Author Topic: Campaign is not very smart.  (Read 12635 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
That was an intersystem jump that was tracked in FS1 though. They could be a lot easier to track.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
22,000!

I think that subspace tracking is difficult during the GW, but later becomes commonplace. Remember, the Ancient cutscene says "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked."

This implies it is new information that they can be tracked, unless they were just stating the obvious. Or something.

It was from FS1, so we can't be sure.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Well it is not contradicted or supported in FS2 so it stands to reason it is still canon.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I don't doubt that the GTVA can subspace track GTVA ships. I don't doubt that they can track the Lucifer during an intersystem jump. My point is that there is no proof in either direction that this isn't the limit of what they can do with it.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

The tracking tech is there for some time, shivan electronics and engines have been studied by the GTVA also for some time. If they can track NTF ships why would tehy have troublew with shivan ones?

Look how long it took them to track and target shivan ships on radar. The GTVA retrofitted Dragons and Maras' which are stated as the best shivan craft..and you can't do that without a good knowledge of shivan tech.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

Why should they?

The Shivans are masters of subspace. Why shouldn't they be able to stop more primitive species from being able to track their ships?

And don't bring up the Lucifer as it's 32 years since they tracked it, the shivans had no reason to think the GTVA had the tech to track it and it may have been an 8000 year old design anyway.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Well it is not contradicted or supported in FS2 so it stands to reason it is still canon.

It's not contradicted because Ancients are mentioned in FS2 only a few times, and only by Terrans.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
It's not contradicted because Ancients are mentioned in FS2 only a few times, and only by Terrans.

What is meant by 'only by Terrans?'

What is not contradicted in FS2 is still canon since it's information in FS1, which is still a part of the same universe.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

Why should they?

The Shivans are masters of subspace. Why shouldn't they be able to stop more primitive species from being able to track their ships?

And don't bring up the Lucifer as it's 32 years since they tracked it, the shivans had no reason to think the GTVA had the tech to track it and it may have been an 8000 year old design anyway.

Moreso, the Lucifer was only tracked using Ancient technology that was designed to track it (or some similar shielded vessel); there's no reason to assume that the GTVA has mastered that technology for tracking all possible Shivan craft (particularly given the new variety and technological level of FS2 Shivans vessels versus FS1) opposed to simply reusing the Ancients specific work  Plus, the Lucifer was a rather unique vessel, and there's no way of knowing whether its unique characteristics were what allowed the Ancients to track it.

 

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

Why should they?

The Shivans are masters of subspace. Why shouldn't they be able to stop more primitive species from being able to track their ships?

And don't bring up the Lucifer as it's 32 years since they tracked it, the shivans had no reason to think the GTVA had the tech to track it and it may have been an 8000 year old design anyway.

A master of juggling still has to make the balls fly through the air. Again, there's no evidence as to how jump tracking works. It could work simply by looking at the warp or by tracking the ship itself. If it's the former then any ship can be tracked if something is there to observe it leaving. If it's the latter it's trickier and possibly can be guarded against.


Moreso, the Lucifer was only tracked using Ancient technology that was designed to track it (or some similar shielded vessel); there's no reason to assume that the GTVA has mastered that technology for tracking all possible Shivan craft (particularly given the new variety and technological level of FS2 Shivans vessels versus FS1) opposed to simply reusing the Ancients specific work  Plus, the Lucifer was a rather unique vessel, and there's no way of knowing whether its unique characteristics were what allowed the Ancients to track it.

Then how can the Terrans track the Belisarius? Are you implying that the GTVA developed subspace tracking on their own?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
A master of juggling still has to make the balls fly through the air. Again, there's no evidence as to how jump tracking works. It could work simply by looking at the warp or by tracking the ship itself. If it's the former then any ship can be tracked if something is there to observe it leaving. If it's the latter it's trickier and possibly can be guarded against.

Here's a point I thought up after posting last time that I found rather interesting. We only ever see subspace tracking used 4 times in total AFAIK.

The Lucifer is tracked through subspace on the way to Earth. This was an intersystem jump and probably tracked something different from the others (after all who really needed tracking to know where the Lucifer was going? It was pretty obvious).

The NTCv Belisarius on the way to it's show down with the Psamtik.
The Iceni to the Sirius node in Deneb
The NTC Alba at the NTF Rallying point.

