Author Topic: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?  (Read 38044 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
How do you even know they wanted Capella to go supernova? The fact that several Sathanas are rendered powerless before being destroyed by it puzzles that decision.

The loss of those Sathanes was either unexpected or expected. In any case, the Shivans sacrifice their units very often.

Then they also sacrificed every other ship in system. Some of which entered the system when there was no need to.

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Then why do ships continue to enter Capella in spite of the Shivans not encountering almost any oposition?

There's an opposition! The Colossus and many other GTVA vessels, plus plenties of fighter and bomber squadrons. And some Shivan forces attempted to penetrate in GTVA space. It wasn't an invasion force, they simply wanted to kill civilians. Or they simply realized that remaining in Capella, with the imminent supernova, was stupid.

And who knows what the freighters that appear in Their Finest Hour were carrying? Maybe something that would have ensured the survival of the Sathanes that powered down.

The GTVA fleet wasn't engaging the Shivans directly. Hence there was no oposition. Unless you plan to tell me the GTVA fleet were engaging the Sathanas armada.

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If you start excusing things as "coincidences" or "gameplay choices" you get nowhere. I can also say that :v: decided not to show any more destroyers for "gameplay choices" or that they wanted the player to worry more about the 80+ Sathanas armada instead of the 100+ destroyers supporting it or that they didn't want to make BOE missions to lag the player's computer, etc...

But Petrarch mentioned an big Juggernaut fleet, and nothing else. This leads me to think that the number of Shivan destroyers in Capella was "regular". Nothing out of the ordinary.

Petrarch also says "We've halted the Shivan advance.". And I don't see you mentioning that when you say the Shivans didn't want to venture further into GTVA space.

Regarding the destroyer count in Capella, you have a 80+ juggernaught fleet and a 80+ destroyer fleet. Would you focus on the larger threat or on the smaller threat? When he says a 80+ juggernaught fleet he must be including it's support vessels. He ignores the fighters on the Sathanas' fighterbays for a reason...
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
1) Again, they don't really care about their losses. If losing a Moloch means taking down an Argo, the Shivans are fine;

2) But the Shivans realized that there was no opposition when they entered the system. They chose their assault force at least a few days before. And they couldn't monitor Terran or Vasudan movements in other places than the nebula;

3) Because the attacking force, though small for Shivan standards, was fearsome for the GTVA;

4) We can't be sure of the fact that there were 80+ destroyers. The immense number of spacecraft at the disposal of the Sathanas fleet was enough to irritate the GTVA. If there were so many destroyers, why do we see only two of them in the last missions? A Demon or a Ravana could have attacked the Bastion, for example. And we know that the Bastion's group was decimated by fighter and bomber wings, possibly launched from the Juggernauts.

Command would have hardly accepted the risk of sending in the Bastions with 80+ Shivan destroyers lurking around. The Shivan fleet had two purposes: to destroy civilians and to engage as many GTVA forces as possible, so that the Supernova would have done the rest.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
2) But the Shivans realized that there was no opposition when they entered the system. They chose their assault force at least a few days before. And they couldn't monitor Terran or Vasudan movements in other places than the nebula;

How do you know that?

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4) We can't be sure of the fact that there were 80+ destroyers. The immense number of spacecraft at the disposal of the Sathanas fleet was enough to irritate the GTVA. If there were so many destroyers, why do we see only two of them in the last missions? A Demon or a Ravana could have attacked the Bastion, for example. And we know that the Bastion's group was decimated by fighter and bomber wings, possibly launched from the Juggernauts.

Command would have hardly accepted the risk of sending in the Bastions with 80+ Shivan destroyers lurking around. The Shivan fleet had two purposes: to destroy civilians and to engage as many GTVA forces as possible, so that the Supernova would have done the rest.

If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

Also, why would Command hardly accepted the risk of sending in the Bastion with 80+ destroyers around if they accepted it when there was already a definite 80+ juggernaughts in the system? Command would have to deploy the Bastion no matter what the risk was. The survival of the entire GTVA was on the line.

