[karajorma]

Why would either side go in guns blazing in the first place? That's what confuses me. There are some possible reasons, one of which is used in Inferno, but, at the ends of the day, the odds are pretty high that the GTVA is not going to build a Knossos to Earth just to send a War-group through, and it's also unlikely that Earth is going to resist the chance to re-establish its Empire and the resources/knowledge that would include access to.

I doubt that Sol would go in guns blazing either. But there is a reasonable possibility that within a few months to a few years a war could start. Basically what you have here is a motherland/colonies situation. When Sol is reconnected there's a lot of chance for friction between the two. The colonies have had more than 30 years of independence from Sol and have gotten used to doing things their own way.

Now suppose the Knossos is opened and Sol wants to as you said "re-establish its Empire" and to become the centre of the GTVA (especially the Terran half of it). That's going to cause all kinds of friction with the GTVA. They could very easily resent this kind of action and it wouldn't take much for a power struggle to build up between Sol and the Terran side of the GTVA.

Whatever state Sol is in it's going to want to reclaim its place. But if it is militarily powerful then the sabre rattling could actually escalate to a real war.


As for the Vasudans, they could very easily decide that a war between the Terran half of the GTVA and Sol is an internal human matter and simply not get involved. Especially if there are Vasudans in Sol who agree with the war.

[Colonol Dekker]

Human nature. You gotta love it, fights break out over the smallest silliest little misunderstandings. There are no guarantees that it wouldn't be peachy, but no promises that it would either

[AlphaOne]

Well the way i see it the vasudans siding with the terran side of the GTVA is very posible. After all it is not just the terrans that would suffer from a war with the Sol GTA it would be the entire GTVA economy. So a war between the terran side of the GTVA and Sol would bring in the vasudans as well.

However i must admit that the chance of a war breaking out is very slim but it is a chance nevertheless.

Also let us not foget that we can not speak of terran sistems and vasudan sistems anymore. We can speak of sistem mostly inhabited by either vasudans or terrans but the exclusivities went out the window with Capella and the NTF rebelion since a very good way to keep NTF lunatics at bay is to remove the terran sistems exclusivety. Sure in the short term that would bring some unrest but in the long term it would create a balance and it would be very good for the economy of both races.

Also sistems like DS and Beta Aquilae are most definetly heavely populated by both terrans and vasudans that you can rest assured.

And there is another thing we can be sure of while Sol may want to regain its former power and empire it has no way of dooing it withoput a full scale war and has a very great deal to lose from such  an undertaking. NoSol's best option would be to become one of the core sistem The most important ones like DS, Beta Aquilae . They could have representatives in the ruling body of the GTVA abd GTVA command .

However the alliance is reaching its breaking point because it is very limited in its prerogatives since its basicly more of a milatary alliance with the economics folowing.

I believe that with the Sol node reopened there would be a bit of discusions about changing the form of gouverment from its current state to that of a federation or something like that.  This would make both Sol and the GTVA happy since the GTVA sistems can keep their independece whyle at the same time the 3 Major sistems would have control over what is actualy gooing on! Somtheing like a parliament or something similar .

[eliex]

 The Vasudans think that the Terrans are dumb and aggressive but then that was before they really got to know each other.
Besides it's in the human nature to keep on killing - like their never sick of dying.

Valiant, but ill-advised . . . hopefully.

Unless of course that the AI level of your enemies are so bad that 99.99% of the time you stay alive, unless you get hit by an ULTRA-Anti fighter beam.

[AlphaOne]

Well that is one of the reason why there are mixed fleets in the GTVA and that is why ships normaly destroyer sized ships usualy operate at least some pilots form the other race. This is to improve uderstanding and cooperation. Also Capella was not just a terran sistem there was also a strong vasudan presence there but it was mostly terran. A lot of terran pilots and ships were killed/destroyed tring to protect convois form both races and that is something which can not exactly be forgotten easely. I mean I would think something like :" WTF they dies tring to save our asses back there and now you want me to turn they back on them" For what reason?? So that Sol can come and tell me how to live..? No way in hell...!

[karajorma]

Well the way i see it the vasudans siding with the terran side of the GTVA is very posible. After all it is not just the terrans that would suffer from a war with the Sol GTA it would be the entire GTVA economy. So a war between the terran side of the GTVA and Sol would bring in the vasudans as well.

Actually war can be pretty good for economies that sit the war out. If the Vasudans did sit it out they could probably trade to both sides secure in the knowledge that neither side would be dumb enough to attack them. As long as the Vasudans aren't likely to be hit by crossfire they might not consider it a big problem to stay out of the war.

 It's already been stated that after 18 months of fighting in the NTF rebellion that the Alliance was already strained. If Sol was to start a war so soon after the end of the last one there would definitely be calls to not interfere in yet another Terran war. Especially if the Vasudans thought that they could trade with whoever won.

[AlphaOne]

But that would be justa playng stupid to allow the 2 sides to annihalete eachother and when the shivans come then what?? You sjust tell them to comeback later when yu have a chance to increase the size of your fleet 3 times and come up with some uber wweaponj capable of holding them back at bay for alittle longer. No the NTF rebellion might have strained the realationship between the terrans and the vasudans but the shivans reminded them that they need eachotehr more then ever. Niether side could hope to be powerfull enough to withstand the shivans on theyr own. So i believe that not only would the vasudans intervene in the war but they wouldso try to convince the terran side of the GTVA to annihalate the milatary power of Sol as soon as posible and take control over its vas industryal and economic resources not to mention mining operations.


