Author Topic: Campaign is not very smart.  (Read 12569 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
nope, i didnt forget that, but capella is to this time really high traffic, much more military is there on the route as normaly.

Sorry but I don't buy that. Capella would not be business as usual at that time. What traffic there was would be heading straight to the EP and Vega nodes as fasts as it could. The fleet had been decimated. What resources there were would be concentrating for a strike against the Sathanas. Sure they could spread out and find it once the Shivans had jumped out but I don't buy that they'd spot them straight away.

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the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser


No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

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and the GTVA hadnt so much primitiv sensors like we today and only 4% of our sky are observed by telecopes, today.
i think we cant really compare our potentiality to observed our sun system with the potentiality to observed a sun system for the GTVA and, as far i can me remember, command say reallv often if any enemy ship jump in.


Command have access to your sensors though. They don't need anything else to detect incoming ships.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that space is vast. If the Sathanas tried to hide it would be much harder to find than you claim. Again I have to point at the Iceni. This time when it managed to get all the way to the Knossos portal without someone spotting it. Even if you buy the argument that command were allowing Bosch to escape it was a really paper thin cover if it's as easy to spot the Sathanas as you say.
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Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
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the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser


No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

It's got much greater mass than a Fenris, hasn't it? It may be faster, but that doesn't change the fact that it would take more power to move it around. But of course, in reality, any ship could accelerate to huge speeds eventually.

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Command have access to your sensors though. They don't need anything else to detect incoming ships.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that space is vast. If the Sathanas tried to hide it would be much harder to find than you claim. Again I have to point at the Iceni. This time when it managed to get all the way to the Knossos portal without someone spotting it. Even if you buy the argument that command were allowing Bosch to escape it was a really paper thin cover if it's as easy to spot the Sathanas as you say.

Your sensors only detect them once they start to exit subspace. Remember, in Surrender, Belisarius!, Command tracked the NTCv Belisarius to the location of the Psamptik. Also, Command was allowing him to escape. The Sathanas is a huge ship, likely with a huge energy signature,  The Iceni is much smaller, and designed with stealth, speed, etc. in mind. Even so, it probably could not have gotten through without GTVA interference. I doubt the allegiance of the alleged "rebels".

Whilst this is very true don't ships emit signals that can easily be picked up? (Radio Telescopes) Isn't it possible that, not only would every Allied ship in Capella be searching for such a signal, the technology is far more superior to what we have know?

If it were that easy to pick up a warship you'd have to question how Bosch managed to conceal the Iceni inside an asteroid without anyone detecting it straight away.

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Offline Mehrpack

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Sorry but I don't buy that. Capella would not be business as usual at that time. What traffic there was would be heading straight to the EP and Vega nodes as fasts as it could. The fleet had been decimated. What resources there were would be concentrating for a strike against the Sathanas. Sure they could spread out and find it once the Shivans had jumped out but I don't buy that they'd spot them straight away.

hi,
you dont need to buy it, its for free ;)

traffic is traffic, they have sensors and they have eyes.
its irrelevant if they try to escape or fly patrol, if they see a sathanas they called for help and run away so fast they can.

yes the fleet had taken damage in the civil war and in the first encouter of the shivans in the nebular.
but to this time, all remaining, not on their stations needed and necessary ships in the space of the GTVA, are or was at this time on the front.
so i think and if we look in the next missions, theres a lot of capital ships in the system.

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No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

not only the high-speed is important, the speedup is important too, to escape gravitiy.
if the speedup not high enough to hold against the gravitiy, so you get a problem.
but yes, if the values, comparte to it, the same, then it penterate gravitiy in the exactly way.
but i think theres are other problem too in the atmosphere, but im not really sure about the problem that it caused, i mean the hull-size.

