Author Topic: Campaign is not very smart.  (Read 12586 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Ahem... Wans't te blockade set at the Gamma-Draconis side of the node? When you jump in the Phoenicia is the only ship left and the sath jumps trought the node to Capella and you follow after it a few minutes later...
I recall no blockade from the Capella side of the node or surely the Collie would be part of it..

Quote
The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus

Wrong on both counts. There was a blockade in Gamma Draconis though. It is destroyed before Bearbaiting not High Noon

1. The GTVA tracked the Lucifer, so I fail to see why they couldn't track other shivan ships. After all, they use subspace they same way we do.


Lucifer != Sathanas. For a start the Sathanas may be newer (by up to 8000 years on some estimates). The Sathanas doesn't have the five rector subsystems (which may make tracking easier). And the Lucifer was only canonically tracked during an intersystem jump. I don't see any proof that the Lucifer was ever tracked during an intrasystem jump at all.
 
Quote
2. The Collie could persue, and what other ship could join in is unknown, as we don't know all the ships in Capella.

Exactly my point. We don't have any proof whatsoever that there is anything else left in Capella other than the Colossus and the Psamtik. And the Colossus would still have to recharge its jump engines before it could follow.


Quote
My point? Colossuss waits in Capella with jump dirves charged, Sath jump in and has to re-charge them. Thus, Collie is ready for a persuit and doens't need to wait for drives to charge.


My point. That is complete bollocks which I disproved earlier in the thread. The quote above together with the positioning of the Sathanas in High Noon shows that the Colossus jumped in to attack the Sathanas and not the other way around.

Quote
And just how long would it take to re-ssuply a ships in FS2? If the Sath can traverse 3 systems in a matter of hours, so can a freighter/fighter.
Capella being a pupulated system would surely have some fighters/bombers stationed on the planet.
Just count the number of fighter planes on Earth today - tens of thousands. I'm sure Capella had at least a 100.

If Capella can station ships somewhere other than a capship why would they bother resupplying the Colossus in the first place? Just launch everything from where ever they have it?

Simple answer is that they don't do that.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Command is utterly dumb. If the Collie was in Capella why wasn't it part of the blockade? With him there the Sath wouldn' have survived (especially since the player relieves the sath of a few beam cannons)

***

AFAIK - a ship selects it's destination before the jump and then the jump drives "create" a opening. By scanning that opening one can detect where a ship will go.
and GTVA does track shivan ships - remeber the Deamon that jumps in after the Sath leaves? Command informs you it's coming your way and they couldn't possibly know that unless they were tracking him.

***

 Are you sure the Collie jumped in and that it wasn't waiting there? Besides, by the time he and the sath actually close the distance and start to duke it out a whole fleet can re-charge it's jump drives....
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Command is utterly dumb. If the Collie was in Capella why wasn't it part of the blockade? With him there the Sath wouldn' have survived (especially since the player relieves the sath of a few beam cannons)


It depends on briefing you're actually getting. If you destroy all the forward beams you never hear about a second blockade.

But yeah I tend to agree. Wouldn't have made for a good mission though. Not that High Noon is a great mission anyway.

Quote
AFAIK - a ship selects it's destination before the jump and then the jump drives "create" a opening. By scanning that opening one can detect where a ship will go.

Complete conjecture. There's no proof of that. I tend to suspect it is something like that but there's no proof that it's not done in some other way.

Quote
and GTVA does track shivan ships - remeber the Deamon that jumps in after the Sath leaves? Command informs you it's coming your way and they couldn't possibly know that unless they were tracking him.


Quote
Gamma Draconis is a remote, uninhabited system discovered shortly before the outbreak of the Great War. The system has no planets and no viable resources.

Where the **** else was it going to go? :p The game never says that they've tracked the Beleth and in fact if you look at the mission in question there's a lot of evidence that it wasn't subspace tracking responsible for that.

Quote
Well done, Alpha. The Thebes will be in system momentarily to secure the node. Rearm and repair quickly. More enemy warships are inbound. Gamma wing deployed.

Sent when the Sathanas departs. If this message is an indication of subspace tracking it's a pretty bad one. Only the Beleth ever arrives! Seems more likely that more warships were present and command guessed that they would jump to the node.

Quote
Alpha wing just resolved a tactical engagement, Thebes. Recon has sited a Demon-class destroyer, designation Beleth. The warship will be upon us momentarily.

Note no word of tracking and that it was recon who spotted it. Recon is unlikely to be capships so unless you're saying fighters have subspace tracking it seems unlikely that tracking is at work here

Quote
A Demon-class destroyer has jumped in. Command is well-informed.

