Author Topic: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas  (Read 18434 times)

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Stealth technology.  The GTVA have the GTF Pegasus and GVF Ptah, as far as I know Shivans don't have such stuff (It's not like them to use stealth since all they do is brute force swarm and still get the job done).  That AWACs has potential too, if it can jam Shivan comm signals (we'd have to figure out what frequency they transmit/receive on though).

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
If they don't show stealth technology how can you say GTVA's is more advanced?  :rolleyes:  For all you know there is a stealth ship that you haven't detected.

And Shivan sensors seem to be so advanced they don't need AWACs in the nebula.
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
of course that is why theyr fighters and ships are just as afected by the nebular environment as the GTVA is! This is just ridiculous people are starting pull "canon" stuff out of their ears and sai it like its true!
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Cross species communicators or ETAK :p  Though if the shivans bothered to build one they could probably make a better one, it probably more of a case that talking to the puny race your wiping from the galaxy wasn't a priority




EDIT say A1 post and laughed>>

Quote from: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 08:48:24 AM
of course that is why theyr fighters and ships are just as afected by the nebular environment as the GTVA is! This is just ridiculous people are starting pull "canon" stuff out of their ears and sai it like its true!


Well considering they have little trouble finding, targeting, tracking and eliminating GTVA corvettes and destroyers in the nebula i would say there is support for saying they aren't affected by the Nebula
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 08:54:40 am by StarSlayer »
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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
If they don't show stealth technology how can you say GTVA's is more advanced?  :rolleyes:  For all you know there is a stealth ship that you haven't detected.

And Shivan sensors seem to be so advanced they don't need AWACs in the nebula.

I'm using logic + evidence to support my IDEAS (you can't say the Shivans are more advanced in stealth UNLESS they ACTUALLY SHOW PROOF THEY HAVE STEALTH TECHNOLOGY).  You should try too, it's good for the brain  :P

Yes, it's possible Shivans have stealth tech, but EXTREMELY unlikely, seeing as how it doesn't match their style.  Shivan tactics are quite simple actually:

-attack with several ships and fighters
-several ships + fighters die, send more ships & fighters, and bigger ones at that
-bigger ships die, send even bigger and MORE ships
-if all else fails, call in a fleet to distract and supernova the system

Their defenses seem to consist of this:

-a few wings + sentry guns guard a depot/comm relay/gas miners
-get attacked, call in more fighters
-reinforcements die, call in some more fighters and a cruiser
-still fail, sending a giant team of dragons + destroyer (or juggernaut) to wipe the attackers out

The Shivans aren't as almighty as you may believe them to be.  After all, they are only a 'symptom' of a bigger problem.  This you can't really dispute.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
The Shivans at the beginning of the game were stealthed, if not only slightly. The GTA and PVN had to make more sensitive sensors to target them.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
I'm using logic + evidence to support my IDEAS (you can't say the Shivans are more advanced in stealth UNLESS they ACTUALLY SHOW PROOF THEY HAVE STEALTH TECHNOLOGY).  You should try too, it's good for the brain  :P You mean you are using logic + LACK of evidence to support your ideas? Again, if the Shivans don't show a stealth fighter how can you tell if the GTVA has more advanced technology regarding it? Note I'm not saying the Shivans have better stealth tech, I'm asking how do you know that the GTVA is more advanced in that area.

Yes, it's possible Shivans have stealth tech, but EXTREMELY unlikely, seeing as how it doesn't match their style.  Shivan tactics are quite simple actually:

-attack with several ships and fighters
-several ships + fighters die, send more ships & fighters, and bigger ones at that
-bigger ships die, send even bigger and MORE ships
-if all else fails, call in a fleet to distract and supernova the system

Their defenses seem to consist of this:

-a few wings + sentry guns guard a depot/comm relay/gas miners
-get attacked, call in more fighters
-reinforcements die, call in some more fighters and a cruiser
-still fail, sending a giant team of dragons + destroyer (or juggernaut) to wipe the attackers out

The Shivans aren't as almighty as you may believe them to be.  After all, they are only a 'symptom' of a bigger problem.  This you can't really dispute.From the player's perspective they ARE almighty. They have advantage in technology, numbers, and pretty much everything. They blew up a freaking star FFS.
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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Well if that's how you're going to argue, then since officially the largest Shivan warship is a Sathanas, that would mean you can't say their technology is leaps and bounds better than the GTVA.