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Command have access to your sensors though. They don't need anything else to detect incoming ships.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that space is vast. If the Sathanas tried to hide it would be much harder to find than you claim. Again I have to point at the Iceni. This time when it managed to get all the way to the Knossos portal without someone spotting it. Even if you buy the argument that command were allowing Bosch to escape it was a really paper thin cover if it's as easy to spot the Sathanas as you say.

sorry but thats like if you play blind cow, you know where the cow was, but then you dont have a glue where she go.
in the war you need the ability to track and fellow escaping enemies.
not only detecting.

yes i know that the space is a big place and that we today have many problems to find asteriods in your sun-system and that they need a minimal size before we can they detect.
and that our solarsystems have a diameter of 3 lightyears (this 3 lightyears are the gravity influence of our sun, if we left that influence then first we left really the sun-system).
but a space ships isnt a death asteriod and if you knowing the starting point, its eaiser to track as if you try to find in a chaotic system one little fuzz.

to the iceni: bosh know how the alliance scanners work and the tactics, so he know the white spots in the system and had can escape.
the other thing is, that he had spy`s on the ships and in important places, so that he gatherer intelligence informations, that him help to plan the next steps.
but shivan doesnt have the same advantages.
yes they have better sub-space engines and they have better sensors.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
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the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser


No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

It's got much greater mass than a Fenris, hasn't it? It may be faster, but that doesn't change the fact that it would take more power to move it around. But of course, in reality, any ship could accelerate to huge speeds eventually.

I mentioned that the Sathanas has higher acceleration than the Leviathan so I really don't know what point you're trying to make here.

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Your sensors only detect them once they start to exit subspace. Remember, in Surrender, Belisarius!, Command tracked the NTCv Belisarius to the location of the Psamptik.


A terran ship mind you. We never see them track a Shivan ship that way except for the Lucifer 32 years earlier. 

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Also, Command was allowing him to escape. The Sathanas is a huge ship, likely with a huge energy signature,  The Iceni is much smaller, and designed with stealth, speed, etc. in mind. Even so, it probably could not have gotten through without GTVA interference. I doubt the allegiance of the alleged "rebels".

You are assuming that the Sathanas isn't capable of silent running though. Who's to say it isn't? There's no point in the main campaign when the Shivans would have ever cared about anyone detecting the Sathanas. So we have no idea what their emissions are like when they want to be stealthed.

its irrelevant if they try to escape or fly patrol, if they see a sathanas they called for help and run away so fast they can.


Oh but it is relevent. I don't buy that the GTVA had the forces to patrol an entire system. Not after what the Sathanas did to the fleet. 

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yes the fleet had taken damage in the civil war and in the first encouter of the shivans in the nebular.
but to this time, all remaining, not on their stations needed and necessary ships in the space of the GTVA, are or was at this time on the front.
so i think and if we look in the next missions, theres a lot of capital ships in the system.


Where? There's the Psamtik and the Colossus and that's it. By time High Noon is set the Sathanas has twice destroyed GTVA blockades. I see no proof that there are other ships in the system at all.

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not only the high-speed is important, the speedup is important too, to escape gravitiy.
if the speedup not high enough to hold against the gravitiy, so you get a problem.
but yes, if the values, comparte to it, the same, then it penterate gravitiy in the exactly way.
but i think theres are other problem too in the atmosphere, but im not really sure about the problem that it caused, i mean the hull-size.

You've also missed the same point as Agent_Koopa did. The Sathanas does have higher acceleration than the leviathan regardless of it's size or mass. Did you think I wouldn't check the tables before making a flat out statement that the Sathanas was faster? :lol:


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in the war you need the ability to track and fellow escaping enemies. not only detecting.


True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

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yes i know that the space is a big place and that we today have many problems to find asteriods in your sun-system and that they need a minimal size before we can they detect.
and that our solarsystems have a diameter of 3 lightyears (this 3 lightyears are the gravity influence of our sun, if we left that influence then first we left really the sun-system).
but a space ships isnt a death asteriod and if you knowing the starting point, its eaiser to track as if you try to find in a chaotic system one little fuzz.


Again I don't buy it. Even if you claim the Sathanas is bigger than the Iceni then so is an Orion class destroyer yet the ones in The Sicilian Defense were located only by reconnaissance and not by subspace tracking despite the fact that they could have only entered the system by running the Capella node blockade. Command was very interested in following these ships and yet was only able to do it by means other than subspace tracking even though the systems of the Orion must be a lot better understood than those on the Sathanas.
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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Ahhhh Touche'
Can we just simply assume that Volition did not count a people taking such a detailed view on their universe and that the abilities or actions of these factions are sporadic. Whilst in detail it is confusing with many valid points these 'plot holes' allow the designers to have more variety when creating a mission.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I suspect that Volition did have a reason why they were so worried about the Sathanas in High Noon though. Whether we've hit on it or if it was changes\removed later we'll probably never know.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Which is definitely true... just think about comms between Alpha Centauri and Sol....

