[Mustang19]

In my opinion, I think [V] really screwed up here. I know they wanted to make the vasudans seem more similar to the Terrans than the Shivans but the Terrans and Vasudans are still just too similar to be believable.

screwed up? They did a lot better than most other SciFi. And a lot better than George Lucas.

Physical appearance isn't all that important, as has already been said. What would make an alien race totally incomprehensible to us is their psychology and other characteristics we can't see. Vasudans would have a totally different array of senses and thought processes. They probably wouldn't see things on the electromagnetic spectrum that humans use, although strangely all of their art and architecture seems to be made for humans to look at (well, not that strange if you consider that it's a game). Think of the window in the Vasudan main hall. It's made of a material apparently similar to glass and lets in human light wavelengths. Snakes see infrared, sharks can "see" magnetism, many insects see slightly above our "visual spectrum" into UV rays. Although I can understand if they're audible on human audio frequencies, their senses of sight, taste, and smell will be totally different from ours.  Any alien would have a totally different way of percieving the world.

I liked the FS1 Vasudans. The first time I read the FS1 techroom description for them, I was hooked. Finally, an alien race that wasn't entirely humanoid. FS1 Vasudans were mysterious and foreign. Their language was indecipherable to us, we had only a vague idea what their cultural rituals were like, and the only time we came into contact with them was when we heard the monotone translation voice and emotionless head .ani . The Shivans were even better, creepier and indecipherable. Much different in size and shape than any human and totally confusing to us, Shivans are the closest thing I've seen in SciFi to what a real alien would be like (other than the easily-resolved tool manipulation issues mentioned earlier).

FS2 wrecked the Vasudans. No longer did we only get brief glimpses of them as head anis or computer-generated voices. Now they just had human voices turned up or down in pitch. did a good job on the Vasudan Mainhall architecture, but other than that, in FS2 we learned that Vasudans are like humans, just with different looks.

[achtung]

The ancients did it.

[Mobius]

The Ancients? They were aggressive. It's a bit off topic, but I would like to say that the Ancients are another extraterrestrial species designed very well by Volition. I have always read stories about other civilizations, disappeared many thousand years ago, but they were all about a pacific civilization, crushed by another one, the enemy. The Ancients are realistic. A civilization with an expanded Empire, aggressive and overconfident. In Inferno R1, what remains of the Ancients should have been another opponent....fair thing to me.

In FS2 there's an Alliance...Terrans and Vasudans are supposed to work together...that's why we can easily consider them similar. I would like to mention, however, different kinds of behaviours and how the Vasudans face death. There are no "Oh my God!" and "What the hell are you doing? Help us!!!", typical of Terrans... there are sentences like "Avenge me!" and "Long live the Emperor!" that come from a different species, a different way to see ourselves, to see the others, to consider Life a gift.

That's probably why the HoL lasted too long, even if it wasn't as armed as another group of rebels like the NTF: with most members ready to sacrifice their lives, the HoL was able to resist against coordinated attacks for a long time. Terrans are always ready to collaborate and rarely sacrifice their lives in order to save comrades or kill enemies.

[TrashMan]

Had it ever accured to anyone that humanoid shape may be the optimal shape for a cultural and technological race?

The human form is the one we KNOW works for what it was intended. Yes, a RACE could look like pretty much anything, but forthat race to survive or reach interstellar travel - it takes a bit more. Designs that don't work in nature die. Species and races that don't work also die out.

That's way I have no trouble in seeing humanoid races. In fact, I think they would be highly probable.

[Mobius]

You're right...scientists demonstrated that humanoid species are perfect. They're physically weak, but their brain and their hands guarantee success.

But wait: we're saying humanoid. Someone is discussing about exaggerately similar life forms.

[Charismatic]

What the **** are you saying?

Of corse its beleiveable.. its cannon. Its the story, its fact.

We did both start as single cells and we both developed similarly. If we had dual cells we would be the shivans #2.

So there is no ripleys beleive it or not, its set and done, fact. Plain and simple.