At best they have a subspace superweapon that takes 80+ juggernauts several days to power up, and they have BFReds that aren't well defended (2 LRFlaks don't cut it vs. Helios torpedoes at close range), they have better subspace jump abilities since they can use unstable nodes, but I don't see how they have better fighters or weaponry (they always go for the swarm approach, I've never seen them fight one-to-one against their GTVA equivalent and win).

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Well if that's how you're going to argue, then since officially the largest Shivan warship is a Sathanas, that would mean you can't say their technology is leaps and bounds better than the GTVA. Why not? Ships size does not equal technology. They have better sensors, better weapons, better ships...

At best they have a subspace superweapon that takes 80+ juggernauts several days to power up, and they have BFReds that aren't well defended (2 LRFlaks don't cut it vs. Helios torpedoes at close range), they have better subspace jump abilities since they can use unstable nodes, but I don't see how they have better fighters or weaponry (they always go for the swarm approach, I've never seen them fight one-to-one against their GTVA equivalent and win). Take the player out of the equation and then say that again.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
The Shivans at the beginning of the game were stealthed, if not only slightly. The GTA and PVN had to make more sensitive sensors to target them.

Nope.. The GTVA had no knowledge of shivan electronics at that point and had trouble aquireing lock.
They stil lshowed up on their radar. Stealths don't appear at all.
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Offline Snail

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
They stil lshowed up on their radar. Stealths don't appear at all.

The Shivans at the beginning of the game were stealthed, if not only slightly. The GTA and PVN had to make more sensitive sensors to target them.

 
Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Read my post carefully.  I never said the GTVA had equal tech to the Shivans.  I said the Shivan technology isn't so far advanced that it makes them like gods.  In fact, the only reason the GTVA had to cut off Capella was because they had numbers.  1 for 1 the Sathanas is superior to the Colossus, but only in terms of anti-capship when its forward facing.

My FRED simulations of AI GTVA vs. Shivan fighters ALWAYS ends up with GTVA victories when equal numbers.  In fact, I made 4 wings of Shivan fighters (Basilisk, Dragon, Mara, Astaroth) each with 10 waves, and 3 wings of GTVA fighters (Myrmidon, Herc 2, Perseus) with 10 wings each, by the end all Shivans are dead with the GTVA on its 7th or 8th wave.  I fly a stealth fighter and put myself far from combat so 'Alpha 1' doesn't interfere  :lol:

 

Offline Snail

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
That's the thing. The Shivans have the numbers. But they also have the tech! Can the GTVA blow up starses?

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Fang_Taichou, what dificulty and AI level do you use? I find that very hard to believe.
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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Default AI for both is Captain, I set the diff to medium.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Set [the difficulty] to Insane for auto-battles, it makes for more competent AI.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Not to mention in Medium the hostile AI has a disadvantage regarding fire delay.
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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Just ran the FRED simulation on Insane, these are the results:

-3 wings on each side, 10 waves each

Astaroth vs. Perseus, Perseus wins with 1 wave remaining

Mara vs. Myrmidon, 1 wave remaining for Myrmidon

Basilisk vs. Hercules Mark II, Hercules wins with a whopping 7 waves standing by.

Shivans don't really have better fighters, especially their 'heavy assault' types (Especially the Basilisk, don't know why the Shivans bother using them in large numbers)

Oh I forgot to add, the GTVA fighters were equipped with beginner weaponry (i.e. no Kaysers, Trebs, Prometheus S, Maxims, or Morningstars...etc.)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 10:29:12 am by Fang_Taichou »

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Actually, I find the Basilisk' table entry a bit punitive. It was supposed to be a fighter resistant to GTVA's weapons...it's not. :blah:

 
Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Well I ran the FRED simulation a second time, these are the results:

5 wings each now, still 10 waves per wing

Astaroth vs. Perseus, Perseus wins with 4 wings on standby

Mara vs. Myrmidon, Myrmidon wins with no waves remaining

Basilisk vs. Herc 2, Herc 2 still wins with 7 waves leftover for use

The 2 new matchups are to see how the new technologies fare up against Shivans (the above 3 matchups had the same wpns loadout as the first test)

SF Mara vs. SF Mara (terrans), the Terran version wins with 6 waves ready for use (these guys have Kaysers + harpoons)

Dragon vs. Erinyes, Erinyes wins with 3 waves remaining (dual Kaysers + harpoons)

I'd conclude that on average, 1 for 1, GTVA fighters are better.  Shivans however, don't care and just zerg you with swarms of fighters to rip you open, thereby negating the small design advantages of the GTVA.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 11:15:30 am by Fang_Taichou »