Author Topic: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)  (Read 25182 times)

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
What do you mean, atheism isn't a faith?  It isn't a belief???  OK, then what is it?  A theory?  No.  I do suppose it should be allowed that atheism isn't a religious faith, but it is a faith nonetheless, and the fervor of atheists matches or exceeds those of the religious.

Im pretty sure I explained this to you last time but atheism doesnt require faith because we have no objective reason to believe in gods. It requires faith. Because faith is believing in something even if there is no evidence or even when theres evidence to the contrary, becuase with faith evidence is irrelevant. Atheism OTOH requires no faith.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 01:23:20 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
I think he means that a lot of Atheists are closet Spiritualists, which is probably pretty accurate, for some reason, a lot of people I meet seem to think that Atheist simply means 'Not belonging to a major religion'.

Then they really need to be educated as to what the term means as they are more agnostic or deist than atheistic.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Agreed, I consider myself to be more Spiritual than anything else, but if I were brutally honest, I'd say it's more a question of 'hope' than 'belief', so that starts edging towards faith. I tend to subscribe to, of all things, a Star Trek quote, 'Infinite possibilities in an Infinite Universe'. I quite like the context of that, it means there's always something new to learn, and somewhere new to go.

 

Offline vyper

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Either way, 'There's room enough for everything' :p

 

Offline Scuddie

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
I AM THE SON OF SAM!!

Religion is a wonderful thing...

Edit:  Stupid keyboard...
Bunny stole my signature :(.

Sorry boobies.

 

Offline vyper

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Either way, 'There's room enough for everything' :p

Hey if you're going to geek out around me you do it right. ;)
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
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Strong atheism starts with the fact that gods are a logical impossibility and therefore can't exist. That's not a faith based position and you'd be hugely stretching the point to claim that it was as you say.

That's not quite true.

Denial of the existence of God based on logic and scientific evidence requires faith in the processes of logic and science - i.e. we believe they produce "true" knowledge.

But what is true? (/postmodernism).

It is entirely plausible that unrecognized errors in processes of science and logical reasoning have led to an inability of science and/or logic to detect the existence of a God or other deities.  We take it on a form of faith that logic and science produce rational conclusions because we have no evidence that they produce irrational conclusions, rather than having evidence that suggests they must always produce rational conclusions.

Wow, that was convoluted.

At any rate, a serious scientist must always admit that there is error involved in measurement and the evidence produced from it, stemming either from failinings in experiment design and analysis, or inabilities of man to fully comprehend the results.

In essence, science and logic are forms of evidence-based faith, but they do require some element of acceptance based on belief at their very basic level.

This is precisely why religion and science are actually two disparate forms of the same-knowledge producing structure.  Both purport to produce true explanations of the world around us.  Religion, as the oldest, has been co-opted into human power struggles and solidified into doctrine rather than being interpreted as what it really is - people at a particular point in time and human understanding describing their world in terms that made sense to them at the time.  Science, as the younger of the two, is based on an anti-religious prespective which is perpetually skeptical and is always questioning, improving upon itself.  However, Enlightenment science based on rationality is barely 400 years old and we are already seeing it begin the transition into doctrine, where some of its elements can no longer be legitimately questioned.

Science and religion are period-specific means of making sense of our world.  Religion has been adapted into power structures in order to serve the needs of elite groups of individuals, and thus has entered doctrine.  The result is that many religions believe they can no longer be questioned and its understanding of the world is formalized.  Science, by contrast, has been adopted by elites but is based on a continued expansion of knowledge and thus perpetually questions and changes certain elements of itself while the core belief structure remains the same.

Science and religion are two halves of the same whole, and they both require some element of faith.  Even the most stringent atheist must have some form of faith or they would agnostic, recognizing that we really don't know either way when it comes to higher powers than ourselves.
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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
In essence, science and logic are forms of evidence-based faith, but they do require some element of acceptance based on belief at their very basic level.

This is precisely why religion and science are actually two disparate forms of the same-knowledge producing structure. 