 

Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.


I mentioned that the Sathanas has higher acceleration than the Leviathan so I really don't know what point you're trying to make here.

Huh. I have no idea either. It must have seemed like a good point at the time.

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Your sensors only detect them once they start to exit subspace. Remember, in Surrender, Belisarius!, Command tracked the NTCv Belisarius to the location of the Psamptik.


A terran ship mind you. We never see them track a Shivan ship that way except for the Lucifer 32 years earlier.
That's not my point. You claimed Command could detect incoming warships through your sensors, which simply isn't true. Your sensors only pick up incoming warships' name and status just after their warp opens and the ship starts to emerge. Command tells you that the Belisarius is arriving earlier than that, (subspace tracking!) and tells you of incoming warships just before you pick up their status. This could be for two reasons; Command relies on your sensors to tell you when ships arrive at your position, or Command is a very busy person (one guy manages every single battle you're involved in, and even the Aquitaine reports to him) and only gets around to informing you when a ship is just arriving. Otherwise, a warship that is not observed jumping out can only vaguely be  predicted jumping in, or something like that. Also, if they can track the Lucifer, they can track the Sathanas.

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Also, Command was allowing him to escape. The Sathanas is a huge ship, likely with a huge energy signature,  The Iceni is much smaller, and designed with stealth, speed, etc. in mind. Even so, it probably could not have gotten through without GTVA interference. I doubt the allegiance of the alleged "rebels".

You are assuming that the Sathanas isn't capable of silent running though. Who's to say it isn't? There's no point in the main campaign when the Shivans would have ever cared about anyone detecting the Sathanas. So we have no idea what their emissions are like when they want to be stealthed.

Who's to say it is? The reactor still runs, the life-support probably still runs, the engines might, the subspace weapon might require constant attention. These are conjecture, but so is the idea of a Sathanas running silent. We don't know enough about GTVA sensor systems to entertain either idea.

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in the war you need the ability to track and fellow escaping enemies. not only detecting.


True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

Recon found the Sathanas in the nebula, IIRC in the same place they left it, but even so it was found by fighters (tell me if I'm wrong here). The nebula could obscure the observation of the warp.

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yes i know that the space is a big place and that we today have many problems to find asteriods in your sun-system and that they need a minimal size before we can they detect.
and that our solarsystems have a diameter of 3 lightyears (this 3 lightyears are the gravity influence of our sun, if we left that influence then first we left really the sun-system).
but a space ships isnt a death asteriod and if you knowing the starting point, its eaiser to track as if you try to find in a chaotic system one little fuzz.


Again I don't buy it. Even if you claim the Sathanas is bigger than the Iceni then so is an Orion class destroyer yet the ones in The Sicilian Defense were located only by reconnaissance and not by subspace tracking despite the fact that they could have only entered the system by running the Capella node blockade. Command was very interested in following these ships and yet was only able to do it by means other than subspace tracking even though the systems of the Orion must be a lot better understood than those on the Sathanas.

After a ship runs a blockade it jumps a second time to throw off pursuers. A higher priority was placed on minimizing the ships that got through than going after the ships that did. The Vindicator & friends jumped to a random point in the system, then jumped to the rally point before GTVA forces could follow them.


You're right, though. FreeSpace has shown several situations where tactics are used to find hiding enemies, like in Feint! Parry! Riposte!, and it can be assumed that the Sathanas is no different.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 07:43:14 pm by Agent_Koopa »
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Offline Turey

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
the life-support probably still runs

Lies! Go watch hallfight and shiphit06. Shivans don't need no steeking life support!
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
That's not my point. You claimed Command could detect incoming warships through your sensors, which simply isn't true.

Actually I was on about everything except the Belisarius. You threw me off with this.

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as far i can me remember, command say reallv often if any enemy ship jump in.

The Belisarius is the only ship that the GTVA tracks through subspace IIRC. They do however say really often when a ship actually jump in so I assumed that was what you were on about.

