[Jeff Vader]

...yeah, maybe. But from the Hall Fight we know that at least freighters are manned. Or Shivaned? Whatever...

[Gregster2k]

I've got a theory there. What when all the Shivan fighters are in fact computer controlled drones, and maybe only capital ships are crewed?
Please tell me if I'm terribly wrong

That makes a lot of sense, actually. We've never seen a visible cockpit on any Shivan fighter...and even if there is one, then the Shivan inside may well be biomechanically "fused" with the ship, meaning that the Shivan has no life outside of the fighter (lives to fight, and die, in battle). If it even lives at all. I don't want to speculate too much on the Shivans, though...

[karajorma]

You would have to wonder why both the Mara and Dragon have a space inside big enough to fit a cockpit though.

[Gregster2k]

You would have to wonder why both the Mara and Dragon have a space inside big enough to fit a cockpit though.

Speculative explanation: The elite fighters have real Shivans in them, or maybe larger brained, but still lesser "class" Shivans relegated to living and dying inside fighters. If the cockpit did not originally exist, it was hollowed out by Intelligence.

[NGTM-1R]

This "no Shivans in fighters" theory is not totally unreasonable, considering there are some Shivan fighters (like the Dragon and Astaroth) where it's kind of an open question as to how the pilot fits in the thing if he looks anything like the ones in Hallfight or from the Silent Threat extras section. Shivans are apparently the size of a small car! Most FS fighters are the size of a decent house, on the other hand, so this is not as much of a problem for many ships.

(As an aside, the poor performance of the Dragon in FS1 may have been caused by having to tear things out to fit Alpha 1.)

Alternatively, being already apparently deeply into cybernetics, it's possible that (some) Shivan pilots are simply brains and a life-support system wired into their fighters. This theory could go interesting places (aggressiveness pumped up by drugs in combat? Cybernetic pyschosis or god complex requiring them to be kept sedated when in a hanger?), but that's totally speculative.

Or the Shivans can just curl up all those extra appendages against themselves and fly like that/plug in directly via their cybernetic bodies. That would make them roughly human-sized, perhaps a bit larger.

[Gregster2k]

This "no Shivans in fighters" theory is not totally unreasonable, considering there are some Shivan fighters (like the Dragon and Astaroth) where it's kind of an open question as to how the pilot fits in the thing if he looks anything like the ones in Hallfight or from the Silent Threat extras section. Shivans are apparently the size of a small car! Most FS fighters are the size of a decent house, on the other hand, so this is not as much of a problem for many ships.

(As an aside, the poor performance of the Dragon in FS1 may have been caused by having to tear things out to fit Alpha 1.)

ThAlternatively, being already apparently deeply into cybernetics, it's possible that (some) Shivan pilots are simply brains and a life-support system wired into their fighters. This theory could go interesting places (aggressiveness pumped up by drugs in combat? Cybernetic pyschosis or god complex requiring them to be kept sedated when in a hanger?), but that's totally speculative.

Or the Shivans can just curl up all those extra appendages against themselves and fly like that/plug in directly via their cybernetic bodies. That would make them roughly human-sized, perhaps a bit larger.

That is what I was implying. At the risk of going off topic, if the fighters are indeed drones or "lesser Shivans," I think they are controlled by the Lucifer (its destruction shut down its attending fleet) & Sathanas (showed self preservation at end of FreeSpace 2) classes. They house (or physically "are") the real thinking Shivan(s) -- the commander(s) -- relaying his/her/its/their control via Shivan Comm Nodes or other means.

Ripping things out to fit Alpha 1 is dangerous; any mistakes we have a toaster, and have to get another one -- and Dragons are not exactly easy to find let alone capture! Maybe a Shivan was inside the Dragon/Mara, or at least a Shivan as big as a human. A Hallfight size Shivan is possible, because then we could have just inserted a standard Terran cockpit (the size of a car) to overlay and interface with the existing Shivan cockpit.

Actually achieving control over the ship is maybe a simple matter of wiring up our standard Terran controls to whatever central processor core was inside the ship --- whether that be a computer or ripping the appendages off of a Shivan and attaching them to a standard Terran flight control system. It doesn't really matter which method was used...although the latter is much more disturbing.