What's interesting is that although we know (or suspect) that there were GTVA ships present at the departure point in all 3 intrasystem jumps what no one seems to have considered is that there were GTVA ships at the destination points too. So what if subspace tracking only works when you have a subspace tracking capable ship at both endpoints?

Not only does that fit all the data it gives a very good explanation why Command couldn't simply say "Oh who cares if the Sathanas jumps. We'll just track it!" If it didn't happen to jump in right next to a terran ship capable of subspace tracking then it would be quite successfully hidden until the GTVA could find it.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Nah...the subspace rift on the exit point only opens exaclty before the ship arrives, not when it departs it's previous location.

Also, when a ship is comming it's allways command who tells you that (and it got that info from the ships near hte blockade). If the Psamtik could detect incoming ships why doesn't it inform you of that? It's the same in every other situation - you are never informed by a ship that's near you.

Also, the thing about the Beleth having no where else to go - that's pure rubbish. GD is a big system - it vcould have jumped anywhere, attacked any otehr GTVA ships in the system. OR it could have jumped on the other side of the system and start launching fihgter/bomber attacks - no need to come up close and personal without an abdundant fihgtercover.
You might also notice that it doesn't follow hte Sathanas - if you don't destroy it it will jmp out, but not at the node - thus it jumps somewhere else in the system.

you also might notice the working of the messages sent by command - there is no doubt or insecurity about where the Beleth will go. That's not guesswork.

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Maybe I'm being picky but how is command well informed for being able to read the coordinates off a subspace tracking device? Now if they have taken a guess that when the Beleth jumped it would be heading to that location I'd say it qualifies a lot better.

How does taking a guess qualify as being well informed? Getting a lot of accurate information (from any source) is being well-informed.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Maybe, just maybe, it's a very small possibility, that the Beleth was going to support the Sathanas? (note sarcasm) ::)

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Nah...the subspace rift on the exit point only opens exaclty before the ship arrives, not when it departs it's previous location.

Completely irrelevant to my point.

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Also, when a ship is comming it's allways command who tells you that (and it got that info from the ships near hte blockade). If the Psamtik could detect incoming ships why doesn't it inform you of that? It's the same in every other situation - you are never informed by a ship that's near you.


Who says that it is the Psamtik alone doing the detection though? Perhaps intrasystem tracking is reliant on having two ships and detecting the differences in subspace between them. It could work like this. A ship jumps out and command notifies all ships to go to active tracking mode. Command then detects the differences between all the locations it has ships and uses that to generate a vector for where it thinks the enemy ship is going.

It could easily be that if you don't have a ship within a set distance of the arrival location your readings simply aren't good enough and therefore tracking is useless. As the central node in the tracking net it would be Command who knew where the ship was going. The Psamtik's data would be completely useless on its own.

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Also, the thing about the Beleth having no where else to go - that's pure rubbish. GD is a big system - it vcould have jumped anywhere, attacked any otehr GTVA ships in the system. OR it could have jumped on the other side of the system and start launching fihgter/bomber attacks - no need to come up close and personal without an abdundant fihgtercover.

And now I use your own argument against you. When have we ever seen a Shivan vessel jump away in order to launch fighters? Your argument is that the Shivans are such xenophobes that the sathanas would never run away from a fight except to go to another one so why on Earth would they do something as unlikely as jumping away from a battle to launch fighter cover?

And if you're saying they'd do that, jumping away to repair beam cannons suddenly becomes a lot more likely doesn't it?

As for there being other places to go. Why? Why on Earth would Command have ships in GD that weren't guarding either node? They put everything they had into the blockades.

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You might also notice that it doesn't follow hte Sathanas - if you don't destroy it it will jmp out, but not at the node - thus it jumps somewhere else in the system.

Haven't got time to test that in game but from the looks of it in the mission file V just missed the centre of the node by about 700m. That should still be just within the jump node. The debriefing certainly speaks against your theory that it didn't jump to Capella. Look at the recommendation for the Beleth.

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Disabling the engines of the Beleth would keep it in system.


Seems like the Beleth isn't in system. Are you seriously telling me that command are telling you that it's returned to the nebula?

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you also might notice the working of the messages sent by command - there is no doubt or insecurity about where the Beleth will go. That's not guesswork.