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Who's to say it is? The reactor still runs, the life-support probably still runs, the engines might, the subspace weapon might require constant attention. These are conjecture, but so is the idea of a Sathanas running silent. We don't know enough about GTVA sensor systems to entertain either idea.

I don't need to prove that the Sathanas is capable of silent running though. Have you forgotten the original topic under discussion? The point was that there was no reason why Command felt the Sathanas had to die so quickly. I countered with that it could hide. If you're going to prove me wrong you have to prove that the Sathanas being able to hide in Capella goes against canon. I don't have to prove that it could however. Just that it might have been able to and that might have been why Command was so scared.

The second you admit that there is no canon information either way about whether the Sathanas can go into silent running mode is the second you lose this part of the argument. Not my fault you choose to get into an argument with an uneven burden of proof. :p

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True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

Recon found the Sathanas in the nebula, IIRC in the same place they left it, but even so it was found by fighters (tell me if I'm wrong here). The nebula could obscure the observation of the warp.

Nope. They they found the Sathanas heading towards the Gamma Draconis node in Speaking in Tongues. Till then they had no idea where the Sathanas was.

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You're right, though. FreeSpace has shown several situations where tactics are used to find hiding enemies, like in Feint! Parry! Riposte!, and it can be assumed that the Sathanas is no different.

But I'm not saying the Sathanas definitely would have been able to hide in Capella. I'm saying that Command was worried about the possibility of it doing so. Command had to consider the fact that there were 250 million people in Capella and large numbers of them could have died if the Sathanas jumped out, repaired even one cannon and then attacked a planet.

In a situation like that you don't take risks. You don't assume "Oh well its 4 beam cannons are down, we're safe now" The Sathanas was still a very big threat. It had to die quickly.
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Offline Wobble73

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
You do have a point Kara, but when have the Shivans ever used any kind of stealth tactic? I just don't see the Shivans running and hiding, it's just not their way. So why would Command be worried that they might suddenly start using such a tactic.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Cause for once they had a Shivan vessel which couldn't attack. That's also unprecedented too.

Shivan vessels might not care much about saving their own skins but it does seem odd to expect a Shivan to sit there and let the enemy take its time killing it don't you think? 
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I don't need to prove that the Sathanas is capable of silent running though. Have you forgotten the original topic under discussion? The point was that there was no reason why Command felt the Sathanas had to die so quickly. I countered with that it could hide. If you're going to prove me wrong you have to prove that the Sathanas being able to hide in Capella goes against canon. I don't have to prove that it could however. Just that it might have been able to and that might have been why Command was so scared.

The second you admit that there is no canon information either way about whether the Sathanas can go into silent running mode is the second you lose this part of the argument. Not my fault you choose to get into an argument with an uneven burden of proof. :p

Ehh...not really.
When making assumptions one should base it on what one actually knows about FS universe, not what one doesn't know or what could have been.

We do know the GTVA can track shivan ships if it can see it jumping out (i.e. - if it's inside sensor range of a allied warship)

We do know a sathanas can carry many fighters/bombers and that makes it dangerous even without the beam cannons. We do not know how many it had left (running though the blockade, the ones it lost while you took out the beams)

We do know that the Sath ran trough the blockade unscratched (impossible, but for story purposes...), the only damage it took before the fight with Colossuss is from the bombers.

I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...

We know pretty much for a fact that Command thought that the Shivans only had one Sathanas. They probably thought of the Sathanas as being the Shivan analogue to the Colossus. That assumption might have been stupid I'll agree but it was Command's belief at the time.

Given that assumption melting the canons was a perfectly sensible choice. And we don't know that more allied ships were on the way at all. Or that they'd arrive in time to make a difference if the Sathanas did manage to repair its beams. As I said before the only canon ships still known to be in system were the Colossus and the Psamtik.
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Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...
They didn't completely melt their cannons, they were just on the verge of doing so. It makes no sense to destroy your own cannons if there's no guarantee that doing so will destroy the Sathanas faster.


And I'm too lazy to write anything other than I cede the argument to Karajorma.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 10:05:06 pm by Agent_Koopa »
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Offline Mehrpack

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Oh but it is relevent. I don't buy that the GTVA had the forces to patrol an entire system. Not after what the Sathanas did to the fleet. 

hi,
dont meaning that they patroul the whole system, but i mean that is there traffic, escaping civilian and some military patrols.
if they see a shivan, they yell for help.

