[lenard27]

80 Santhanas's? No way the GTVA would have won.  Even if they don't have any significant firepower on the aft of the ship, with 80 of them, they would b able to set them up that multiple Santhanas's are covering the aft of a single Sathanas.

[NGTM-1R]

The problem is that many of the juggernauts warped out. Where were they going? Unless they made an intergalactic node or something, there's no way to escape the confines of the system, which would have been totally cleansed.

There's the node to Gamma Drac, for starters. Any other unstable nodes in the system that the Shivans might have known but not the GTVA, or the GTVA knew but couldn't use. They would have at least a few minutes to escape the system, much as Alpha 1 did, and perhaps longer.

More to the point, when considering the power of FS weaponry, there is a minor though real possiblity a Freespace ship could survive a supernova, particularly of a star like Capella which would be a great deal weaker than the geniune article due to insufficent mass. As a case in point, the Capella supernova appeared to us as two stages. The Moloch and the Deimos survived the first one.

And while people often forget the blue-white second stage, we don't even know if that was actually a part of the supernova or some kind of subspace disruption the Shivans triggered. Certainly it doesn't fit as part of a supernova's normal sequence of events.

[TrashMan]

Maybe they just waited in subspace for a few minutes, long enough for the shockwave to pass them by. Sathanas hulls are strong enough to absorb high-energy beam cannons, and though they would take damage passing through a highly-ionized radioactive field of several thousand degrees ambient temperature, I think juggernaughts of that size could probably have survived long enough to get back to Gamma Drac.

Given that large planets can't survive supernovas, methinks 6km warships suriving it is out of the question.

There is a very real posssibiltiy that the sath fleet was wiped out.
Node jumps require strong gravity wells (stars), and with the blowing up of one, all nodes would be fubar, if not collapsed. Thus, retreating to GD seems unlikely.
However, if they jumped to the fartherest edges of the system as it's possible with in-system jumping and made a full burn away from the sun, a few MIGHT survive.

[karajorma]

Node jumps require strong gravity wells (stars), and with the blowing up of one, all nodes would be fubar, if not collapsed.
However, if they jumped to the fartherest edges of the system as it's possible with in-system jumping and made a full burn away from the sun, a few MIGHT survive.

That's an enormous assumption. If Capella formed a black hole the gravity well would be intact. In fact even if Capella compacted down to a standard neutron star it could easily still weigh more than stars like Barnard's Star which we know damn well can have jump nodes.

While I agree that the destruction of Capella could have caused shifts in the jump nodes it's ludicrous to claim that it had to. Or even that this is the most probable likelihood. Although we know nodes can be unstable we know so little about what causes them to form, stabilise or vanish that it's pointless to try to claim you can say with any certainty what would have happened to them following Capella's destruction.

[Steel Prophet]

If Capella formed a black hole the gravity well would be intact.

I don't think so. The gravitiy would change one way or the other and then also the jump nodes would change. They probably won't disappear but they might become less stable or even change their position.

[Snail]

IMO, I think we didn't see lots of Shivan destroyers because even the Shivans don't see the point of losing 150+ destroyers when they blow up the star.

[karajorma]

If Capella formed a black hole the gravity well would be intact.

I don't think so. The gravitiy would change one way or the other and then also the jump nodes would change. They probably won't disappear but they might become less stable or even change their position.

There would still be a gravity well. And there is no proof that the mass of the star has any effect on the nodes. All we know is that there must be a stellar mass for nodes to form. That changing the mass would change the stability of the nodes is not proved.

[Steel Prophet]

Not proved you're right. But (at least to me) it seems very plausible.

[admiral_wolf]

The Shivans are an unstoppable force.  Even with us supposingly cutting Capella off, I do believe that the Shivans will return.  As for our forces, it took a lot of sacrifice to destroy one Sathanas, the GTVA Collossus, the GVD Psamtak and thousands of good pilots and techincal crew.  We have no hope of destroying the Shivans as their technological developments and their resources far exceed our own.

We are a doomed race.

[Flipside]

The way we dealt with it in TI is that the star disrupted Subspace itself when it was destroyed, it didn't change any of the established and stable jump-nodes, but because (we assume) there was some sort of subspace portal opened by the Shivans when it was destroyed, it's theoretically possible that the explosion ripped open some new 'exits', those exits could, because of the nature of subspace, lead practically anywhere. Of course, this science is based purely on what little information we have on Subspace, but I've always been of the opinion you can do what you want to the 'universe' in FS2 as long as you leave the canon stuff alone.