[TrashMan]

Shivans are definitely cybernetic and there are definitely shivan pilots in their fighters. We see cockpits on all of them (n some, it's a bit more difficult to make out)

that said it's quite likely that they do connect with the fighter, rather than use a joystick.
But still, nothing I've seen in FS 1 or 2 leads me to believe that they have great pilots - quite the opposite.

[eliex]

  Okay . . . that's going a bit too far . . .

But maybe 'cause Volition said that they might be symtoms of a much bigger problem, well, then maybe their numbers are
so large because their cloned.

Or even more unrealistic they use other species as integrated into their ships?
 

The only decent bomber is the Nahema, it can dogfight.
GOOD BOMBERS = ONES THAT CAN ONLY LIVE TO FIRE THEIR FIRST ROUND ( and that doesn't even count hitting the target)

[eliex]

 When a fighter gets to the back of a Seraphim < the so-called "ultimate bomber" >
 the bomber can't even fly away!

Sad though that the modern GTVA bombers don't even get turrets on their ships anymore . . .

[spartan_0214]

When a fighter gets to the back of a Seraphim < the so-called "ultimate bomber" >
 the bomber can't even fly away!

Sad though that the modern GTVA bombers don't even get turrets on their ships anymore . . .

     Using this to segue back into the main topic, the Shivans use poorly constructed ships outfitted with uber-shield systems. Anyone remember the first mission in Freespace when you fly against Shivans? It was their uber shields that took forever to take down. The reasons us humans are perhaps the first to successfully combat (or at least quasi-drive off) the Shivans is because of our uncanny ability to adapt. We disabled a Mara and studied it. One of the early cutscenes in Freespace was the successful construction of a shield system for Terran fighters. The Shivans never saw this coming, couldn't adapt. The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry. Anyone remember the original Subach (been too long since I've played the original game, could be something else)? That thing slaughtered the Shivan swarms in the original game. In Freespace 2 the only concern is the Shivans' sheer numbers. Their weapons are fairly powerful, but their numbers are their adaptation, if you will, to our effective combat techniques. It was after we developed the technology to shield our fighters/bombers and penetrate their shields that the Shivans became "weak."
      Then we saw the Lucifer (with invincible - you guessed it - shields) and got our monkey-butts kicked. The only way the GTVA was able to destroy the Lucifer was when we caught it warping into Sol and its shields were down. If you remember in that last mission of Freespace, the Lucifer's hull was fairly weak, allowing the new advanced GTVA technology to make quick work of the behemoth. In Freespace 2, the Shivans more or less adapted to this and thew us another curveball, a Juggernaut that had a strong hull but no shields. Perhaps it is not that the Shivans are actually weak, but rather that they are so used to victory that they no longer (if they ever in the first place were able to) adapt quickly. It was the quick thinking of the GTVA and its collective scientific genius that allowed the Human and Vasudan species to continue to exist. So no, they are not weak, they are strong in force and number, but they cannot adapt as quickly as the humans and must resort to brute force.

[Dark Hunter]

Actually, the Lucifer still has a stronger hull than any other FS1 ship, IIRC. It was just those silly reactors being all exposed that brought it down.


But yeah, I think Spartan's hit the nail on the head: the Shivans are so used to their advanced technology and numbers winning the day that they've forgotten how to improvise and come up with new stuff (it is arguable whether any new Shivan ships in FS2 are "new" or merely "not used in first war").

And yet... they may still have the tech advantage after all... remember that we didn't beat the Shivans in FS2. Capella exploding kinda got in the way of the war... or maybe the GTVA was in the way of the Shivan's true objective, whatever that was. Plus they managed to construct over 80 Sathanes, and I'm willing to bet that that isn't their entire military. Hinting at vast shipyards with production capabilities unparalleled in GTVA tech.

[NGTM-1R]

I've said it before, but it bears a bit of modification.