Command frequently are certain about things that were ****ing idiotic to be certain about. Besides if as I said there is nowhere else to go they could be pretty certain that it was going there. It's you who keeps insisting that there were other places for it to go. There quite easily could have been nowhere else for it to go.

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How does taking a guess qualify as being well informed? Getting a lot of accurate information (from any source) is being well-informed.

But this wasn't a random-assed guess. You want to make out it was. But I'm saying that Command had logically figured out that there was nothing else of value to the Shivans in the system and that their only target of interest would be the Capella node. If that turned out to be true I would quite happily say that it was an example of Command being well informed.

The Vasudan sounded very impressed that Command had got it right. Reading data off of a subspace tracker is not impressive.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 10:39:53 am by karajorma »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Nah...the subspace rift on the exit point only opens exaclty before the ship arrives, not when it departs it's previous location.

Completely irrelevant to my point.

Quite relevant.
If the subspace rift opens only seconds before the ship arrives, then what use is the data from the ship at the arrival point. By the time it gets any data at all the enemy ships is allready there - you can tell visually.

Secodnly you onyl get informed of tracked ships when some of your forces are present at hte arrival point for quite logical reasons - becouse you're there. If command tracked a enemy ship and determined that it will emerge near Capella 3, but you're stationed near the Caplella node, why on earth would it tell you that, given that you won't attack it in that mission? 


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Also, the thing about the Beleth having no where else to go - that's pure rubbish. GD is a big system - it vcould have jumped anywhere, attacked any otehr GTVA ships in the system. OR it could have jumped on the other side of the system and start launching fihgter/bomber attacks - no need to come up close and personal without an abdundant fihgtercover.

And now I use your own argument against you. When have we ever seen a Shivan vessel jump away in order to launch fighters? Your argument is that the Shivans are such xenophobes that the sathanas would never run away from a fight except to go to another one so why on Earth would they do something as unlikely as jumping away from a battle to launch fighter cover?

And if you're saying they'd do that, jumping away to repair beam cannons suddenly becomes a lot more likely doesn't it?

As for there being other places to go. Why? Why on Earth would Command have ships in GD that weren't guarding either node? They put everything they had into the blockades.

1. Jumping from the node to point B, preparing for an attack and then proceeding to attack point C is very different from attacking point C, and then jumping out to point B before returing to C.
One is getting ready to conduct an attack, the other one is runnign away.

2. Sathanas broke trough the blockade - but that doesn't mean that every single ship is destroyed - some could have escaped - for instance the Phoenicia! Those surviving ships would be easy prey for the Beleth.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Quite relevant.
If the subspace rift opens only seconds before the ship arrives, then what use is the data from the ship at the arrival point. By the time it gets any data at all the enemy ships is allready there - you can tell visually.

Nope irrelevant. There are other kinds of effects on subspace beyond the opening of a jump hole. Who are you to say that there aren't minute changes in subspace just prior to the opening of a jump point? How can you possibly know that they can't be tracked?


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Secodnly you onyl get informed of tracked ships when some of your forces are present at hte arrival point for quite logical reasons - becouse you're there. If command tracked a enemy ship and determined that it will emerge near Capella 3, but you're stationed near the Caplella node, why on earth would it tell you that, given that you won't attack it in that mission?


Weren't you arguing about situational awareness a few posts back?


But lets ignore that and mention the point that apart from those 3 occasions pretty much every single other time that a ship jumps out and is later tracked down Command mentions recon as having done it. There isn't a single case in either game where Command mentions tracking a ship with subspace tracking where there weren't GTVA ships at the arrival location, even in cases where this would be incredibly useful. And I'm not talking about just in mission. I'm also talking about in debriefs and mission briefs too where they definitely would mention it.

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1. Jumping from the node to point B, preparing for an attack and then proceeding to attack point C is very different from attacking point C, and then jumping out to point B before returing to C.
One is getting ready to conduct an attack, the other one is runnign away.

And neither were things we ever saw the Shivans do.

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2. Sathanas broke trough the blockade - but that doesn't mean that every single ship is destroyed - some could have escaped - for instance the Phoenicia! Those surviving ships would be easy prey for the Beleth.

Poor example since the Phoenica gets killed about half the time. But again the Shivans have never shown much interest in picking off the stragglers. The only place the Beleth could have been expected to go was to Capella.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Quite relevant.
If the subspace rift opens only seconds before the ship arrives, then what use is the data from the ship at the arrival point. By the time it gets any data at all the enemy ships is allready there - you can tell visually.