Of course, I've always wondered whether the only fault of the GTVA was to get between the Shivans and their actual target, they may have been going home, or they may have been fighting another race entirely, and needed to go through GTVA space to get to somewhere suitable for opening a jump gate. Let's face it 80 Juggernauts could have obliterated the GTVA in days, instead they simply flew in, blew up a star and vanished, that sounds like 'just passing through' to me.

[Marcus Vesper]

If Capella formed a black hole the gravity well would be intact.

I don't think so. The gravitiy would change one way or the other and then also the jump nodes would change. They probably won't disappear but they might become less stable or even change their position.

There would still be a gravity well. And there is no proof that the mass of the star has any effect on the nodes. All we know is that there must be a stellar mass for nodes to form. That changing the mass would change the stability of the nodes is not proved.

Strictly speaking all we know is that in-system jumps require the presence of a massive gravity well, people just tend to assume nodes between systems work the same way, in the absence of hard data on their formation from canon sources.  I would contend that we shouldn't make that assumption.

[karajorma]

There's no mention of any nodes that lead to deep space in the game. That might simply be cause there's very little point in going there though.

I do tend to agree though. My whole point is that you should give the loosest possible interpretation of the facts we do have.

Inter-system subspace jumps may require a gravity well at both, only one or neither point.
The destruction of Capella may or may not have had an effect on the nodes leading out of the system.
The destruction of Capella may or may not have had an effect on the nodes in other systems.

You can make reasonable arguments for any of those positions so it seems silly to me to pick any particular one and say that it must be true.

[nubbles526]

The shivans win because:
1. No body is willing to fight them
2. They have huge ass weapon which can destroy a star
3. They don't use money (no contractors, no tax etc.)
4. They destroyed the Ancients (the wise people we look up to)
5. Bosch can help them (wish there was a campaign based on this)

[Snail]

1. No body is willing to fight them
2. They have huge ass weapon which can destroy a star
3. They don't use money (no contractors, no tax etc.)
4. They destroyed the Ancients (the wise people we look up to)
5. Bosch can help them (wish there was a campaign based on this)

1. If they came marching back into GTVA space, I'm sure lotsa people would've liked to fight them.
2. Yup.
3. We never know, but I still agree with you.
4. The Ancients couldn't have been that powerful...
5. One human with a laptop wouldn't be able to help that much IMO.

[Mobius]

Is there any canoniacal mention of the skill of shivan fighter pilots at all?

I wonder if you're blind

Watch the FS2 Intro! That Manticore was superb...the Medusa was shot down by a missile launched from a fighter. The FS1 Intro tells us something about the skill of Shivan pilots. Alpha 1 is skilled enough to handle a Scorpion, but average Terran pilots weren't able to handle a few Shivan fighters.

No matter of how skilled the pilot is, a bomber can't survive a dogfight with a wing of fighters.[/i]

I'm not sure what spectrum of skill your playing on, but I've refuted that statement many times.

I'm talking about the FreeSpace Universe, not the game! In a game, the player is supposed to win! He has the support necessary to win! Even the SWC, according to its members, isn't going to center their conversion on the actions of famous Star Wars characters, and they're doing the right thing.

Pretty much any discussion on this topic consists entirely of theory.

The only people who are definitively wrong are the people who claim that they're definitively right.

No, if we forget the game and think about the Universe.

Uh? But the Shivans knew that Capella was about to go supernova. I accept the sacrifice of the forces fighting the GTVA, they were only forcing them to stay in system. This kind of sacrifice is acceptable. Forces entering the system after the explosion would be lost, with no avail.

Did they?

That leads to my theory that Capella was not supposed to go boom. The Shivans made an error.

That leads me to think that the Shivan fleet is massive, that the there are no traitors in the Shivan armada...and that they die when the Hive Mind^TM expects them to do so. Those Shivans were tasked to engage GTVA forces. They inflicted major losses, but everything was up to the Sathanes.

Inter-system subspace jumps may require a gravity well at both, only one or neither point.
The destruction of Capella may or may not have had an effect on the nodes leading out of the system.
The destruction of Capella may or may not have had an effect on the nodes in other systems.