This I dont agree with. When has assuming a supernatural explanation for anything ever verifiably increased our understanding? Since there are no examples to be found, how can you say science and religion are just different forms of the "same" knowledge producing structure?

Science doesnt require any faith at all, it simply requires the acceptance that its the only thing that can produce results and the scientific method being the best and only method we know of that can increase our knowledge. You say religion can increase our knowledge, so how does it do that?

You are right to say that Science may be wrong about everything. Maybe we are all in the Matrix or apart of Zen dream but we havent any reason to believe that and believing in these things doesnt help explain anything. So it doesnt require faith to disbelieve we are in the Matrix just because we have no reason to think we are.

Religion is based on faith, which is believing something regardless of any evidence there may or may not be to support it. Its believing when there is no evidence at all or when there is evidence to the contrary - evidence is irrelevant to faith. Having faith can never increase your understanding but its a very good way to stay wrong forever and never know it.

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Science, as the younger of the two, is based on an anti-religious prespective which is perpetually skeptical and is always questioning, improving upon itself.  However, Enlightenment science based on rationality is barely 400 years old and we are already seeing it begin the transition into doctrine, where some of its elements can no longer be legitimately questioned.

Whats wrong with science being perpetually skeptical, always questioning and improving upon itself?  Which elements can longer be legitimately questioned? Is that because they are so well evidenced you need a lot of evidence to overthrow it?

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Science and religion are two halves of the same whole, and they both require some element of faith.  Even the most stringent atheist must have some form of faith or they would agnostic, recognizing that we really don't know either way when it comes to higher powers than ourselves.

An agnostic believes its either impossible to know if god exists or that they dont know if one does or not. I say Im atheist because Im not on the fence, I really dont believe there is a god. But I dont because I see no reason to believe in one. That doesnt require any faith at all. I also dont believe in the supernatural, even though I hope there is and would love to believe in it. The problem is I see very little objective reason to, hence my disbelief in the supernatural also has no element of faith involved. To take it further I see no evidence for Santa Claus, Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster and you will likely agree with me, but our mutual disbelief in these dont require faith either.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 05:29:40 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline castor

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
At any rate, a serious scientist must always admit that there is error involved in measurement and the evidence produced from it, stemming either from failinings in experiment design and analysis, or inabilities of man to fully comprehend the results.
Exactly. And that goes not only for the scientist, but for anyone claiming to be a serious atheist. A failure in realizing and practicing that point renders the "atheist" just another believer. Furthermore, this requirement must be extended to cover also the internal world, i.e. every sensation and thought that ever passes the consciousness of the mind.

(I guess this means there are not real "truths" to be known either, just series of infinite regression, at best :doubt:).

 

Offline Dark RevenantX

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Religion would be better without the world.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
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Strong atheism starts with the fact that gods are a logical impossibility and therefore can't exist. That's not a faith based position and you'd be hugely stretching the point to claim that it was as you say.

Thing about an afterlife / something more is there is no way to logically or scientifically disprove it, just as there is no way to prove it. Religion, at its most basic level, is permanently safe. By being atheist it requires faith, because you can't disprove anything, by believing anything it requires faith. Believing that anything is real requires a certain degree of faith.

Religion would be better without the world.
:nod:

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
This I dont agree with. When has assuming a supernatural explanation for anything ever verifiably increased our understanding? Since there are no examples to be found, how can you say science and religion are just different forms of the "same" knowledge producing structure?

Science doesnt require any faith at all, it simply requires the acceptance that its the only thing that can produce results and the scientific method being the best and only method we know of that can increase our knowledge. You say religion can increase our knowledge, so how does it do that?

What is acceptance but faith that what you hear is true?

Think about it for a second. It's easy for simple things like gravity - things you can in a way test yourself. but you readily belive practicly anything your read from scientific magazines, new theories and truths that you cannot really test. I mean, you don't have a giant particle accelerator in your back yard to test out the latest teories on subatomic particels, dimensions and quantum mechanics.
So in essence you're taking someone elses WORD, since you havn't made those experiments yourself.

