sure I understand your wording, but here are two interesting incidents:

1) Doomsday (FS1): The Lucifer sends fighters and bombers to attack the Galatea before eventually jumping there itself;

2) A Failure to Communicate (FS1): The Lucifer jumps out after nuking the installation, but still sends fighters to attack the communications terminal.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
That would be pretty useless IMHO.  Anyway...

Notice that subspace tracking in FS2 is pretty useless. The GTVA rarely manages to get any kind of advantage from it at all.

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1) I don't think there were GTVA ships at the Sirius node.  Command pulled the blockade, remember.

We don't know when Command pulls the blockade. It's worth noting that The Romans Blunder was originally designed as a red alert mission so it's likely that :v:'s intent is that the Iceni jumps straight from its location in The Place of Chariots.
 Now if that is the case Command probably were pulling the blockade at the exact same time as they were telling Bosch there was no way they would do that. There was no time for the Iceni to jump out, hold secret negotiations with command and then head to the node. So there probably would have been ships at the node when Bosch jumped out. They just weren't there when the player jumped in.

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2) If Shivans track ships through subspace the same way Terrans and Vasudans do, then I have a counterexample.  The Lucifer tracked the Taranis to Tombaugh Installation, and we can probably assume there were no Shivans there before the Lucifer showed up.

The Shivans use their own system of subspace tracking. It could work on completely different principles from the Ancient-based version which the GTVA have. Hell even if the Ancient system didn't require a ship at both ends that doesn't mean the GTVA were able to duplicate it perfectly.

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Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?

I'm not sure I understand your wording, but here are two interesting incidents:

1) Doomsday (FS1): The Lucifer sends fighters and bombers to attack the Galatea before eventually jumping there itself;

2) A Failure to Communicate (FS1): The Lucifer jumps out after nuking the installation, but still sends fighters to attack the communications terminal.

If you read the rest of the thread you'll see I'm on about the Shivans jumping out from a battle so that they can launch a fighter screen for when they re-enter a battle. The Shivans never did anything like that.

I don't see any good reason why they shouldn't but Trashman's entire argument is based upon the premise that the Shivans are such xenophobes that they'd sit there and take it from the Colossus rather than do a pretty similar manoeuvre to the one he claims the other Shivans might have done.

So thanks for butting in and stopping me make him disprove his own theory. :p
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Offline brandx0

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up in this thread yet, but I'd like to note that proving your point in an argument is very different from disproving the other guys.

On the one hand, yes some of the arguments towards the possibility of subspace tracking have been debunked, the other side of the argument has to step it up a notch and prove that subspace tracking ISN'T used or possible.  C'mon guys, I know its the internet, but step it up. 
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I'd guess that jump nodes and standard jumping are vey different, given that nodes are fixed and stable, so they ought to give SOME stable readings.


But that does disprove your point that you can't read anything about subspace without an open jump point, doesn't it?


Not really, since inter-system and intra-system jump are way different.
Like I siad, jump nodes have fixed points, and thus those fixed points have to be detectable in some way.
IMHO:
Standard jumping has no fixed ending - it like an endless number of possible micro jump-nodes. Scanning them all would be impossible (practicly infinite ammount of data to process).

AFAIK, during a normal jump you set your destination point during the jump, you cna't change it mid-jump, thus scannin the opening while a ships is jumping should by any logic give you an insight to where it is going...


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What the **** are you on about? What does that even have to do with the subject under discussion? We weren't talking about the Beleth. We were talking about the other Shivan ships mentioned in that mission.

We were talking about shivan ships in general, and Beleth is one of them...

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You have to prove there we no other plausable destinations for the Beleth in order for the educated guess theory to havy any sense. All I have top do is give other posibilites.

Wrong! I don't need to prove that there weren't any other plausible destinations. I only need to prove that Command might have thought that there weren't any other plausible destinations and therefore took a guess. You can talk about the Phonecia all you like but the fact it that it's quite possible that Command didn't consider it a likely target.

You want to prove what a fictional charachter might have thought? [\b]Do you even realise how absurd that is?

How hard is to understant that you can't say for certain a ship will go to point B unless you're tracking it... especially if there are other logical places where it could go. Command was sure - that's not guesswork (well, not unless Command is even dumber than it appears).
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 04:59:19 am by TrashMan »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I'm not even going to bother replying until you figure out how to use the quote tags properly. :p

I'm not sure if this has been brought up in this thread yet, but I'd like to note that proving your point in an argument is very different from disproving the other guys.

On the one hand, yes some of the arguments towards the possibility of subspace tracking have been debunked, the other side of the argument has to step it up a notch and prove that subspace tracking ISN'T used or possible.  C'mon guys, I know its the internet, but step it up.

I've pointed that fact out several times in fact. My point is not to say that subspace tracking could have been used at other points in the game. It's to point out that it can't be proved one way or the other if it was used or not.

This entire argument started over whether Command was stupid to be worried about killing the Sathanas. Arguments based on "But command could have tracked them" are pointless if there is any doubt as to whether or not they could have. So until Trashman can conclusively prove that they could have Command weren't dumb at all (At least not about this).
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.

Moreso, the Lucifer was only tracked using Ancient technology that was designed to track it (or some similar shielded vessel); there's no reason to assume that the GTVA has mastered that technology for tracking all possible Shivan craft (particularly given the new variety and technological level of FS2 Shivans vessels versus FS1) opposed to simply reusing the Ancients specific work  Plus, the Lucifer was a rather unique vessel, and there's no way of knowing whether its unique characteristics were what allowed the Ancients to track it.

Then how can the Terrans track the Belisarius? Are you implying that the GTVA developed subspace tracking on their own?

I'm implying that GTVA technology is easier to track than Shivan, what with it being less sophisticated and better 'known'. :)  I.e. that they could use the Ancient technology for tracking the Lucifer specifically and adapt it to Terran/Vasudan jumpdrives but not necessarily the more enigmatic Shivan technology.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I'm not even going to bother replying until you figure out how to use the quote tags properly. :p

Way to avoid the issue. :yes: Yer slippin... :P
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Offline Desert Tyrant

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Long-Range sensors never seem to pick up things. In ST, it was said there were 2 Aten cruisers though when you begin the mission there are actually 4.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Silent Threat is fully canon. Nothing you can come up with, or the Silent Threat: Reborn team, can come up with that can overpower any information in any of the official games.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I am starting a new thread. It will be called STOP COMMITING WANTON ACTS OF SACRILEGE. Look for it in this board.