The Shivans are, very clearly, used to being the aggressors, and they are good at it. They have an excellent grasp of how to use their superior mobility (advanced subspace technologies) to best effect. They understand how to properly exploit shock effect, confusion, and hampered enemy reactions. At the strategic level, the Shivans are quite capable practioners of manuver warfare; the only thing they really seem to lack is a systematic effort to disrupt enemy command, control, and communications. (Or possibly the understanding of Terrans and Vasudans to make such an effort.)

At the tactical level, however, the Shivans are very different. They fight with great ferocity, and are rigorous in their pursuits, but they solve problems by pouring resources on them and use sledgehammers to smash flies. There is little finesse to Shivan operations, and it shows. Their saving grace is that they can afford to do these things, because their opponents often do not have the resources available to exploit their weaknesses.

One could make an excellent parallel with the Soviet Union's army; they had excellent strategic knowledge, and produced some very fine operational- and strategic-level commanders, but at a tactical level they mostly had to resort to blunt force trauma because that was what they could reliably deliever at that level.

The main Shivan advantage, however, is summed up by a quote from Clauswitz. The offence "is complete within itself." The Shivans are pure attackers. You cannot tie them down and force them to defend something. The only targets of real value are their warships themselves. We know the Shivans have logistical targets, cargo craft and cargo depots, but we have never seen a factory. Defeating the Shivans forces one to adopt the most ancient and inefficent method of defeating someone: you have to kill them all. No other method of destroying their warmaking capacity will avail, because those require you to be able to deprive them of the tools or the will to fight. The Shivans are almost without exception xenocidal, and the GTVA has no means of cutting them off from their supplies because these have no apparent source. Victory can only come from destroying each and every Shivan fightercraft and capital ship. And this the GTA/PVN or GTVA simply does not have the firepower to accomplish.

[Charismatic]

Read 1st page, 2nd was too many long replys.

Ok guys, i am very surpirzed im the one mentioning this but:

Was not the expected lifespan of GTVA pilots, every 3-4 misisons before they died? That was mentioned by people at HLP before so im re saying it now.

GTVA's advantage is sole, and was told to us. We adapted. We learned how to adapt and survived by the skin of our teath. We lost FS1, killed Vasuda, and nearly got to Sol. FS2, we sent suicide ships to blow up nodes left and right.

Anyways, guys come On. Stop the stuipd ****. GTVA pilots are superior? What kinda **** is that. What general message did the freespace series give us? Shivans kick ass, and are to be feared. Tehy destroyed the ancients. They outgun us, out nubmer us, and their pilots are just as good, but most likely MUCH better then us.

As said, one human pilot (Alpha 1) can do amazing things, and real people can do a hell of better then a wing of AI, but no respawns..
but, Shivans no dobut were better than us. Are*. FS1 cutseen. Those normaly weak fighters, tore up his ship, and his whole wing (the whole front lines) pirtty dam hard. They had better guns, just the gameplay evens it out some.

And for the love of god. Start playing missions on insane, see how tough Shivan pilots really are. They prove that they are to be feared.  A few hits and your shields are gone, that will get the fear of god in you (Shivans in this case).

Am i the only one who has the same opinions as me?

[jr2]

Read 1st page, 2nd was too many long replys.

Ok guys, i am very surpirzed im the one mentioning this but:

Was not the expected lifespan of GTVA pilots, every 3-4 misisons before they died? That was mentioned by people at HLP before so im re saying it now.
If that
GTVA's advantage is sole, and was told to us. We adapted. We learned how to adapt and survived by the skin of our teath. We lost FS1, killed Vasuda, and nearly got to Sol. FS2, we sent suicide ships to blow up nodes left and right.
True
Anyways, guys come On. Stop the stuipd ****. GTVA pilots are superior? What kinda **** is that. What general message did the freespace series give us? Shivans kick ass, and are to be feared. Tehy destroyed the ancients. They outgun us, out nubmer us, and their pilots are just as good, but most likely MUCH better then us.
maybe
As said, one human pilot (Alpha 1) can do amazing things, and real people can do a hell of better then a wing of AI, but no respawns..
but, Shivans no dobut were better than us. Are*. FS1 cutseen. Those normaly weak fighters, tore up his ship, and his whole wing (the whole front lines) pirtty dam hard. They had better guns, just the gameplay evens it out some.
true
And for the love of god. Start playing missions on insane, see how tough Shivan pilots really are. They prove that they are to be feared.  A few hits and your shields are gone, that will get the fear of god in you (Shivans in this case).
Ya, better play on Insane if you want it more realistic
Am i the only one who has the same opinions as me?
most likely 

[Jeff Vader]

We disabled a Mara and studied it.