Nope irrelevant. There are other kinds of effects on subspace beyond the opening of a jump hole. Who are you to say that there aren't minute changes in subspace just prior to the opening of a jump point? How can you possibly know that they can't be tracked?

Subspace is another dimension outside our space. I find it highly unlikely that you can see waht's ging in in there without having a "open fdoor2 so to speak..


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1. Jumping from the node to point B, preparing for an attack and then proceeding to attack point C is very different from attacking point C, and then jumping out to point B before returing to C.
One is getting ready to conduct an attack, the other one is runnign away.

And neither were things we ever saw the Shivans do.

Sez who? We seen a lot of time shivan fighter/bomber attacks with destroyers following eihter later or not at all (thus, they're hanging back)

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2. Sathanas broke trough the blockade - but that doesn't mean that every single ship is destroyed - some could have escaped - for instance the Phoenicia! Those surviving ships would be easy prey for the Beleth.

Poor example since the Phoenica gets killed about half the time. But again the Shivans have never shown much interest in picking off the stragglers. The only place the Beleth could have been expected to go was to Capella.

The Phoienicia can get destroyed becosue of the SEXP that triggers too late. It's clear that [V] meant for it to survive, so it IS a possible target for the Beleth. But regardless, you have no proof that there are no other ships beside it in the system.

Also, Shivans seem to be intent on killing everyone. They have shown that they are quite willing to attack anything that moves - from damaged/stranded ships to civilian transports..
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Offline Ace

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Nope irrelevant. There are other kinds of effects on subspace beyond the opening of a jump hole. Who are you to say that there aren't minute changes in subspace just prior to the opening of a jump point? How can you possibly know that they can't be tracked?

Subspace is another dimension outside our space. I find it highly unlikely that you can see waht's ging in in there without having a "open fdoor2 so to speak..
[/quote]

Remember that subspace tracking technology was developed by the Ancients... and right before they were annihilated.

It is interesting that effectively we had a group that was unable to stop the Shivans due to their shields, but still learned of a weakness (following them into subspace) but in the end were annihilated at the point that they knew how to fight them.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Subspace is another dimension outside our space. I find it highly unlikely that you can see waht's ging in in there without having a "open fdoor2 so to speak..

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Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations.

Funny that. None of them are jumping out yet the scientists are detecting a subspace field from them.

Actually, more simply, If you can't see anything from subspace except when a jump point is open you have to wonder how on Earth you find a new jump node?

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Sez who? We seen a lot of time shivan fighter/bomber attacks with destroyers following eihter later or not at all (thus, they're hanging back)


Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?
 
I never said Shivans didn't hang back. I said that we've never seen them leave a fight so that they can launch fighters.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
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Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations.

Funny that. None of them are jumping out yet the scientists are detecting a subspace field from them.

What about that green ripply field they made with their 4 claws? That's a subspace emitter/riftmaker of some kind.

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Actually, more simply, If you can't see anything from subspace except when a jump point is open you have to wonder how on Earth you find a new jump node?

I'd guess that jump nodes and standard jumping are vey different, given that nodes are fixed and stable, so they ought to give SOME stable readings.


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Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?
 I never said Shivans didn't hang back. I said that we've never seen them leave a fight so that they can launch fighters.

What are you on about? How can you leave a fight if you don't get inot it in the first place?
read carefully:

Beleth jumping from the other side of hte system to point B (either to attack something at point B, like the Phoenicia or to launch fighters and prepare) and THEN proceeding to point C (Capella node).

This is far different than jumping to hte node, fihgting, jumping somewhere else and then launchiing fihgters..


Wahtever, I belive it's time to use your own arguments against you:

You have to conclusively prove that the Beleth was subspace tracked. I only need prove that it could have been either subspace tracking or a guess to win this one. As I said before it's not my fault that you decided to get into an argument where you have to conclusively prove your points while I just have to give possibilities. So prove it. Or give up.

You have to prove there we no other plausable destinations for the Beleth in order for the educated guess theory to havy any sense. All I have top do is give other posibilites.
I belive I have done more than by proving other possible destinations for the Beleth existed  ;7

so...give up? :drevil:

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