What you say? But it's been confirmed by a 100000 scientists? So? There are millilons of christians and Musluims and budhists out there who claim there is a God/higer state of mind/whatever. Does that make them right?
So yes, there is a certain level of belief in science - belief that what those scientist say is true, belief that their data is correct, etc.

At the end of the day, more or less everything is belief.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
And that goes not only for the scientist, but for anyone claiming to be a serious atheist. A failure in realizing and practicing that point renders the "atheist" just another believer. Furthermore, this requirement must be extended to cover also the internal world, i.e. every sensation and thought that ever passes the consciousness of the mind.

(I guess this means there are not real "truths" to be known either, just series of infinite regression, at best :doubt:).

What people who make that argument fail to comprehend is that it's completely irrelevant to the matter at hand anyway. It simply doesn't matter that the world might not be what we think it is. It doesn't matter that we might all be in the matrix or something.

Whether you are religious or an atheist we all still act on our perception of the world. The baseline is the exact same point for everyone. And everyone believes in cause and effect to some degree. Everyone believes in logic to some degree. People who don't are labelled insane and stuck in an asylum to prevent them from hurting themselves.

Everyone believes in the scientific method and the rules of logic at a certain basic level. No matter how religious someone is they don't get out of bed expecting gravity not to work or their orange juice to be a gas. Why do they expect that? It's cause they know from experience that you don't suddenly start floating without a good reason and that orange juice is a liquid. 

Religious people have made the same basic assumptions about validity logic and experimentation. It's just that at some point they then abandon this and start taking things as true without evidence or experience.

So yes you can try to throw the philosophical equivalent of the nuke into a thread on religion by claiming that since perception is subjective everything requires faith at some level but it's a rather pointless argument to make. It's as pointless as a physicist claiming that you can't do any kind of energy calculation using Newton's laws unless you include zero point energy on both sides of the equation. Technically he's correct. In practical terms he's a know it all wanker who's just showing off.
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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
What is acceptance but faith that what you hear is true?

That would be the fallacy of believing something just because someone told you. Thats religion. Arguments from authority are worthless in science unless you have the evidence to back yourself up.

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Think about it for a second. It's easy for simple things like gravity - things you can in a way test yourself. but you readily belive practicly anything your read from scientific magazines, new theories and truths that you cannot really test.


Firstly, dropping something like an apple is hardly testing the theory of gravity. You need to get a little more educated about what the theory of gravity is if thats all you think you need to to prove it. Its a lot more in depth than that.

Secondly, science needs to be repeatable. If you wanted to you could go and test everything you read in science magazines and scientists do this all the time. Just because the common man doesnt have the knowledge or the equipment doesnt mean it cant be done. Religious claims cant even hypothetically be tested, because if you could you wouldnt need faith to believe it anymore.

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I mean, you don't have a giant particle accelerator in your back yard to test out the latest teories on subatomic particels, dimensions and quantum mechanics.
So in essence you're taking someone elses WORD, since you havn't made those experiments yourself.

Just because I believe something doesnt mean its absolute. Everything I believe is tentative and subject to change when the evidence demands. Im not an expert in many fields, but I appreciate many people are. Baring any reason to disbelieve them I can accept their position as tentaively true open to the possibility that they are wrong, only because I have no understanding it of myself.  Religious belivers like yourself cant seem to understand this, as everything in your world is very black and white seeing the world in absolutes. But thats what faith does to you.


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What you say? But it's been confirmed by a 100000 scientists? So? There are millilons of christians and Musluims and budhists out there who claim there is a God/higer state of mind/whatever. Does that make them right?
So yes, there is a certain level of belief in science - belief that what those scientist say is true, belief that their data is correct, etc.

If its been confirmed by 1000 scientists (though thats not actually very many so lets just pretend you mean the majority of scientists) then I would think that there must be a reason they all agree. And if I wanted to I could find out WHY they agree. I could read the peer reviewed literature, review and even repeat whatever experiments that were conducted to see if I can find flaws. I can submit my own papers for review and if its a well established consensus I have challenged, and Im right about it, I will gain much prestige.

Religion on the other hand has a lot of believers, but if I wanted to know WHY they believed all I would get directed to is their holy texts and subjective feelings. No objective evidence, no experiments to review or repeat to verify any of the claims they make, no way to validate anything.