That'd be a Dragon. Maras appeared in FS2.

The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.

K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.

Anyone remember the original Subach (been too long since I've played the original game, could be something else)?

And that'd be the Avenger cannon.

Then we saw the Lucifer (with invincible - you guessed it - shields) and got our monkey-butts kicked. The only way the GTVA was able to destroy the Lucifer was when we caught it warping into Sol and its shields were down. If you remember in that last mission of Freespace, the Lucifer's hull was fairly weak, allowing the new advanced GTVA technology to make quick work of the behemoth.

As was already stated, the Lucifer was beaten because 1) it's shield, like the shields of any ship, went down in subspace and 2) because the bombers of the attack group took out the Lucifer's reactors, which lead to some cataclysmic reaction, effectively blowning the ship up.

[karajorma]

There is little finesse to Shivan operations, and it shows.

The strange thing is that they are capable of such finesse (look at the trap they set in Pandora's Box for instance) but don't seem to do it.


Incidentally I just found this debriefing stage in the mission for if you actually manage to scan the cargo containers containing the Shivan shielding equipment.

Your success in acquiring the shield technology against such overwhelming odds has indicated to us that you are, in truth, working with the Shivans.  Your interrogation is scheduled for 0930.  You will be escorted to the brig.

Recommendation : If you are going to cheat, do it a little less blatantly.

[TrashMan]

Anyways, guys come On. Stop the stuipd ****. GTVA pilots are superior? What kinda **** is that. What general message did the freespace series give us? Shivans kick ass, and are to be feared. Tehy destroyed the ancients. They outgun us, outnubmer us, and their pilots are just as good, but most likely MUCH better then us.

Not really. Unless GTVA pilots are better, then FS is more a fairy tale than Cinderella...becoause it's really la stretch to believe that with ALL the friggin advantages, we beaten them back. HEck, I have a  easier time believing the s*** from SW: Episode 1

As said, one human pilot (Alpha 1) can do amazing things, and real people can do a hell of better then a wing of AI, but no respawns..
but, Shivans no dobut were better than us. Are*. FS1 cutseen. Those normaly weak fighters, tore up his ship, and his whole wing (the whole front lines) pirtty dam hard. They had better guns, just the gameplay evens it out some.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the shivans attacked a vasudan and terran PATROLS that were engaged in a skirmish (probably damaged fighters among them already, thinned numbers) without warning. So they had the element of suprise, shielding, far better weapons, probably greater numbers (patrols aren't really big) and a circumstantial advantage (the other two were fighting eachother already).

So HOW does this exactly tell you shivans are amazing fighter pilots?
Especially since the GTVA seemed to be doing quite fine against them (except for the Lucy)

[lenard27]

Maybe Terrans and Vasudans just have a better "Survival Instinct."  Maybe we're just better with our backs up against the wall than the Shivans are.  I don't know.

[Vidmaster]

First:   Play on "Extreme" and then think about it again.

Second:

Without the ridiculously strong Alpha 1 the GTVA would've been wiped out.

  Modify any mission to let the player be an AI pilot and see GTVA obliterated !

Third: And don't forget that the Shivans are absolutly unbeatable until the humans steal the shield technology from them.

[General Battuta]

Hmm. No particular reason to think this, but has anyone considered that the Hallfight Shivans might be a specialized marine caste, a security system, or even biomechanical servitors - rather than actual Shivans?

As Mina Hargrove said, 'Shivans exhibit considerable diversity as species.' Perhaps we anthrocentric humans aren't thinking broadly enough: what if every Shivan vessel is itself a Shivan, a specialized organism?