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Where? There's the Psamtik and the Colossus and that's it. By time High Noon is set the Sathanas has twice destroyed GTVA blockades. I see no proof that there are other ships in the system at all.

i think of the carrier the aquitaine was there too, and i dont think that command use the completly fleet to blockade the node.
all what they had need was time and the fighters/bomber of the sathanas are a great thread too.
so i think there was another military units in the system to intercept possible secondary targets, startet by the sathanas.

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You've also missed the same point as Agent_Koopa did. The Sathanas does have higher acceleration than the leviathan regardless of it's size or mass. Did you think I wouldn't check the tables before making a flat out statement that the Sathanas was faster? :lol:

ähm nope, sorry, ok under this sights they havnt so much problems with the gravity.

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True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

we dont know what for ship have what for sensor ability, but a hecate as a commanding ship, imho need good sensors or good eyes.
but i didnt think that a leviathan or fenris have the best sensors of ships, aside the awacs, the ship design is many years old and didnt chance in last 30 years.

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Again I don't buy it. Even if you claim the Sathanas is bigger than the Iceni then so is an Orion class destroyer yet the ones in The Sicilian Defense were located only by reconnaissance and not by subspace tracking despite the fact that they could have only entered the system by running the Capella node blockade. Command was very interested in following these ships and yet was only able to do it by means other than subspace tracking even though the systems of the Orion must be a lot better understood than those on the Sathanas.

the enemy orion do have a better understanding about the searching pattern as the sathanas.
and i not only mean the mass, i mean the emission of so a great ship.
but we didnt know if the shivans have a special creep drive or stealth mode. i think its not really possible, because thats really match the tactics of the shivan.
they onslaught a race and dont creep, imo.

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Nope. They they found the Sathanas heading towards the Gamma Draconis node in Speaking in Tongues. Till then they had no idea where the Sathanas was.

the sathanas was to this time in the nebular, witch cause many problems for the allied sensor systems.
i think we can compare this area to a clear space area.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
dont meaning that they patroul the whole system, but i mean that is there traffic, escaping civilian and some military patrols.
if they see a shivan, they yell for help.


I never denied that they would. But space is big and civilian traffic will do point to point jumps and will also have much crappier sensors than military craft. Unless the Sathanas jumps within visual range of a civilian ship they aren't going to see a thing.

Furthermore these ships are all going to be clustered around the planets anyway. They wouldn't be evenly spaced out. All the Sathanas has to do in order to hide is simply jump to an area of space where there are no planets for 100 million kilometres in any direction. Who the hell would be anywhere near there to detect them?

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i think of the carrier the aquitaine was there too


Based on what? The Aquitaine was last mentioned as being in the Nebula during Speaking in Tongues. After that we don't hear from it again until long after the Sathanas is destroyed.

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and i dont think that command use the completly fleet to blockade the node.


Again, based on what? Sending the Colossus against the Sathanas was an act of desperation. Yet no other capships were present in that mission to help the Colossus so where where they?

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the enemy orion do have a better understanding about the searching pattern as the sathanas.

Search patterns which I deny the validity of in the first place since space is so big that it could take years to search the entire system.

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and i not only mean the mass, i mean the emission of so a great ship.


Okay first lets challenge this assumption that a large ship has bigger emissions. Yes the Sathanas will have systems that use more power than a smaller ship but it also has much thicker armour which is going to cut the strength of those emissions down. Remember that a nuclear strike with an antimatter weapon doesn't wipe out the entire crew of a capship so we already know that whatever the Sathanas is built out of is largely impervious to EM radiation.

You haven't even proved that the Sathanas actually has higher emissions than a smaller ship.

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but we didnt know if the shivans have a special creep drive or stealth mode. i think its not really possible, because thats really match the tactics of the shivan.
they onslaught a race and dont creep, imo.


They don't sit still for 5 minutes and allow a weaker ship to blow the crap out of them with BGreens either. So whatever the Sathanas' response would have been was atypical anyway. And onslaught race or not let me point out that the Lucifer had a habit of wondering all over the place rather than simply staying where it was and taking on all comers. So there is canon proof of the Shivans not simply charging in at the enemy even when they had a vastly superior ship.