[Commander Zane]

FS2 wrecked the Vasudans. No longer did we only get brief glimpses of them as head anis or computer-generated voices. Now they just had human voices turned up or down in pitch.

I hope you actually played the game long enough to know those "human voices" are supposed to be the result of Vasudan --> Earth human translating systems.

[BS403]

There is only one possible explanation for the similarities. They had a common ancestor. The facial configuration of humans and basically all others animals on earth is because we had common ancestors. True aliens in our universe would not look like any animal we have seen before.

What about the Greys, they have two eyes, one mouth and possibly two ears, (although they could be missing a nose)?


 

What are greys???

[redsniper]

The stereotypical aliens that supposedly visit Earth nowdays and abduct folks and such. You know, little short guys with big heads and big black eyes?

[Black Wolf]

The physiology, maybe I can live with it. When you really look at the number of things that need to go right to develop an advanced, sentient, technological species, I don't think that we'll ever encounter another technological species that is vastly, vastly different to ourselves. No hyperintelligent shades of the colour blue and whatnot. But the technological similarities are ridiculous on a galactic timescale. Out of the three and a half billion years of our evolution, and probably a similar magnitude of time for the vasudans, we just happened to cross paths at the point when we were so evenly technologically matched that we could fight a war that ended in a fourteen year stalemate (and then encountered a race that were only a few decades ahead of both of us? Never happen.

[Scooby_Doo]

The Ancients? They were aggressive. It's a bit off topic, but I would like to say that the Ancients are another extraterrestrial species designed very well by Volition. I have always read stories about other civilizations, disappeared many thousand years ago, but they were all about a pacific civilization, crushed by another one, the enemy. The Ancients are realistic. A civilization with an expanded Empire, aggressive and overconfident. In Inferno R1, what remains of the Ancients should have been another opponent....fair thing to me.

Theres nothing to suggest for or against races way older then either the ancients or shivans.  For all we know maybe the Progenitors, or Steltek or some other ancient during the timewar, that might have helped things alone 

[karajorma]

Had it ever accured to anyone that humanoid shape may be the optimal shape for a cultural and technological race?

It occured. And then was rejected as a bunch of humanocentric bull****.

Give me one good reason why velociraptor or any of the other dromaeosaurs would have to change to an upright posture in order to achieve sentience and I might concede that you  have a point.

Humans had to walk erect to allow us to come down out of the trees. But just because the selection pressures then led to sentience doesn't mean an upright posture should be considered a prerequisite for sentience.

[Wobble73]

How would you define sentience?  Who's to say dolphins are not sentient.  Seem's to me they are probably more intelligent than us, all they do all day is play, eat, sleep and mate! they are not at the top of the food chain, but they aren't at the bottom either, and there aren't that many predators that prey on dolphins specifically. They have it made, and didn't need any technology to do it either!

[Mefustae]

Who's to say dolphins are not sentient.  Seem's to me they are probably more intelligent than us, all they do all day is play, eat, sleep and mate! they are not at the top of the food chain, but they aren't at the bottom either, and there aren't that many predators that prey on dolphins specifically.

More intelligent than us? No. You, on the other hand...

[Wobble73]

Who's to say dolphins are not sentient.  Seem's to me they are probably more intelligent than us, all they do all day is play, eat, sleep and mate! they are not at the top of the food chain, but they aren't at the bottom either, and there aren't that many predators that prey on dolphins specifically.

More intelligent than us? No. You, on the other hand...

Huh? Yeah maybe, sorry! I've just woke up and it was just a thought! It was just the idea that a species could be sentient without actually being technologically advanced! 

[TrashMan]

The physiology, maybe I can live with it. When you really look at the number of things that need to go right to develop an advanced, sentient, technological species, I don't think that we'll ever encounter another technological species that is vastly, vastly different to ourselves. No hyperintelligent shades of the colour blue and whatnot. But the technological similarities are ridiculous on a galactic timescale. Out of the three and a half billion years of our evolution, and probably a similar magnitude of time for the vasudans, we just happened to cross paths at the point when we were so evenly technologically matched that we could fight a war that ended in a fourteen year stalemate (and then encountered a race that were only a few decades ahead of both of us? Never happen.

