[admiral_wolf]

I don't think that many Sathanas' were lost.  Before the star exploded, many of them jumped to Subspace.  Given that the GTVA know that the Shivans know much more than us about Subspace, it could be that the Shivans knew of a node near the star, or are capable of inter-system jumps without the need for a node.

[Dark Hunter]

No, not that many Sathanes were lost, I'll agree, but a large number of destroyers, cruisers, corvettes were lost to the star's explosion as well.

[Marcus Vesper]

Yes, most of the Sathanas vessels seemed to jump out via whatever it was they did to Capella, but they did lose more then a few.  And that's highly disturbing when you stop to think about it.  The fact that they have over 80 Sathanas class vessels is pretty terrifying all by itself, but evidence that they consider it expendable?  It makes me wonder what they have that we haven't seen, or if there are thousands of those vessels.

As for Capella's destruction acting as a victory beacon?  That seems rather far fetched, considering Shivan vessels were still fighting us when they triggered the Supernova, and the fleet didn't bother to advance any further into GTVA space then Capella in the first place.  True, they had us scrambling to retreat in the face of an overwhelming force that could have easily destroyed the GTVA (Let's face it, had they acted like the Lucifer fleet we'd all be dead), but there wasn't any victory of substance for them to mark.  I think it's a pretty safe assumption that they blew up Capella for a different reason entirely.

[TrashMan]

My observation of that ani leads me to conclude that around 20 Saths were lost, if not more.

Either a massive f*** up by hte shivans or Saths are REALYL expendable.

[castor]

..or they had no other choice

[Snail]

Have I posted my theory in this thread yet? Snail's Theory

As for Bosch, he turned into a happy-slapping chav after being abducted.

[Admiral FooF]

I agree with Admiral Wolf, only a few juggernauts were lost (as seen from the cutscene). The Destroyers, Corvettes, and other ships caught in the supernova were, as many have said, expendable.

Now then, in response to Marcus Vesper, you could have stuck a fork in the GTVA prior to Capella because they were done. They knew it, the Shivans knew it, and anyone watching the conflict would know it, too. Even if the GTVA would have fought to the bitter end, victory was assured the moment the Colossus went down. A single Sathanas destroyed most of a GTVA fleet (remarked if you fail to get all beam cannons in Bearbaiting) by itself so the chances of the GTVA somehow taking down even a few juggernauts with Destroyers and Bombers borders the impossible. Even if the Shivans knew that the Capella nodes were being collapsed, they could still plant their flag in Terran-Vasudan space and know they own that territory.

I read Snail's Theory and like it, though I add a caveat to the whole Hive-mind thing (which somewhat resembles Warhammer 40k's Tyranids). While I agree the Shivans are Hive-minded, they were created that way to serve as the ultimate fighting force. They will always win the war of attrition because they have no morale to break, they outnumber their foes 10:1 and they have technology that rivals or surpasses everything they encounter. They are relentless.

On the other hand, I believe they're on a leash. It wasn't until the Ancients began conquering the galaxy and raising hell via subspace that the Shivan hounds were released. With tech that rivaled the Shivans, the Ancients put up a fight but they never had a chance to win. The same goes for the Great War with Terrans and Vasudans fighting previously and sending great fleets through subspace. It is my belief that Lucifer fleet was a slap on the hand to tell the Terrans and Vasudans to play nice and in doing so, forged an alliance between the species that also ended the war.

The Sathanas fleet incursion was merely a show of arms. The GTVA thought they were high and mighty with their flashy juggernaut and beam cannons and with all the subspace activity to crush the NTF, the Shivans were brought out again to put the Terrans and Vasudans in their place. They were not originally out to conquer Terran-Vasudan space but when the GTVA began assaulting them, they acted in self-defense. The destruction of Capella had two purposes: 1.) to crush the morale of the GTVA via a display of power and 2.) tell their masters that the mission was accomplished.

The Masters, as I have coined, are actually benevolent and the Shivans are simply their army. When Bosch communicated with the Shivans, he learned that the Shivans were not out to destroy but to subdue. The Ancients were out of control and had to be put down by the Shivans but the Terrans and Vasudans were given a chance to correct their mistakes and keep surviving. Without some kind of unseen power keeping the Shivans at bay, there is no way the GTVA would have survived as long as it did.

[MP-Ryan]

We could also point out that destroying Capella's sun by making it go supernova didn't actually cut anyone off from anything.  Capella was destroyed sure, but the complete destruction of everything in a system doesn't destroy the subspace nodes leading into and out of the system.

Subspace nodes exist only in star systems with a gravitational field.  The destruction of the star would probably collapse the nodes.

That said, Capella had 4 suns.

[Snail]

I read Snail's Theory and like it, though I add a caveat to the whole Hive-mind thing (which somewhat resembles Warhammer 40k's Tyranids). While I agree the Shivans are Hive-minded, they were created that way to serve as the ultimate fighting force. They will always win the war of attrition because they have no morale to break, they outnumber their foes 10:1 and they have technology that rivals or surpasses everything they encounter. They are relentless.

