[Sarafan]

So everyone just keeps saying that the Shivans are this and that and that they have better beams, armor, numbers, Juggernauts, etc, etc. But I ask you, what advantages does the GTVA has over the Shivans? Think hard and answer!

One of the advantages I think they have is weapons placement, specially anti-capship weapons. The GTVA seems to employ more power on broadsides, the Orion being the best example, and that's the best way to engage shivan warships. The Shivans rely too much on frontal firepower to take down other ships and while their better beams might easily take out enemy ships at the beginning of a battle, if a ship manages to maneuver out of their limited arc or to start the battle by engaging them side by side, the Shivans would most likely lose. Two exceptions being the Lilith and Cain, of course but only them.

[Shade]

Anti-fighter capability. Shivan ships are generally very poor in that area compared to GTVA ships. Also their fighter-based primaries are far worse than the high-end GTVA weapons.

[TrashMan]

GTVA has:
 - better pilots
 - rearm ships
 - better AF defenses
 - better weapon coverage (in general)
 - better intelligence
 - better tactics

[Sarafan]

- better intelligence
 - better tactics

Why do you say better intelligence and tatics? On FS1 the Lucifer outmaneuvered the GTA fleet to attack Vasuda Prime, that show the shivans know how to think at least.

[Shade]

Didn't we agree on a moratorium on "Alpha 1!!!!" and "Command is stupid!!!" arguments a while back, or was I just dreaming?

[Bob-san]

The GTVA might not be a tactical genius, but they're not stupid! The Shivans have had a more strait-forward plan, or so it seems. I would say the GTVA has planning and fighter superiority--the Terran and Vasudan pilots tend to have superior fighter skills.

[TrashMan]

- better intelligence
 - better tactics

Why do you say better intelligence and tatics? On FS1 the Lucifer outmaneuvered the GTA fleet to attack Vasuda Prime, that show the shivans know how to think at least.

Becosue we study them, learn from them, adapt. We gather info on their ships and weapons, we steal from them.

And the only reason Lucifer outmanuvered the GTA fleet was becosue it could use jump nodes they couldn't and they didn't know it at that time.

[foolfromhell]

- better intelligence

Are you serious??

[TrashMan]

- better intelligence

Are you serious??

Everyone knows how stupid Command is!!

 

[Hippo]

Didn't we agree on a moratorium on "Alpha 1!!!!" and "Command is stupid!!!" arguments a while back, or was I just dreaming?

We did.

[foolfromhell]

- better intelligence

Are you serious??

Everyone knows how stupid Command is!!

 

Yeah. I forgot about the ban on Command jokes, so I deleted that part.

[Hippo]

- better intelligence

Are you serious??

Everyone knows how stupid Command is!!

 

Yeah. I forgot about the ban on Command jokes, so I deleted that part.

deleted and quoted at the same time... contradicting much?

[foolfromhell]

- better intelligence

I quoted what someone else quoted.

 

Yeah. I forgot about the ban on Command jokes, so I deleted that part.

deleted and quoted at the same time... contradicting much?

I quoted what someone ELSE quoted.

[Jeff Vader]

Pointless Alpha 1 comment deleted. Pardons, I'm not the most stable person around.

But seriously. Adapting to new situations is an advantage. The Ancients couldn't do that and for that reason were (presumably) obliterated. Terrans and Vasudans didn't waste time when they encountered Shivans. They immediately began to collect information about shields and weapons while also observing the Shivans' actions and trying to find weaknesses or flaws in their actions.

I do think that Shivans are also capable of adapting but not necessary on a scale as large as the GTVA. Take Their Finest Hour, for example. The Shivans did figure out that mere cruisers and fighters weren't sufficient in destroying the Colossus and the accompanying battle group, so they sent the Beast and eventually even one Sathanas. Still, from what I've understood, they don't make any complex battle plans or strategies that the GTVA does.

[Ghostavo]

Why do the Shivans need to adapt? They don't seem to have any problem doing whatever they want to do.

[Dark Hunter]

They had a problem killing the GTVA.

[Jeff Vader]

Why do the Shivans need to adapt? They don't seem to have any problem doing whatever they want to do.

Well, adapting would be useful for example in the age-old 'Colossus vs Sathanas' scenario in the event that a Sathanas would appear somewhere around GTVA space. If the Colossus or basically any ship with decent firepower was to jump behind the Sathanas, it would be safe to assume that the Shivans would be pretty much like:
"Oh, bum grapes. Now what? We have no appropriate rear weapons."
"I dunno. How 'bout turning? Should we try that?"
"Well, it takes an awful lot of time, but ok. I guess there aren't any options."

And at the same time the GTVA would be kicking the living daylight of the Sath.

[Ghostavo]

They had a problem killing the GTVA.

Considering they had over 80 Sathanas at the GTVA's doorstep and didn't even bother to flood the rest of GTVA space with their armada, somehow I can't really see that as an issue.

Well, adapting would be useful for example in the age-old 'Colossus vs Sathanas' scenario in the event that a Sathanas would appear somewhere around GTVA space. If the Colossus or basically any ship with decent firepower was to jump behind the Sathanas, it would be safe to assume that the Shivans would be pretty much like:
"Oh, bum grapes. Now what? We have no appropriate rear weapons."
"I dunno. How 'bout turning? Should we try that?"
"Well, it takes an awful lot of time, but ok. I guess there aren't any options."

And at the same time the GTVA would be kicking the living daylight of the Sath.

Explain why the Colossus sometimes has trouble against the Sathanas in High Noon then if you don't disable all the beam turrets. Hell, if it were that simple why even disarm the Sathanas at all?

It takes an eternity for the Colossus to destroy the Sathanas even with their beams being overcharged. The Sathanas has more than enough time to turn (which surprisingly isn't as slow as people make it out to be) and do what it does.

[Dark Hunter]

They had a problem killing the GTVA.

Considering they had over 80 Sathanas at the GTVA's doorstep and didn't even bother to flood the rest of GTVA space with their armada, somehow I can't really see that as an issue.

I meant in FS1.

Yeah they would have annihilated the GTVA with the Saths... but they didn't even try, so I say that is moot.

[Jeff Vader]

I still think that the Shivans didn't quite know what to do in High Noon. The Sathanas had two working forward beam cannons at max, and it was facing the Colossus and a bomber wing. IF they knew how to adapt or anything, they would have done something else than launch a couple of fighter wings and just keep on going forward.