But the shockwave was enough to kill most Terrans nad Vasudans.

Approx., The distance between:
- Sol and Capella is 43 light years
- Antares and Capella is 644 light years
- Sirius and Capella is 40 light years
- Procyon and Capella is 37 light years
- Aldebaran and Capella is 35 light years
- Altair and Capella is 52 light years
- Deneb and Capella is 0.9 Kpcs
- Ross 128 and Capella is 45 light years
- Alpha Centauri and Capella is 47 light years
- Regulus and Capella is 74 light years
- Delta Serpentis and Capella is 234 light years
- Beta Aquilae and Capella is 75 light years
- Betelgeuse and Capella is 394 light years
- Barnard Provenzano's Star is 47 light years
- Dubhe and Capella is 100 light years
- Wolf 359 and Capella is 43 light years
- Alphard and Capella is 173 light years
- Beta Cygni and Capella is 395 light years
- Vega and Capella is 51 light years
- Epsilon Pegasi and Capella is 680 light years
- Mirfak and Capella is 551 light years
- Polaris and Capella is 400 light years
- Gamma Draconis and Capella is 148 light years

Considering that the shockwave is enough to kill most life forms in a 200(or very close to it) light years radius...

Even Shivan forces still in Gamma Draconis would sustain losses. The shockwave needs time to reach all those systems, but...where are the Terran and Vasudan races going to escape? Antares, Betelgeuse, Epsilon Pegasi, Mirfak and Beta Cygni? And the Terrans still in Sol?

1. No body is willing to fight them
2. They have huge ass weapon which can destroy a star
3. They don't use money (no contractors, no tax etc.)
4. They destroyed the Ancients (the wise people we look up to)
5. Bosch can help them (wish there was a campaign based on this)

1. If they came marching back into GTVA space, I'm sure lotsa people would've liked to fight them.
2. Yup.
3. We never know, but I still agree with you.
4. The Ancients couldn't have been that powerful...
5. One human with a laptop wouldn't be able to help that much IMO.

1) Ok.
2) Ok.
3) A Hive Mind^TM means no money.
4)  Please don't turn every single topic into... 
5) 

[Snail]

I agree with you Mobius, we HAVE TO forget about the game if we're making storyline theories. We cannot just say "it's a fugging game!"

[Mobius]

Cooorect...but, for the same reason, you should change your consideration of FS1 inconsistencies

[Snail]

Fine, let's settle this once and for all!

If we consider FS as its own universe, then we cannot ignore FS1 inconsistencies, unless they really do not make sense (like multiple jump nodes). In that case, I believe they should be ignored, especially if has announced it was wrong themselves. However, if it is possible for them to be explained, and has not been announced as wrong by , like why the Shivans in FS1 did not have beams, and why the Shivans in FS2 did, I do not think they can be ignored.

[Mobius]

But the lack of infos regarding the Ancients in FS2 doesn't justify your low consideration of them.

And that theory about the Shivan fleet of FS1 implies that there are two kinds of Cains, Liliths and Demons?

In the first two episodes of Colony Wars there were beams. They vanished in the third episode. No explanation, no need to waste time with theories.

[BengalTiger]

This thread inspired me to do some FREDing:

4x GTF Erynies (armed with: 8x Maxim, all missiles: Hornets)
4x GTB Artemis D.H. (Armed with: 2x Maxim+Hornets in one bank and Cyclops bombs in bank 2 and 3)

VS

1x Sathanas

Outcome:
Sath disabled and partially disarmed in under 15 minutes, 2 Terran ships shot down.

With a Wild Weasel wing of 6 GTF Perseus ships armed with SDG's and Stiletto II's doing the disarming for me, the disabling takes less than 10 minutes, total of friendlies lost- 3.

So if the GTVA would use it's stealth ships to find Shivan jugs leaft without escort vessels, that have sent the majority of their strike craft somewhere and a group of 14 ships disarming&disabling covered by a dozen fighters could stop a jug in 10-15 minutes.
And if the GTVA constantly has 26 ships available for such missions, 80 jugs could be disabled in one day. All we need to do later is keep repair ships from reaching the Saths (since the SJ shot down by the big C couldn't fix it's turrets I assume Shivans also need repair ships to keep the fleet running) while slowly killing them off.
Which means we could stop their fleet, if they don't kill us all first.