[TrashMan]

*SNIP*

Can't agree with that one. In RL, carries are more usefull than battleship, but in FS the abiltiy to move fast, from one end of the system to another in a few seconds (minutes tops) really evens the playfield.

An Orion jumping in beside the Hecate - a single Orions broadside is enough to SERIOUSLY damage the Hecate. Yes, the Hecate can jump out, but the damage is done...it can't jump out fast enough to avoid at least one salvo, and that is usually more than enough. Whatever fighters and bombers the Orion has can finish the job from then on.

The Hecate simply can't use the same tactic, unless the Orion is SERIOUSLY weakened or disarmed before jumping in.

to make a long stroy short - in FS, carriers and battleship are BOTH usefull.

[TrashMan]

I actually heard CIWS are efective, alltough you dont' want it to come down to them.. They're the last line of defense, after all.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-15.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6nm-6eCzM

[Desert Tyrant]

From what I remember, Carriers are used now a days because it is easier to maintain a fighter-plane that it is to maintain a battleship.  Orion's are designed really to be a full-on combo od Battleship/Carrier.  The Hecate leans in heavily toward carrier(Despite the fact a Hecate's total firepower is quite above any corvettes).  With the crappy condition the GTVA may be in post-capella.  Plus Helios torps are described to be rather expensive, with Meson bombs being far more so. 

AS for different roles, I would keep the Hecate away from the front lines and let the battlegroup, plus fighters deal with any incoming capships.  If this fails for any reason, the Hecate should try to haul ass out of the system.  The Orion can't project quite as much force, because it carries less fights and bombers, but made up in the fact that the Orion is quite superior in combat.  In other words, ones anti-cap armanant is dependan on other ships support while it tries to leave, while the Orion armanant is good enough to do in any other warship, aside from Collosus/Sathanus, but that is a debate for another time...

[Dysko]

From what I remember, Carriers are used now a days because it is easier to maintain a fighter-plane that it is to maintain a battleship.

Carriers are used nowadays because in WW2 battleships showed their weakness against carrier-borne aircrafts (see attack on Taranto harbor, sinking of the Bismarck, attack on Pearl Harbor and sinking of the Yamato).

[Mustang19]

I don't think you'll gain anything from drawing comparisons between FS and RL. It's worth noting that in real life you can't reliably hit a moving target with naval gunnery greater than 60km away, versus SSMs (missiles) that have a range of 120+ km. Most FS beams can shoot at least 3000m away, while you have to be under 600m from your target to get a good bomb hit. It's a somewhat different balance, even though FS and RL share a few superficial similarities.

It's also helpful to remember that FreeSpace ships were designed as plot devices, not as something to be analyzed from a tactical perspective. Why does the Eva sit in place for 15 minutes while you pound it with bombs? Why can you cripple the Sathanas using Rockeyes? Why doesn't the Orion replace its blob turrets with Morning Stars?

Capital ship engagments in FreeSpace are rare, and even they are choreographed, not complicated battles. Yeah, you can think about tactics if you want, but Volition didn't intend for you to read that much into it. Many of the ships are stupidly laid out both in fire arcs and in weapon choices, and the tactics they use border on idiotic.

[nubbles526]

Poor little demon...

[colecampbell666]

You might posit that the Orion could try jumping to the Hecate's location to turn the tables, but once again, superior fighter and bomber forces are going to win the day, as the Orion is going to be neutered in mere minutes. 

   Unless Alpha 1 is on the Orion

[shiven_warior]

and if alpha one activated the www.freespace2.com and ~ked the hecate ^^

[TrashMan]

You might posit that the Orion could try jumping to the Hecate's location to turn the tables, but once again, superior fighter and bomber forces are going to win the day, as the Orion is going to be neutered in mere minutes. 

   Unless Alpha 1 is on the Orion

Mah..the Orion only needs 20 seconds to turn the Hecate into a smoldering ruin.

[Desert Tyrant]

Poor little demon...

I likd the Ravana design more.  THAT is how you build an offensive destroyer.  Enough focused firepower to render a Hatshepsut to wreck debris in a hurry.

[Game_Master64]

the important thing to remember here is they all blow up equally well. more or less.

[Polpolion]

Orion class!

[Excalibur]

Quote from: BlueFlames on June 21, 2007, 12:20:20 AM
blah blah blah... (very nice, BTW!   )

That deserves an A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think it was weird how the Ravana did nothing while the Sobek fired at it in "Slaying Ravana" (the destruction of the first Ravana)

It didn't even attempt to try and fight back - if it can nuetralise a Diemos in a few seconds, why not a Sobek?

Oh, I think this is a good tactic for attacking the Sath (no doubt discovered years ago). Go directly in front of it in the cage created by its arms. Obviously if you wander out of it then there will be debris for it to try and evade. You could stick an Orion or any other destroyer in there. One other problem - what if the Sath decides to jump? But surely it would cause great damage to itself.

BTW, has any one tried the Orion II against a Hat or a Colossus? That would be interesting.

[BlueFlames]

I think I'm more disturbed about the compliments to my post than the arguments....  I was nodding off and watching TV while typing that.  The abrupt change of pace in the middle of the post was where I lost my train of thought, watching the 1:00am re-air of Mythbusters. 

At any rate, I stand beside my defense of the Hatshepsut and my use of the parallels between real navies and the FS2 fleets.  The parallels aren't perfect, but the GTVA's technology, between FreeSpace 1 and FreeSpace 2, seems to be evolving in such a way as to make the comparisons increasingly valid.  Bombers simply have greater reach and power than beam cannons do, just as WWII torpedo and dive bombers had more range and power than any battleship could muster.