Also, how do you know the Shivans motives?
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Petrarch also says "We've halted the Shivan advance.". And I don't see you mentioning that when you say the Shivans didn't want to venture further into GTVA space.

Of course...by collapsing the node the shivans can't come... That's what's ment under "shivan advance"..not that they had a fleet of 100 destroyers. For they had no idea what the shivans were planing. As far as GTVA knew, the shivans were doing "something" and that Sath armada could rush in their core systems as soon as tehy were finished with the something..

IF the shivans really planned to blow up the star they would NEED the jugs in there to blow it up, however, they wouldn't need destroyers..what for? The jugs can handle themselves and have more than enough fighters and bomber on board. Some other shivan ships were in the system, probably to harass the GTVA, to keep them busy while the Saths were doing their job, bit no where is it even indicated it's a big destroyer armada.

Shivans may have no problem with sacrificing their own, but not even they are crazy enough to sacrifice 10 times more ships than they actually need.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Petrarch also says "We've halted the Shivan advance.". And I don't see you mentioning that when you say the Shivans didn't want to venture further into GTVA space.

Of course...by collapsing the node the shivans can't come... That's what's ment under "shivan advance"..not that they had a fleet of 100 destroyers. For they had no idea what the shivans were planing. As far as GTVA knew, the shivans were doing "something" and that Sath armada could rush in their core systems as soon as tehy were finished with the something..

If they halted the shivan advance, it would mean there was an advance to begin with. Hence they may have had ventured further if nothing was done at all.

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IF the shivans really planned to blow up the star they would NEED the jugs in there to blow it up, however, they wouldn't need destroyers..what for? The jugs can handle themselves and have more than enough fighters and bomber on board. Some other shivan ships were in the system, probably to harass the GTVA, to keep them busy while the Saths were doing their job, bit no where is it even indicated it's a big destroyer armada.

There is also no indication of a 3rd fleet (and possibly more) being blown to bits, but we still assume it to be in the system. And since the GTVA avoided the Sathanas and the Sathanas avoided the GTVA it means someone had to have been engaging the GTVA and gaining the upper hand.

Also, if you mention a big ship chances are you also are mentioning it's escort, the contents of it's fighterbays, etc... Unless you also believe that the 80+ Sathanas fleet was fighterless.

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Shivans may have no problem with sacrificing their own, but not even they are crazy enough to sacrifice 10 times more ships than they actually need.

Then why engage the GTVA at all? Why even launch fighters and bombers if they could have continued to stare at Capella?
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bluelotus

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
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If they halted the shivan advance, it would mean there was an advance to begin with. Hence they may have had ventured further if nothing was done at all.

Wouldn't you call 80 jugs marching into Capella a shivan advance?

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
It's not much of an advance if all they do is stare at the nearest star.

Also, the "we" part of "We've halted the Shivan advance" would then be a bit egotistical.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
If they halted the shivan advance, it would mean there was an advance to begin with. Hence they may have had ventured further if nothing was done at all.

The 80 sathanases marching into the next system and blowing IT up IS the advance. And the jugs fighters and bombers weren't sitting idel either - tehy harrased the GTVA trought Capella. THAT is the advance.


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IF the shivans really planned to blow up the star they would NEED the jugs in there to blow it up, however, they wouldn't need destroyers..what for? The jugs can handle themselves and have more than enough fighters and bomber on board. Some other shivan ships were in the system, probably to harass the GTVA, to keep them busy while the Saths were doing their job, bit no where is it even indicated it's a big destroyer armada.

There is also no indication of a 3rd fleet (and possibly more) being blown to bits, but we still assume it to be in the system. And since the GTVA avoided the Sathanas and the Sathanas avoided the GTVA it means someone had to have been engaging the GTVA and gaining the upper hand.