Maybe I'm being picky but how is command well informed for being able to read the coordinates off a subspace tracking device? Now if they have taken a guess that when the Beleth jumped it would be heading to that location I'd say it qualifies a lot better.


Quote
Are you sure the Collie jumped in and that it wasn't waiting there? Besides, by the time he and the sath actually close the distance and start to duke it out a whole fleet can re-charge it's jump drives....

Cause dumb as Command are, deliberately jumping the Colossus within sight of the blockade but far away enough to not be able to fire it's guns is a whole quantum level of stupidity above anything else we've seen from them.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Command is utterly dumb. If the Collie was in Capella why wasn't it part of the blockade? With him there the Sath wouldn' have survived (especially since the player relieves the sath of a few beam cannons)

Because command did not want to risk its most powerful, valuable warship until absolutely necessary to stop the Sathanas.  Hell, the Colossus only defeated the Sathanas thanks to the efforts of countless warships (in the blockade), and the player damaging its beam turrets.

Also, if the Beleth was observed escorting the Sathanas, then it stands to reason it'd arrive more or less with it.

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Quote
Pilots, the NTC Alba has run our blockade of the Capella jump node. We are tracking the vessel to your rallying point. The Alba will emerge from subspace momentarily.
Yarr.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
GD is a big system.
Just by observation there's no way you can tell where the ship will jump. Who knows where the Beleth could have gone too - it's not like there weren't any GTVA ship left in GD for it to pray upon.

Besides, who sez subspace tracking requires massive sensors or uber-tech. It's probably quite simple, just the principles behind it had to be understood first. Recon flight can see a warship jumping, but without tracking there's no way they can tell where it will jump to. Command was SURE where it will go. They didn't say it might jump in, they said it WILL jump in.


Quote
Because command did not want to risk its most powerful, valuable warship until absolutely necessary to stop the Sathanas.  Hell, the Colossus only defeated the Sathanas thanks to the efforts of countless warships (in the blockade), and the player damaging its beam turrets.[\quote]

Command would know the status of hte Sath's beams long before it arrived in Capella (given that it takes 10-15 minutes for node travel). That's more than enough time to remove the blockade if it's too strong or to bring in the Colossuss.
Either way, concetrated firepower is logicly and tacticly more sound than spreading your forces - especially is the Sath is as big as a threat as some claimed command thought it was.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
GD is a big system.
Just by observation there's no way you can tell where the ship will jump. Who knows where the Beleth could have gone too - it's not like there weren't any GTVA ship left in GD for it to pray upon.


We have no firm data on either numbers nor disposition of GTVA forces in the system. The only ships we know are present for certain are the Psamtik, Thebes and Phonecia (presuming it lived!) IIRC.

Quote
Besides, who sez subspace tracking requires massive sensors or uber-tech. It's probably quite simple, just the principles behind it had to be understood first. Recon flight can see a warship jumping, but without tracking there's no way they can tell where it will jump to. Command was SURE where it will go. They didn't say it might jump in, they said it WILL jump in.

They also said other warships would jump in. What happened to them? If Command did subspace track the Beleth why did they screw up with the others?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
What other warships?
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Command would know the status of hte Sath's beams long before it arrived in Capella (given that it takes 10-15 minutes for node travel). That's more than enough time to remove the blockade if it's too strong or to bring in the Colossuss.
Either way, concetrated firepower is logicly and tacticly more sound than spreading your forces - especially is the Sath is as big as a threat as some claimed command thought it was.

They did concentrate their firepower.  That's what a blockade is, remember?  Or are you suggesting they risk the Colossus first?  What happens if the Sathanas destroys the Colossus?

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
What other warships?

The ones in the quote above.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Quote
They did concentrate their firepower.  That's what a blockade is, remember?  Or are you suggesting they risk the Colossus first?  What happens if the Sathanas destroys the Colossus?[\quote]

If they did the Sath would have recived some[\i] damage. It doesn't stop after a fight, just continues on. So basicly, he went trough 2 blockades within 20 minutes and sustained NO damage whatsoever... You can't really repair a hull of something that big in 20 minutes...


Quote
The ones in the quote above. [\quote]

The only one specificly mentioned in the Beleth.

If you're refering to this:
"Well done, Alpha. The Thebes will be in system momentarily to secure the node. Rearm and repair quickly. More enemy warships are inbound. Gamma wing deployed."

It can very well mean inbound to allied positionswithin the system, not this specific one. It is also possible other enemy warship will arrive later (after you departed)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 10:40:08 am by TrashMan »
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
How do you explain the fact that they still haven't arrived 5 minutes later then? A subspace jump does not take 5 minutes. Yet the other ships still haven't arrived well after the Beleth is toasted.