Regarding an Orion jumping atop an unsuspecting Hecate, it's just unlikely, given the fact that the Hecate will be able to field more reconnaisance fighters, capable of spotting the Orion from far beyond sensor range.  Yes, the Orion is likely to have recon wings of its own, but the point is, the Hecate will have more.  This means greater coverage of a system and faster detection of targets hostile to the Hecate.  Supposing the Orion does pop in to make its broadside attack, the Hecate survives, jumps away, and even has time to leave a few wings of bombers to return the favor.  Where's the Orion now?  It's stuck in a small swarm of hostile bombers, until it can recharge its jump drives to give chase.

There's a reason the Hecate is a technological step forward:  It's a better carrier-analogue, and as the carrier-analogues get better, the battleship-analogues get comparatively worse.  That's not to say the Orion is totally worthless, but unless you're removing fighters and bombers entirely from the equation, or giving the Orion some other borderline-unrealistic advantage to the Orion, its odds just aren't great in an engagement with a Hecate.

[Colonol Dekker]

One other problem - what if the Sath decides to jump?

DIVE DIVE DIVE, HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT !!  ............great now i've gotta wait ten minutes before i can change my shorts

[TrashMan]

I think I'm more disturbed about the compliments to my post than the arguments....  I was nodding off and watching TV while typing that.  The abrupt change of pace in the middle of the post was where I lost my train of thought, watching the 1:00am re-air of Mythbusters. 

At any rate, I stand beside my defense of the Hatshepsut and my use of the parallels between real navies and the FS2 fleets.  The parallels aren't perfect, but the GTVA's technology, between FreeSpace 1 and FreeSpace 2, seems to be evolving in such a way as to make the comparisons increasingly valid.  Bombers simply have greater reach and power than beam cannons do, just as WWII torpedo and dive bombers had more range and power than any battleship could muster.

Regarding an Orion jumping atop an unsuspecting Hecate, it's just unlikely, given the fact that the Hecate will be able to field more reconnaisance fighters, capable of spotting the Orion from far beyond sensor range.  Yes, the Orion is likely to have recon wings of its own, but the point is, the Hecate will have more.  This means greater coverage of a system and faster detection of targets hostile to the Hecate.  Supposing the Orion does pop in to make its broadside attack, the Hecate survives, jumps away, and even has time to leave a few wings of bombers to return the favor.  Where's the Orion now?  It's stuck in a small swarm of hostile bombers, until it can recharge its jump drives to give chase.

There's a reason the Hecate is a technological step forward:  It's a better carrier-analogue, and as the carrier-analogues get better, the battleship-analogues get comparatively worse.  That's not to say the Orion is totally worthless, but unless you're removing fighters and bombers entirely from the equation, or giving the Orion some other borderline-unrealistic advantage to the Orion, its odds just aren't great in an engagement with a Hecate.

1. You fail to take into account the obvius advantage of heavy beam cannons - they can't be stopped or intercepted and can be fired the second a destroyer jumps in.
bomber first need to get into range (which is significantly less than a beam cannons range) and they are slow moving so it takes them a while, get a lock (also takes time, especially if you're harassaed) and the bomb actually has to make it trough.

2. Also, AFAIK, you can't detect an incoming warship on time - unless you had a spotter that saw it leave position X, you'll know it's there only when you see the subspace tunel opening. Even if your jump drives are charged and ready and you hit jump the second the Orion pops up, it takes you longer to jump than it takes a capship to fire beams.

3. The fighterbay is allways a bottleneck - no matter how many fighter you cary you can only launch them at a specific rate. it takes several minutes to deploy all fighters...and several minutes is a long time (assumin all fighters arn't allready up in the air)

4. Finally, in reality the Orion doesn't need bombers..If you filled it with just interceptors it would be very hard for any bomb to pass trough...that holds even more true for the Hecate..

[colecampbell666]

Even if the Hecate has more fighters the Orion would still win. If the Hecate sent lone fighter and bombers then the fighters on the Orion would have a better chance of defeating them because it could use it's defences to reinforce it's defenders. if the Hecate jumped in the Orion could destroy it before it could launch many fighters. If the Hecate launched fighters and then they all jumped in together, the fighters would get there first and be mainly gone by the time the destroyer arrived. Otherwise their would be a stalemate until the destroyers exhausted all of their fighters. Even then the Orion would still win becuase it is better on its own. This would all depend on the skill of either captain, and whether or not he played his strengths, though.

[Hades]

SD RAVANA!!!!!!It has 2 kick ass beams.It looks nice, every time i see one im like 'aww i have to kill it now?".Especially the HTL Ver.

[Agent_Koopa]

The Hat is the best destroyer in the GTVA in terms of combat ability and everything. If I was flying around in anything in the GTVA arsenal, I'd feel safest in a Hatshepsut.

But I still voted Orion. No FS2 ship can ever, ever beat an FS1 ship. Too much history, too much awesome.

Uh, no you wouldn't. I personally would feel completely unnerved in a Hatshepsut. Honestly, what kind of background music is that? Crazy Vasudans...

[BlueFlames]

Hah!

GTD Acquitaine
Officers & Crew:  1,000 (approx)
Orchestra:  9,000 (approx)

At least you know that the vasudans are doing something aboard their warships besides composing music.  Granted, that something might involve decapitation of all terrans somehow involving wet herrings, but warships are supposed to be all about killing, right?