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the sathanas was to this time in the nebular, witch cause many problems for the allied sensor systems.
i think we can compare this area to a clear space area.

The nebula may have caused problems but that doesn't mean you can assume you can instantly find a needle in a haystack the second you are out of it.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I wouldn't say an act of desperation.
It was planned. Command didn't want to loose the collie - they wanted to give him every possible advantage and thus the bombing run on sath's beams.

More important, a state-of-the-art ship like the Collie would have superb sensors. If the sath were to jump out the Collie would certanly be able to track it.
the saths beams were destroyed seconds before it jumped to Capella. Repairs on a ship that big take a LOT of time (evidenced by the hul repair on the collie). Fixing a beam cannon the size of a corvette would take resources and time - and I doubt the Sath would have either of it.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I wouldn't say an act of desperation.
It was planned. Command didn't want to loose the collie - they wanted to give him every possible advantage and thus the bombing run on sath's beams.

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The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus. With its beam cannons still operational, the Sathanas has sufficient firepower to win this engagement.

Do you even bother to look at the missions before coming out with those comments? The only way you don't get that intro is if you managed to take out all 4 beam cannons.

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More important, a state-of-the-art ship like the Collie would have superb sensors. If the sath were to jump out the Collie would certanly be able to track it.


Prove it. Don't just assert it. Prove it.

We have no idea what the recharge time is on the Sathanas' jump engines. Even if I believe you that the Colossus can track the Sathanas there might be nothing but empty space there by the time Command can send a capship to its location.

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the saths beams were destroyed seconds before it jumped to Capella.

Only on one particular outcome. You're cherry-picking data again.

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Repairs on a ship that big take a LOT of time (evidenced by the hul repair on the collie). Fixing a beam cannon the size of a corvette would take resources and time - and I doubt the Sath would have either of it.

 The colossus repairs it's disabled fighterbay only a few minutes after the start of Their Finest Hour. The Aquitaine's destroyed engine subsystems are repaired after only a few minutes work on them in Argonautica. Just because a subsystem is destroyed doesn't men it's reduced to scrap. It just means that the subsystem is incapacitated. The Colossus requires months worth of repairs because it took heavy damage from it's beam cannons over heating. This damage all occured internal to the Colossus and thus is different from the damage a ship takes from being shot.

Besides there is a huge difference between the time required for a battlefield jury-rig and a full naval dockyard refitting. You simply can't compare the repair times for the two.


Oh and if the Sathanas can simply jump further out of the gravity well than anything the Alliance have they're definitely ****ed.  The Sathanas could just sit and wait however long it wants to. I've got no proof either way and it might have definitely been a consideration for Command.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Campaign is not very smart.
I don't need to prove that the Sathanas is capable of silent running though. Have you forgotten the original topic under discussion? The point was that there was no reason why Command felt the Sathanas had to die so quickly. I countered with that it could hide. If you're going to prove me wrong you have to prove that the Sathanas being able to hide in Capella goes against canon. I don't have to prove that it could however. Just that it might have been able to and that might have been why Command was so scared.

The second you admit that there is no canon information either way about whether the Sathanas can go into silent running mode is the second you lose this part of the argument. Not my fault you choose to get into an argument with an uneven burden of proof. :p

Ehh...not really.
When making assumptions one should base it on what one actually knows about FS universe, not what one doesn't know or what could have been.

We do know the GTVA can track shivan ships if it can see it jumping out (i.e. - if it's inside sensor range of a allied warship)

We do know a sathanas can carry many fighters/bombers and that makes it dangerous even without the beam cannons. We do not know how many it had left (running though the blockade, the ones it lost while you took out the beams)

We do know that the Sath ran trough the blockade unscratched (impossible, but for story purposes...), the only damage it took before the fight with Colossuss is from the bombers.

I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...

It'd take a very special kind of idiot to give the greatest threat in human history the opportunity to walk away, when it was most vulnerable,  because they were afraid of a little cosmetic damage.  If the Colossus nearly melts itself killing the Sathani - slowly - what do you think it'd do to lesser beam cannons?  That juggernaught ain't gonna sit there forever doing nothing......  and what makes you think the Shivans wouldn't send reinforcements if it was in genuine trouble?