[Vip]

A Meson bomb is much, much bigger than an Ursa.

Give the meson a cockpit and some decent thrusters

Do you want to pilot it

*Raises hand*I will!

You see ? There are always volunteers

[TrashMan]

Oh well, maybe if it was close...

It's really hard to judge; we would need to compare the energies of both beams and meson bombs. Unfortunately, the guys didn't give us those data

But surely, even a Lucy wouldn't survive being rammed by an Orion packed with mesons

EH? A single Meson bomb does more damage then 4BFReds...check the values used in FS2 missions..

Sath HP = Collie HP = Knossos HP = 1000000

3 mesons took out the Knososs...the Sath needs to fire 5-6 times to kill the Collie..need I say more?

[Mobius]

Yes. The Knossos' HP are fake.

[Hades]

It may be half that though.

[Vip]

Oh well, maybe if it was close...

It's really hard to judge; we would need to compare the energies of both beams and meson bombs. Unfortunately, the guys didn't give us those data

But surely, even a Lucy wouldn't survive being rammed by an Orion packed with mesons

EH? A single Meson bomb does more damage then 4BFReds...check the values used in FS2 missions..

Sath HP = Collie HP = Knossos HP = 1000000

3 mesons took out the Knososs...the Sath needs to fire 5-6 times to kill the Collie..need I say more?

Ain't that a tad too much of in-game mechanics ? This can't be really trusted. Example:

4 BFReds hits the "nose" of an Orion. What happens ?
In-game - the Orion blows up.
In-universe - the Orion has its nose vaporized, but otherwise should be still intact.

[Gamma_Draconis]

In-universe, the Orion becomes rendered useless because it just lost a huge chunk of itself and is probably very instable.
In-game, the Orion becomes rendered useless because its about to explode from losing a huge chunk of itself.

Both outcome have a chance that the Orion will explode. Depends really on what part of the ship is hit but a fatal hit will probably render the ship useless either way.

[Vip]

In-universe, the Orion becomes rendered useless because it just lost a huge chunk of itself and is probably very instable.
In-game, the Orion becomes rendered useless because its about to explode from losing a huge chunk of itself.

Both outcome have a chance that the Orion will explode. Depends really on what part of the ship is hit but a fatal hit will probably render the ship useless either way.

Umm, when I said nose, I meant like the first 5 metres of it I don't think that losing such a "chunk" would really affect a 2,1 km long ship... Yeah, I know that's very extreme case, but it shows how the game mechanics work.

[Mobius]

If the Sathanas is in front of the Orion and it fires its BFReds on the "nose", well...

In-Universe, the beams penetrate the hull, kill most crewmen, disrupt most systems...and the Orion is destroyed;

In-game, the Orion is destroyed.

[Vip]

*Vip drawns in the vast ocean of his stupidity*

The front of the Sathanas is pointed to the side of the Orion. The distance is about... 5-10 clicks. The Sathanas fires it's four BFReds, all of which hit exactly the same spot - the nose of the Orion. Because of the angle of the attack, only the spot which was hit by the beams gets vaporized. The Orions nose is vaporized, however the beams do not make any further damage. The Orion is still mostly intact (unless Cyclops/Helios/whatever was stored somewhere nearby )

My point being - in game, it doesn't really matter where you hit; the beam hitting the nose of an Orion or the center of the hull still brings down the same amount of HP. In reality, a beam hitting nose would only destroy it, whereas hitting the center would cause massive damage ala FS2 intro.

[Gamma_Draconis]

I wonder how it would be like if someone detonated a Meson bomb right in front of an Orion. An in-universe example of course. In-game example would probably = Orion dead or Orion heavily damaged.

[Fang_Taichou]

*Vip drawns in the vast ocean of his stupidity*

The front of the Sathanas is pointed to the side of the Orion. The distance is about... 5-10 clicks. The Sathanas fires it's four BFReds, all of which hit exactly the same spot - the nose of the Orion. Because of the angle of the attack, only the spot which was hit by the beams gets vaporized. The Orions nose is vaporized, however the beams do not make any further damage. The Orion is still mostly intact (unless Cyclops/Helios/whatever was stored somewhere nearby )

My point being - in game, it doesn't really matter where you hit; the beam hitting the nose of an Orion or the center of the hull still brings down the same amount of HP. In reality, a beam hitting nose would only destroy it, whereas hitting the center would cause massive damage ala FS2 intro.