Thats the difference between science and religion, religion is based on faith while science is based on evidence. The very nature of science is that it is self correcting and demands that it changes when the evidence demands it, while religion is stuck because faith demands it never question its primary dogmas. Religion cannot possibly therefore verifiably increase our knowledge and so is practically useless in improving our understanding of anything.

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At the end of the day, more or less everything is belief.
Everyone has beliefs, but belief doesnt necessarily equal faith. Faith is believing in something where evidence is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 07:07:10 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline maje

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Out of curiousity, people DO know that you can believe in God without subscribing to any single religion, correct?  I think that this needs to be cleared up by making ignorant assumptions that only religious people believe in God, i.e. you can be a spiritual person that believes in God and have your own personal understanding of Him.

As for whether the world would be a better place without religion, I seriously doubt that.  I DO think that the world would be a better place if man didn't constantly go in and distort and corrupt religion and twisting it to his own ends.  Religion in general seems to work more at the local and personal level, but the moment political (as in the church and government being one in the same) level has been attained, you start getting into trouble.  The Founding Fathers of the USA understood this and thus excluded the creation of a national church that would force everyone into the same group (after all is this NOT the reason the Pilgrims left England?).  But as a personal thing, religion can often be inspiring to some, and comforting to others.  It helps to set up philosophical and ethical guidelines to help mold us into better people.

And in general, I think that most religions ARE charitable in that they help the needy and poor.

Here's another idea though, let's throw the flip side of the question which would be "Would the World be a Better Place without Atheism?"

Sure state-sponsored atheism has never really existed until the 20th Century (at least to my limited knowledge), but let's see what fond chapters of human history that the anti-religious folk have conjured up in less than 100 years.  Well, we've got the Bolshevik Revolution, the Purges, Cultural Revolution in Mao's China, slaughter of innocents in virtually every Communist Country at some point in time.  And please bare in mind that something like 100,000 Million people perished in a span of less than 100 years alone which is something I don't think organized religion has accomplished in the same amount of time.

Or we can look at it this way, maybe it's not so much religion's 'fault' any more than it's atheism's 'fault' and has more to do with how human beings are simply flawed and imperfect creatures that tend to screw things up as much as do things right. :)
Deuternomy 22:11 explained:

Well there are many different speculations going on about this law about not mixing fibers and at least one explanation claims that it was a symbolic gesture designed to keep a pure sense of culture, people, and religion.  Seperation of crop  in the vinyard, mentioned in Dt. 22:9 and 22:10 seem to reaffirm this idea, though there may be other reasons as well.

And now, an excerpt from the Prayer of Mordecai, the Book of Esther Chapter C (New American Bible Official Catholic version).

Est C:5  You know all things.  You know, O Lord, that it was not out of insolence or pride or desire for fame that I acted thus in not bowing down to the proud Haman.  6  Gladly would I have kissed the soles of his feet for the salvation of Israel.  7  But I acted as I did so as not to place the honor of man above that of God.  I will not bow down to anyone but you, my Lord.  It is not out of pride that I am acting thus.

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
And please bare in mind that something like 100,000 Million people perished in a span of less than 100 years alone which is something I don't think organized religion has accomplished in the same amount of time.

It's not something atheism has achieved either. Unless you're claiming that the Chinese travelled back in time wiping people from history. :p
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
And please bare in mind that something like 100,000 Million people perished in a span of less than 100 years alone which is something I don't think organized religion has accomplished in the same amount of time.
It's not something atheism has achieved either. Unless you're claiming that the Chinese travelled back in time wiping people from history. :p
Well, this is the Chinese we're talking about here. :nervous:

 
Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Out of curiousity, people DO know that you can believe in God without subscribing to any single religion, correct?  I think that this needs to be cleared up by making ignorant assumptions that only religious people believe in God, i.e. you can be a spiritual person that believes in God and have your own personal understanding of Him.

Sure, thats Deism. Theres also Taoism and varients of that. But they all still require faith in order to believe it, unfortunatly, as I would love Taoism especially to be true.