Also, if you mention a big ship chances are you also are mentioning it's escort, the contents of it's fighterbays, etc... Unless you also believe that the 80+ Sathanas fleet was fighterless.

It's HQ was in Capella, where else would the 3rd Fleet be? :wtf:

Also, when mentioning a destroyer/jug, it's fighter complements is automaticly included as it's a integral part of that ship.
Any extra escorts are NOT.
If you recall, GTVA often sends destroyers alone (fighters included) and sometimes it sends aditional ships with it.


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Then why engage the GTVA at all? Why even launch fighters and bombers if they could have continued to stare at Capella?

To keep the GTVA from interefering with the staring? Maby they just enjoy causing havoc.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

Battle Of Endor SyndromeTM?

To keep the GTVA from interefering with the staring? Maby they just enjoy causing havoc.

:yes:

FreeSpace is a game, the bad guys are all supposed to play their role. Supernova or not, they attack the GTVA. Full stop.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

We do, in the ending cutscene.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Given that the GTVA was pulling out of Capella, and the last transports were allready on their way, I'd assume the bulk of hte GTVA fleet was either on the other side of the node, blockading, or on their way back.. probably both
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Agreed! also i  believe that petrach was peaking a lot more in general when refering to We've stopped..." then anyone believes i mean i believe it is a lot more plausible he was refering to the GTVA meaning terrans and the vasudans and not a pecific fleet !

This i believe would of been a more acurate asumption of what he meant to say! Something like "We terrans and vasudans stopped...." but that would be a lot more boring and not as dramatic! Remember it has to be dramatic and full of well dont know the word fo it .......tension or something!
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

Battle Of Endor SyndromeTM?

If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

We do, in the ending cutscene.

You may like to read what that was responding to instead of replying out of context.

Sarcasm is lost these days...
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
What I don't understand is why were there 2 Shivan cruisers attempting to leave the system? Remember at the end of the last mission, there were 2 Shivan cruisers trying to escape the system as well.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
You may like to read what that was responding to instead of replying out of context.

Ooops, sorry.

What I don't understand is why were there 2 Shivan cruisers attempting to leave the system? Remember at the end of the last mission, there were 2 Shivan cruisers trying to escape the system as well.

The Melchom, Bane and Thanatos.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
The Melchom, Bane and Thanatos.

The Thanatos was engaging the Lemnos. It wasn't attempting to penetrate in GTVA space...

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
well to put it another way building a collie right after the loss of capella would be a bad idea since there are some major problems to take care of! REmember the GTVA just ended 2 wars!

Amybe not in the first 5 or 7 years after capella but after that they would surely try to make new collie class warships since they have proven they can be a very very powerfull hip that the GTVA will definetely need! I think personaly they will split they ship classes in 2 ! One with huge ofensive capabilaties but with limited defence ! And one with huge defensive capabilaties but limited ofensive capabilaties. and make some sort of fleet out of these 2 classes! Also there would still be an allroud warship class but much more fewer then the ones above!
Die shivan die!!
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
No. They would have needed a new uber-warship immediately. In case of need of money, the GTVA would have taken care of private associations and "Rockefellers". Is the GTVA the most important authority? As Niccolò Machiavelli said, "Tutto è lecito". If forcing people to pay more money means having a hope of survival, one such choice can't be blamed.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
No. They would have needed a new uber-warship immediately. In case of need of money, the GTVA would have taken care of private associations and "Rockefellers". Is the GTVA the most important authority? As Niccolò Machiavelli said, "Tutto è lecito". If forcing people to pay more money means having a hope of survival, one such choice can't be blamed.

Why would they need an ubership immediately? The only threat is ****ing bandits! Forcing people to pay 10x their tax will put people in poverty. It may be for the "greater good", but raising taxes to build an uber ship just won't do.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Because another Shivan invasion was imminent. We can't believe that the Shivans come back after 30 or so years. And 10x? All civilians? No. Just hit the rich population, the ones who waste their money. Poor civilians shouldn't be affected.