If you wanted to design ships to behave more realistically to damage, then follow a similar example with the NTF Boadicea (that asteroid base in the 2nd FS2 mission with the Iceni inside).  Mod the ship to have several destructable sections on the exterior, so that if they get hit, then it breaks off and further attacks will no longer deal damage to it (like the asteroid chunks that come off the base).  Have the vital sections force death of the warship upon destruction, regardless of integrity of other areas.

So let's say the Orion was modded this way, the beams pierce the tip of the ship, causing that section to break off from the vessel (forward section modded to be a subsystem with destructable component, further attacks pass through empty space).  If a beam pierces a main section (not modded as a subsystem, so it'll go up when hull reaches 0%) then let the ship die, no matter if the non-vitals are intact or not.

Gamma D., blowing up a Meson bomb in front of that Orion would send shockwaves through the ship, pretty much wrecking the hull and its interior and killing its crew inside.

[Vip]

Well, as always, much depends on the placing of the bomb. It's different in fron, and diiferent o sides, and stuff like that. Also, does anybody know on what basis does the Meson bomb work ? Is it generating massive heat ? Anti-matter ? Pure energy ? Anti-matter would surely just vaporate a big chunk of the Orion. Pure energy similar, but on a smaller scale. Massive heat would prolly melt down the sections it faces, but they could be still salvagable.

[Vip]

If you wanted to design ships to behave more realistically to damage, then follow a similar example with the NTF Boadicea (that asteroid base in the 2nd FS2 mission with the Iceni inside).  Mod the ship to have several destructable sections on the exterior, so that if they get hit, then it breaks off and further attacks will no longer deal damage to it (like the asteroid chunks that come off the base).  Have the vital sections force death of the warship upon destruction, regardless of integrity of other areas.

Yeah, that's one of the very few things I miss in the Freespace. If only I had any 3D/modelling/designing/graphical/ANY skills...

[woutersmits]

but you have many gtva units engouh to destory the enemy main base we must destory the enemy main base and then it would be ends the shivans terrans and vasudans

[AlphaOne]

to answear the question i do not belive the shivans are playng games with the GTVA but rather at least to me it seems they are rather pushing the GTVA further and further ahead.


Tech society everything. I belive the shivans took note of the Colossus and decided the GTVA is on the right path perhaps! Remember they are the great destroyers but also the great preservers. I mean it was an unprecedented feat of cooperation on the part of the GTVA to evacuate the capella star sistem where both terran and vasudan civilians were! Also there are a lot of alliance warships fighting toghether in this war. The best example of terran and vasudan cooperation is perhaps the GTVA Colossus perhaps they took notice of it and said

"well these guis are on the right path for survival what do you say we call it a night and get the hell out of here"

of course another one could of said :"hey while were at it why dont we take some snacks with us AKA capella supernova " since well shivans to me it seems kinda need the nebulas for mining etc.

Also perhaps the shivans were kinda preparing the GTVA for a much more catastrophic war. This is just speculation on the whole "bigger problem" thing.

[Fang_Taichou]

to answear the question i do not belive the shivans are playng games with the GTVA but rather at least to me it seems they are rather pushing the GTVA further and further ahead.


Tech society everything. I belive the shivans took note of the Colossus and decided the GTVA is on the right path perhaps! Remember they are the great destroyers but also the great preservers. I mean it was an unprecedented feat of cooperation on the part of the GTVA to evacuate the capella star sistem where both terran and vasudan civilians were! Also there are a lot of alliance warships fighting toghether in this war. The best example of terran and vasudan cooperation is perhaps the GTVA Colossus perhaps they took notice of it and said

"well these guis are on the right path for survival what do you say we call it a night and get the hell out of here"

of course another one could of said :"hey while were at it why dont we take some snacks with us AKA capella supernova " since well shivans to me it seems kinda need the nebulas for mining etc.

Also perhaps the shivans were kinda preparing the GTVA for a much more catastrophic war. This is just speculation on the whole "bigger problem" thing.