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Well, we've got the Bolshevik Revolution, the Purges, Cultural Revolution in Mao's China, slaughter of innocents in virtually every Communist Country at some point in time.  And please bare in mind that something like 100,000 Million people perished in a span of less than 100 years alone which is something I don't think organized religion has accomplished in the same amount of time.

No one was killed in the name of atheism though.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Gah, too much to quote and too little time, so I'll take the liberty of freehand to clear a few things up.

First off, science and religion are historically two halves of the same whole.  Both began as knowledge-producing institutions to understand the world around us.

Religion, or organized religion, has entered into doctrine such that it can no longer be legitimately questioned or modified (and this is a bad thing).  It has remained a period-specific means of understanding our world, and has not been adjusted with time (or the few adjustments that have come took some serious effort to put into place).

Science, by contrast, which really emerged in the 17th and 18th centuries with the Enlightenment, is a rational answer to the failures of religion to accept new forms of evidence.  In many ways, science is the complete opposite of religion in its perpetual skepticism and acceptance of new facts modifying its original premises.  Whereas religion has entered a static and doctrinal state of affairs, science's basic premise ensures that understanding continues to be advanced.  (And this is a good thing /Martha).

Where the lines begin to blur is when we look at this issue of doctrine and rigidity.  Religion hasn't always been in the state its afforded in today's society.  At many points in history, religion was quite fluid.  It is only since the establishment of an official order of Christianity (e.g. the true establishment of the hierarchical Vatican) that any religion entered total doctrinal supervision.  At that point in history, religion began to move more and more into the realm of power politics and had less and less to do with understanding the world.  This is not to say religion was never used in power structures before (we can go right back to the Sumerians and see that, indeed, it was), but the role widened.

Science's very premise is on perpetual skepticism and the continued requirement for proof, not to mention knowledge for the sake of knowledge, rather than power relationships.  (Yet a very bright man once said that knowledge is power, and vice versa).  However, since its modern foundations in the Enlightenment, Science has also become more and more entrenched into power politics.  That said, unlike religion, science has maintained most of its basic premise.  Where the danger signs come into play is on acceptance of science for science's sake.  Somewhere along the line, mainstream society lost their skepticism of scientific discovery, and much of it is now being accepted purely on the word of the researchers involved.  The vast majority of experiments are NEVER replicated, and when they are we often get different results.  It is becoming increasingly harder to modify some of the basic principles of science - we need only look at Newton's laws as an example of this (Einstein's work violated much of Newton's in its early stages, and took some time to be accepted by the scientific community at large).  Science is also becoming increasingly privatized, out of the view of the layman.  Instead, we depend on specialists to tell us what is true.  These specialists are not affiliated with religion so for the most part we take their word on some element of faith in their principles.  In addition, powerful lobby groups for science are infiltrating national power structures further and further so that science now influences government instead of religion.  This wouldn't be a problem (Science's goals are rationalism and the betterment of humanity) except for the specialist understanding, or priviledged level of knowledge, which scientists as a whole do not readily afford to the layman outside their cluster.

I'm sure in some ways my historical analysis sounds very conspiracy-esque, but that is not my intention.  Rather, I'm illustrating a point that we must be careful so as not to make claims about science and religion as two entirely separate phenomena, one good and one bad, but rather recognize that they are both rooted in the same historical context and have followed similar patterns of development since their inception.

To say religion is worthless while science is all knowing is to take a very specific and very naive historical story.  Both have a role to play, and both are more similar in ways that a great many on both sides of the spectrum refuse to acknowledge.  Ultimately, they both began as a means of knowing our world, and both have diverged from that original purpose.

At any rate, for an atheist to say they do not believe in God because of the evidence is to have faith that the means of producing those evidence are entirely truthful and unflawed, which anyone with a serious science education can tell you is a line of crap.  Science is still in its infancy.

Incidentally, before anyone starts questioning me as some quack making up a line, my training is in several areas of science, including Molecular Genetics, Sociology (especially Power/Conflict sociology), and Psychology.  I'm not religious, and I do not participate in any organized Faith.
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