Does it say specificly that both sides were equal the the begining if hte T-V war? Maby one side had a clear tech advantage, but lost it (stealing tech).

Also, Shivans are apparently far more advanced... maby they're jsut sending in the reserve reserve fleet to deal with us..


And one final note - you assume technologywill develop exponentially - that is probably false. New scientific theories become more and more complicated, especially when we go into nano-scale (n-dimension calculation). We're making theories on concepts we can't even grasp.
Consequently, new tech become more and more complicated.

This all leads to that people need more time to master it, more training to mantain it. Ultimately, the human brain has it's limits. We're porbably going to reach a phase where progress will slow don significantly, and soon.

It occured. And then was rejected as a bunch of humanocentric bull****.

Give me one good reason why velociraptor or any of the other dromaeosaurs would have to change to an upright posture in order to achieve sentience and I might concede that you  have a point.

Humans had to walk erect to allow us to come down out of the trees. But just because the selection pressures then led to sentience doesn't mean an upright posture should be considered a prerequisite for sentience.

For all intense and purposes, they were sentient. all animals are. The word you're looking for is advanced intelligence.
However a velocilaptor would never develop a intricate colture..I just don't see him capable of building anything with those claws...

another thing that's interesting to note - is advanced intelligence the result of evolution? Kinda strange we're the only species on the planet that is this "smart". Either way, there is no evidence that it is...more food for hte thought.

[karajorma]

[quote author=TrashMan link=topic=46864.msg955610#msg955610 date=1178011543For all intense and purposes, they were sentient. all animals are. The word you're looking for is advanced intelligence.[/quote]

No it isn't.

Replace sentient with sapient if you want to get pedantic about it.

However a velocilaptor would never develop a intricate colture..I just don't see him capable of building anything with those claws...

And apes couldn't achieve sapience cause they would burn their trees down creating fires.

I referred quite clearly to the dromaeosaurs evolving into an sapient life form. Not that they were one.

another thing that's interesting to note - is advanced intelligence the result of evolution? Kinda strange we're the only species on the planet that is this "smart". Either way, there is no evidence that it is...more food for hte thought.

It's not strange at all.  Who says that any other animal on Earth ever had the selection pressure and the  morphology required to achieve sapience?

[TrashMan]

However a velocilaptor would never develop a intricate colture..I just don't see him capable of building anything with those claws...

And apes couldn't achieve sapience cause they would burn their trees down creating fires.

I referred quite clearly to the dromaeosaurs evolving into an sapient life form. Not that they were one.

Eh...what? 

It's not strange at all.  Who says that any other animal on Earth ever had the selection pressure and the  morphology required to achieve sapience?

Is is possible high intelligence is a product of evolution, however I doubt it.
There are animals similar to us in many way in biology(apes) but who are light-years away from actually developing an intricate culture like us.
There's no comparison.. and selection pressure is allways there - adapt or die. You really think our pressure was somehow different than that of various ape species?

[Black Wolf]

Does it say specificly that both sides were equal the the begining if hte T-V war? Maby one side had a clear tech advantage, but lost it (stealing tech).

Also, Shivans are apparently far more advanced... maby they're jsut sending in the reserve reserve fleet to deal with us..

It not a matter of one side or the other having a slight advantage - we're talking about a timescale measured in millions, if not billions of years. Consider the numbers. Assume both species took 3.5 billion years to evolve from the first self replicating molecules on their respective planet. If the vasudans had reached their FS1 technological level and encountered the terrans just 0.000000285% of that history before they actually did, they would have found us in the middle of the dark ages. It's not really classed as a technological edge when one side has plasma guns and subspace, and the other has horses and catapults. And that assumes they both started at exactly the same time and took the same amount of time to develop. It's a massive, massive coincidence - in fact, turn the number on it's head and you get a 1 in 3,500,000 chance of the two species encountering each other with technology levels of approximately 1000 years apart. Get it to the point where they can fight a stalemate war against each other (generously say an equivalence of within 50 or so years) and you get a 1 in 70,000,000 chance. Get it?