No, they could care less that the humans and vasudans joined forces.  The Shivans simply kill anything that isn't one of their kind, and if they were really 'preservers', then they'd invest some time and resources into a universal translator to try and negotiate with species first, rather than go Kill-on-Sight to every non-Shivan they meet (as far as we know, it was the Ancients who first tried to communicate with the Shivans, since ETAK was created using Ancient artifacts stolen by Bosch).

I view Shivans as machines who get the job done.  They were given enough sentience to carry out their assigned tasks, but not much more than that.  I doubt the Shivans view the GTVA as anything more than another species to be disposed of (although we don't know whether the Shivans are engaged with 'greater' enemies, which could explain them not giving much effort to wiping out the GTVA).

[Vip]

On topic - well, in FS1 the Shivans where definitely not toying with the GTVA. Were they a scout, splinter or the main fleet, they went to kill Terrans and Vasudans. And they nearly succeeded. GTA surely would have been defeated if not for their cooperation with the Vasudans and discovery of Ancient ruins.

However, in FS2, the situation is different. The conflict in nebula was IMO more of a defence. And the so-many-times-discussed issue of the Sathanas fleet. Even one or two of them would be more than enough to pulverize the remains of the GTVA fleet, so that the Shivans could easily destroy system after system. However, just as Petrarch said, "their motives remain unknown". I believe that the hint in the outro, about the Shivans being exiles, may be at least partialy true. The wouldn't put it there only to tease the player

On another note:
Two sentences from the FS1 outro are really interesting.

"Long had we been the destroyers. Our turn has nearly come."

This could mean obviously that it's nearly our turn to be destroyed, but on the other hand... The sentences just before the ones I quoted are talking about the Shivans as the preservers. And later, the lines about T/V war... "(...) we learnt how to adapt, we learned how to study the enemy, we learned how to overcome, we learned how to survive."

Isn't this somehow a hint that the Terrans (w/ or w/o Vasudans) are to become the next preservers ?

[TrashMan]

Yes. The Knossos' HP are fake.

Oh? Where did that piece of information come? Devine intervention?
Unless you can find a [V] quote that things in tables shouldn' be takes as canon, you're comment is pretty much worthless..

Ain't that a tad too much of in-game mechanics ? This can't be really trusted. Example:

4 BFReds hits the "nose" of an Orion. What happens ?
In-game - the Orion blows up.
In-universe - the Orion has its nose vaporized, but otherwise should be still intact.

HP's are a general abstaraction of toughness....but they are still valid as tehy give you an approximate feel for just how string a ship is.
That said, this is a game, and some things can't be displayed perfectly (alltouhg I belive we now can make ships with big chunks blown off them), but basic ship data isn't one of them. (aside from the armor...untill the armor.tbls are fully done)
What are you gonna argue next? Lack of newtonian physics in-game?

[CB]

THe problem here is that there is litle inf on the Shivans.
They are Xenocidal, they are cybernetic, maybe even engineered.
But, how did the Sathie fleet tied in with the lucis?
was a lucy Fleet that did the ancients? the whole thng with the shields seems to be, specially since the lucy's shields were qualitatively different from the fighter based versions.

actually, the big question is, do shivans adapt? if the differences between FS1 and FS2 are because they realized how vulnerable could the lucys e... their industrial capability is nothing short of monstrous.
of course, maybe the lucy flets are rovering bands that go for decapitation strikes against other sentients and the sathys and co are tasked with other functions. and we can't even beguin guessing why they decided to turn Capella nova.
Though, I do have an idea about that. we know, more or less, that shivans are not planetbound (at least the ancients seemed to think so) what if cooking off Capella was their way of "Shivaforming"? remember the Nebula? thousands of years old, those were bosch words (sure he gave a higer upper limit, but also mentioned the thing in a what if it was witnessed by the Pharaos...

(course, if that's the case, those knossos portals are tough as nails)

As a counterpoint, yeah, the mission beyond the nebula was beyond the nebula. so maybe not, or only certain stars could go though the process... who knows. maybe they are making galactic art and are very sensitive to critics...

[Wobble73]

So that's the bigger picture! The galaxy is the Shivans universal Etch-a-Sketch. Making a star (Capella) go nova is how they shake the thing to wipe the picture. Then the can continue to draw pretty constellation pictures, oooh look, that ones a dragon, and that one's a bear. They're making a giant dot to dot just for us on Earth/Terra.