You're contradicting your earlier argument Trashman. If as you say that message refers to ships that would arrive after you have departed that is conclusive proof that Command knew those ships were inbound without using subspace tracking. Which means that your argument that you have conclusive proof of subspace tracking of shivans in FS2 is also out of the window.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
It doesn't. That was one possible explanation..

the other one - the one you so conveniately ignored - it that they didn't jump to your position, but rather somewhere else in-system.

"Well done, Alpha. The Thebes will be in system momentarily to secure the node. Rearm and repair quickly. More enemy warships are inbound. Gamma wing deployed."  - this doesn't specify where tehy are headed. Could very well mean that multiple enemy warship have just entered GD and are moving against GTVA positions.

Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Except that is so ridiculous I didn't even think it needed explanation.

Why would the player give a damn about Shivan vessels leaping out to other locations? Surely the Beleth a large warship which according to you, command knows is headed directly for the player would be a much more important thing to notify the player of. Why would anyone at the node appreciate such a useless comment as "There are more enemy ships about but although we're subspace tracking them we're not going to tell you which ones are going to your location"

Regardless of that fact you can't prove that command didn't simply guess where the Beleth was going so your entire point is moot anyway.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • The Lightblue Ribbon
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I don't understand a thing in this mess but I can say just one thing:

Karajorma is right, and the others should abandon the discussion! :lol:

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
of course...  :doubt:

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • The Lightblue Ribbon
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Then tell me who is right :P

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Except that is so ridiculous I didn't even think it needed explanation.

Why would the player give a damn about Shivan vessels leaping out to other locations? Surely the Beleth a large warship which according to you, command knows is headed directly for the player would be a much more important thing to notify the player of. Why would anyone at the node appreciate such a useless comment as "There are more enemy ships about but although we're subspace tracking them we're not going to tell you which ones are going to your location"

Regardless of that fact you can't prove that command didn't simply guess where the Beleth was going so your entire point is moot anyway.

LOL! Who's skiping on the facts now?

Why would a player give a damn about other shivan vessels in the system? Indeed. Why would he give a damn about the defeat of the 6th fleet or the fact that the Collie destroyed the NTD Andronicus? Why would he give a damn about Bosh being intercepted at the portal?
Could it be...*gasp* situational awareness...you now, a bit more info that just what going on 3 feet from you?

And do you even listen to yourself? Command DID tell you the Beleth will jump in momentarily. They weren't guessing they knew.

So think of it this way - comamand informs the forces that more shivan warshipd have entred GD. At the point where you got that info they prolly don't know where they're heading yet.
As soon as recon traked the Beleth they tell you it's jumping to your position.

Redicolous? Hardly... Actually, I find your post redicolous...
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Redicolous? Hardly... Actually, I find your post redicolous...

Then you need to learn to spell it :p

Quote
Why would a player give a damn about other shivan vessels in the system? Indeed. Why would he give a damn about the defeat of the 6th fleet or the fact that the Collie destroyed the NTD Andronicus? Why would he give a damn about Bosh being intercepted at the portal?
Could it be...*gasp* situational awareness...you now, a bit more info that just what going on 3 feet from you?


Command briefings and other such messages however do not confuse the player about what is going on. There is a difference between situational awareness and screaming "Enemy warships are on the way! When they aren't on the way to the player at all."

Quote
And do you even listen to yourself? Command DID tell you the Beleth will jump in momentarily. They weren't guessing they knew.

As I said before you've got no proof that wasn't simply because there was no where else for the Beleth to go.

Quote
So think of it this way - comamand informs the forces that more shivan warshipd have entred GD. At the point where you got that info they prolly don't know where they're heading yet.
As soon as recon traked the Beleth they tell you it's jumping to your position.


That's one possible interpretation. An equally likely one is that they said more ships were on the way because they knew that shivan ships had arrived in GD and said the Beleth was on it's way as soon as it jumped out (While the rest of the ships stayed at the GD-Nebula node). If you're going to claim that the Beleth is definative proof of Command using subspace tracking on Shivan ships you need to prove that my scenario didn't happen.

You have to conclusively prove that the Beleth was subspace tracked. I only need prove that it could have been either subspace tracking or a guess to win this one. As I said before it's not my fault that you decided to get into an argument where you have to conclusively prove your points while I just have to give possibilities. So prove it. Or give up.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I think that subspace tracking is difficult during the GW, but later becomes commonplace. Remember, the Ancient cutscene says "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked."

This implies it is new information that they can be tracked, unless they were just stating the obvious. Or something.