As for the shivans, in what ways exactly, were they far more advanced in FS1? Shields, Beams, can't be targetted, better quality fighters, subspace tracking etc. etc. All of which we had by FS2. They're more advanced, but not on the kind of scale they should be given these galactic timescales.

And one final note - you assume technologywill develop exponentially - that is probably false. New scientific theories become more and more complicated, especially when we go into nano-scale (n-dimension calculation). We're making theories on concepts we can't even grasp.
Consequently, new tech become more and more complicated.

This all leads to that people need more time to master it, more training to mantain it. Ultimately, the human brain has it's limits. We're porbably going to reach a phase where progress will slow don significantly, and soon.

Don't be silly. The more we understand, the more able we are to make use of it. Technological progress is going to vastly increase. You're right, things are getting more complex, and as a result, people are getting more specialized. But we've also got, for the first time in human history, large scale, easy access to the greater part of the sum of human knowledge (and a lot of porn) in the form of the internet. We're heading towards a technological singularity, not a slowdown.

It occured. And then was rejected as a bunch of humanocentric bull****.

Give me one good reason why velociraptor or any of the other dromaeosaurs would have to change to an upright posture in order to achieve sentience and I might concede that you  have a point.

Humans had to walk erect to allow us to come down out of the trees. But just because the selection pressures then led to sentience doesn't mean an upright posture should be considered a prerequisite for sentience.

Increasign brain size would have neccessitated increasing head size, probably causing a body weight imbalance. You could counter this by increasing rear bulk or tail length, but this would have been less energy efficient than adjusting their posture to be more upright and centre the weight better over their legs. Plus, long tails would have made them vulnerable to ambush by larger predators (the only realistic defence a dromaeosaur would have had against a larger tyrannosaurid type predator would have been to run away after all, leaving their rear exposed). Admittedly, a more upright posture might have been less efficient for speed and raptorial predation, but this could well have been the selection pressure that led to a further increase in brain size, just as humans had to increase their brain size in order to survive the much stronger selection pressure on the plains rather than in the somewhat safer trees.

Admittedly, it's not an air tight theory, but it's certainly (IMO) a viable route towards increased inteligence and upright posture in dromaeosaurs. I reckon that, in earthlike gravity, for terrestrial bipeds heading for sentience, upright posture is probably the way to go, simply because it's much easier to keep your big, heavy, well protected head directly above your centre of gravity that to have to put a big counterweight out behind you. In lower gravity you might be able to do it, but you'd need to have some sort of advantage to promote it.

Of course, there's nothing saying that terrestrial bipeds are the only way you're going to get sentience. You could have marine animals (though I'd say finding technological sentience in truly marine organisms (as opposed to amphibious) would be very rare, because of the much more significant advantage of a hydrodynamic shape vs evolving complex manipulators. You could do it with tentacles I suppose, but that'd be... well, it'd be rare I suspect), or terrestrial quadrapedal-hexapods (i.e. 4 legs, two arms), etc. etc.

[Mongoose]

Regarding this topic as a whole, I don't think that anyone can make a qualified statement either way on the evolutionary development/form of potential sentient life on another planet, simply because we have no evidence at all to go on either way.  The only ecosystem and planetary history we can observe is our own, and the only sentient (or at the very least, technologically sentient) species we can observe is ourselves; we're in a completely closed system here.  Perhaps our planet's primordial situation was unique, leading to the forms of life we can trace over Earth's history, right up to ourselves.  Perhaps any sort of advanced life that formed on another planet, even one very like our own, would be so radically different as to not even be recognizable as such.  Or perhaps sentient life really could take the form of bipedal reptilians with a semi-exposed skeletal/muscular structure, complex linguistics, and a penchant for fish.  We have no clue either way, and until the day comes when we're able to fully study an alien ecosystem, any discussion on the matter is not much more than fodder for science fiction.

And on that note, concerning oneself about the minuscule probability of humanity happening to stumble across another sentient species at an almost exact level of development as our own seems to me to be rather foolish, considering that this fact was the main construct that enables the form of gameplay seen in this series.