In my theory, the Shivans were a form of life that evolved (or were created) in subspace. If you've read my theory, then you'll understand Shivan background and their predicament, but what my theory really fails to answer is why the Shivans seem to be xenocidal (which is kind of stupid since that's one of the main questions for a Shivan theory to answer, but oh well). There are two possible reasons for the Shivans being xenocidal.

First: They see subspace as "territory," and nuke species which use it incorrectly or harm it (here called "subspace disturbances"). Hence, they destroyed the Ancients and countless civilizations before them who caused subspace disturbances. Going toward subspace disturbances is convenient because Shivan fleets would be able to meet up at the sites of former civilizations which caused these subspace disturbances.

Second: The Shivans were attacked by the Ancients, and so destroyed them, and were attacked by the GTI/other secret groups, and so destroyed the Terrans and Vasudans.

The Sathanas fleet incursion was merely a show of arms. The GTVA thought they were high and mighty with their flashy juggernaut and beam cannons and with all the subspace activity to crush the NTF, the Shivans were brought out again to put the Terrans and Vasudans in their place. They were not originally out to conquer Terran-Vasudan space but when the GTVA began assaulting them, they acted in self-defense. The destruction of Capella had two purposes: 1.) to crush the morale of the GTVA via a display of power and 2.) tell their masters that the mission was accomplished.

The Masters, as I have coined, are actually benevolent and the Shivans are simply their army. When Bosch communicated with the Shivans, he learned that the Shivans were not out to destroy but to subdue. The Ancients were out of control and had to be put down by the Shivans but the Terrans and Vasudans were given a chance to correct their mistakes and keep surviving. Without some kind of unseen power keeping the Shivans at bay, there is no way the GTVA would have survived as long as it did.

The existence of the masters is a possibility but it seems a little strange to nuke stars just as signs or to crush morale. Going around vaping destroyers would seem to do the latter, and using the Shivan Communication Devices (they're called "Communication Nodes" and would be used for "Communication") would succeed at the former.

In my thoery, it was Bosch who told the Shivans of the location of the other Shivan fleet. He communicated with multiple Shivan vessels who sent the word out to "Sathanas Fleet Command" to send in the Sathanes for a superjump to meet up with the Shivans on the other side. The Sathanas fleet did not destroy the GTVA because they really couldn't be bothered to kill them. I would compare the GTVA not to flies (harmless things), but to something like bees, wasps or hornets (mostly harmless things which do sting, but not kill). Meeting the Shivan fleet on the other side is a higher priority than taking out a hornet's nest.

Subspace nodes exist only in star systems with a gravitational field.  The destruction of the star would probably collapse the nodes.

I don't think so. There are nodes leading to the Shivan Nebula from Gamma Drax (though they are stabilized by a Knossos, it proves it is possible for Subspace nodes to lead back to nebulae).

[Admiral FooF]

I do like the theory Snail. Is there an endgame to it, such as all the Shivan fleets re-uniting? What happens then? (I shudder to think of the rampage that could be).

In my theory, Bosch tries to contact the Shivans but instead ends up speaking to the Masters.  Bosch does end up convincing these beings to call off the dogs but not before Capella gets nuked. It's only then does Bosch realize exactly how powerful the empire of the Masters/Shivans is.

I don't know if you guys have ever heard about the Kardashev Civilization Types before but I'd imagine such an empire would be a near-Type III. The GTVA at its height may have been at a Type 1.5 or so which means it was totally outclassed by orders of magnitude.

[Marcus Vesper]

The cutscenes from FS1 seem to indicate the Ancients attacked the Shivans first, and the existence of the Knossos would indicate they found the Shivans, not the other way around.  I'm inclined to believe the conclusion Bosch made about the Shivans and the 9 cities of Troy was incorrect. 

[Dark Hunter]

But then, the Shivans found us, and not the other way around. Which suggests they were, for whatever reason, looking for us.

[Marcus Vesper]

But then, the Shivans found us, and not the other way around. Which suggests they were, for whatever reason, looking for us.

I don't think they were looking for us so much as found us.  To explain further, I shall point you to the first post I ever made here, which outlines my theories on that subject.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18138.msg877440.html#msg877440

[Snail]

I do like the theory Snail. Is there an endgame to it, such as all the Shivan fleets re-uniting? What happens then? (I shudder to think of the rampage that could be).

Then they go away back into the flux of subspace and we all live happily ever after.

Seriously though, when the Shivans get back together, they'd start re-expanding their empire and reopen the Supernodes.

The cutscenes from FS1 seem to indicate the Ancients attacked the Shivans first, and the existence of the Knossos would indicate they found the Shivans, not the other way around.  I'm inclined to believe the conclusion Bosch made about the Shivans and the 9 cities of Troy was incorrect. 

Both of them could've been moving, and met somewhere in the middle. Then there was some fighting and the Shivans won. I find it impossible to believe that a species as powerful as the Shivans wouldn't have been for a long, long time. How could a species capable of mustering 80 juggernauts, and considering them expendable, only be around for the time of the Ancients?

But then, the Shivans found us, and not the other way around. Which suggests they were, for whatever reason, looking for us.

They wanted to know who was dicking around with subspace there.

I don't think they were looking for us so much as found us.  To explain further, I shall point you to the first post I ever made here, which outlines my theories on that subject.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18138.msg877440.html#msg877440

The question that always sticks in my mind is one that none of these non-canonical theories about the Shivans ever seems to address:  Why did the Shivans wait 30 years to send a follow up force, and why didn't they reappear in the systems they first attacked?  The Ancients believed they had trespassed, overstepped their bounds somehow.  From the voice over narration, it doesn't sound as if the Shivans found them, but the other way around.  Their empire was greater then the limits of known space, and yet most of the jump nodes (admittedly not ALL of them) that are not already known are too unstable for any but the masters of subspace travel (The Shivans).   It seems patently obvious when the Knossos is first unveiled:  This was the mechanism the Ancients used to stretch their empire across more worlds then man currently knows.  The discovery of a second and then 3rd Knossos cements that.

Answering that question as well as the technological gaps between the first and second fleets is one of the major questions that is answered in my theory.

[TrashMan]

I agree with Admiral Wolf, only a few juggernauts were lost (as seen from the cutscene). The Destroyers, Corvettes, and other ships caught in the supernova were, as many have said, expendable.

My analyisis was rather simple...

Count the number of the Saths on the screen (X). Count the number of the dead ones (Y).

How big a percentage is X from the Sath total (80)  80/X = Z

Thus, approximate number of dead Saths = Y*Z



EDIT: IMHO, I find both your and Snails theory lacking..and frankly I don't like em. But we don't have any canon theory so the more of our own we ut up, chances are sooner or alters somone will get it right....We'll never tough tough.

[Snail]

EDIT: IMHO, I find both your and Snails theory lacking..and frankly I don't like em. But we don't have any canon theory so the more of our own we ut up, chances are sooner or alters somone will get it right....We'll never tough tough.

How so? Put them on the Wiki talk page.

[Marcus Vesper]

I wouldn't suggest that the Shivans were completely peaceful, sitting around their small corner of space until the Ancients started attacking them, just that the Ancients built the road, step by step, to their own eventual doom at the hands of the Shivans by constructing Knossos portals.

As for the 9 cities of Troy analogy, if the Ancients had just built the only road to Shivan regions of space, then there couldn't have been any civilizations here previously annihilated by the Shivans, so Bosch's idea that countless species had been wiped out by the Shivans throughout history would be incorrect.  For our galaxy anyways, who knows how many species have met their end at the hands of the Shivans in the uncharted expanses of space?

Another point of contention about the Shivans that gets brought up is the whole "Great Destroyers/Great Preservers" angle, which takes the ending cutscene from FS1 as it's primary inspiration.  I don't agree with either aspect of those theories, that the Shivans are somehow the guardians of space or the preservers of non-advanced life.  In the case of vasudans and humanity though, they may very well have inadvertantly been directly responsible for our continued existence: by wiping out the expansionistic Ancients (and leaving) they prevented us from becoming yet another casualty of their empire.   In that specific case Shivans did act as our preservers, I would contend it was an unintended side effect.

[admiral_wolf]

Everything that we have seen from the Shivans would indicate they are agressive.  However, this is only our interpretation, seeing as any communication or studies of the species from either the GTA, PVN or GTVA have resulted in loss of live.  However, one man called Aken Bosch, somehow manages to not only communicate with them, but also attempt at calling a cease-fire.  This leads me to believe that although the Shivans appear to be a "Shoot first, ask questions later" type, they may be willing to negotiate a truce if we ever reattempted ETAK.

[Marcus Vesper]

Of course, when they boarded the Iceni the Shivans proceeded to slaughter the crew, so Bosch's exit may not have been under pleasant terms for him.  Ever seen Mars Attacks?  Just because we can communicate doesn't mean we know what we're saying/hearing precisely, and it certainly doesn't mean both parties are being truthful.

[jaedub51]

Out of all the theories on the wiki, Snail's is the best. But I don't like the idea of Shivan fleets broken off from one another.

Personally, I think that there has to be something else out there that has made the shivans so powerful. I mean, why build 80 Sathanas juggernauts if all you're doing is eradicating weaker foes? They could have accompplished the same thing with 80 Demons/Ravannas. Or even 40 Lucifers. I just feel that the Shivans have a bigger fish to fry. That's why they sent such a small fleet in fs1: they need to concentrate their forces on something else, and the Lucifer was a proven success. When it failed, they planned to finish the job when they could spare the forces to do it: and that's why they only send in one Sathanas at first.

As for what they did with Bosch..... maybe they planned to 'educate' him on what was going on in the bigger picture, and then give him back.