Remember Sol has a vast astereoid belt which can be mined for minerals and not to mention at least one rare gas the GTVA needs who know what else they might have that the GTVA needs badly in order to move tech forwards.

[karajorma]

So in order to make sure that their military isn't depleted when the Shivans come back the Vasudans would get into a war they could avoid?

There are many reasons the Vasudans might enter the war but I really don't think that's one of them.

[Colonol Dekker]

We lasted 14 years against the zods before the reds turned up. I reckon Sol would last at least a month or two.

[AlphaOne]

Agreed they can preserve they milatary by staing out of the war and then what? The terran side of the GTVA would be exausted the Sol forces would be exausted and depleted as well so then what they try to take care of the shivans on their own?? I hardly think so.

No the vasudans if nothing else would serve as a deterrant in case anyone from Sol even thinks about starting a war. I agree that the Sol milatary would be very powerfull perhaps alsmost as powerfull as the entire GTVA fleets but then again the GTVA would definetly win against Sol if they play it smart. Please take note that it will be some time for a gate to be opened to Sol and in the mean time the GTVA can just addapt and improve more shivan tech and implement it into their own ship designs and weapon sistems.

This would be a definitive advantage if sufficient time is alowed for the GTVA over Sol tech. Acces to the latest shivan tech can come very handy . And we know that the GTVA is very adept at reverse engeniering adapting improving alien tech . Hell they did it to some extents and in various areas in a few what weeks months during the Second great war.

[Colonol Dekker]

Hell they did it to some extents and in various areas in a few what weeks months during the Second great war.

When?

[TrashMan]

Either your understanding of the world as it is today is even less rooted in reality than I thought it was or you're attempting to turn an analogy into one of those stupid forum battles where you think that cause you type something it makes it true.

South Africa is the only country in Africa with nukes. It has next to none and it lacks the delivery system to hit Russia.

I said if you want to make a ACCURATE comparison in terms of the power of both sides (Sol & GTVA), not in terms of RL. Since when does Sol have uber-super weapons(the proverbial nukes) and the GTVA doesn't?


Now let's analyze the situation:

1. Manpower
Capella, which on the far side of nowhere has 250 million humans. Look how far it is from Sol and the core of human space - it's definately a later colony.
It's safe to assume that the inner colonies are far better off and with a much higher population, especially the first colonies, like Delta Serpentis. Population is becoming a problem now, so it's safe to assume there's been a LOT of immigration.
It's a safe bet that just the human colonies have a bigger population than Earth. Now factor in the vasudans.

2. Resources
The only exclusive resource mentioned in Sol is Argon gas. In 20+ systems that are mostly vergin territory compared to Sol you can bet you will have a lot more resources than Sol has.

3. Infrastructure
Vasudans, without Vasuda Prime, seem to have a perfectly healthy production infrastructure, since they are replacing all of their destroyers with Hatties. Humans have been recovering slower, but it's a safe bet that they have a good infrastructure as well. After 14 years of war the infrastructure needed to mantain a war machine is surely established on most planets. Hades...Colossuss..and a bunch of new warship classes..I'd say their infrastructure is doing very well.

Let's not forget a nice example of the USA who in a very short ammount of time went from a colony to a power that eclipses it's old home (Europe)

4. Military
2 races with 20+ star system would definately field a bigger war machine than a single system.. Especially after the shivan BBQ demonstration. It wil ltake GTVA 5-10 years to get a Knossos up and running and you cna bet that in that time they WILL beef up their military significantly.

5. Going to War
You say that Earth might be so scared of another sihan invasion that they beefed up their defenses. I agree..in fact, hat's what happens in my campaign. However, there are two things to consider:
- the GTVA beefing up theirs as well
- If they did for fear of shivans, you REALLY think that after contact is re-esablished and the GTVA tells them the shivies used 80 ships (that make Lucy look like a whimp) to blow up a star..that after that they will decide to go to war with the GTVA? If anything thy would be evenmore scared and want an union, insted of a war that could only end up badly..and even in the bestest of best scenarios, weaken them considerably.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the systems/planets had a large degree of autonomy withing the GTA and they have it also with the GTVA now. So I really don' understand what kind of a friction you're reffering to here, since the old way of governing planets would be tthe same as the new.
the only possible friction would be if the Sol government wanted to pull the strings (which is doubtfull, the alliance was formed before the link was severed so the Sol would know how the GTVA works).
Even then, the public support would be vvery questionable.

[Colonol Dekker]

As long as we all get welcome back baskets, full of obligatory whiskey and the like. I'm all for it.

[AlphaOne]

Err remember the terran mara and the Are fighter which is built using reverse engeniered shivan tech well pieces of it anyway i think it was mentioned in the tech room that the ares is the cutting endge in GTVA tech and it was possible in part because of extensive research done into shivan tech's.

[TrashMan]

It's already been stated that after 18 months of fighting in the NTF rebellion that the Alliance was already strained. If Sol was to start a war so soon after the end of the last one there would definitely be calls to not interfere in yet another Terran war. Especially if the Vasudans thought that they could trade with whoever won.

A rebelllion and a war with anohter system are two different things.
Firstly, in a rebellion part of your own forces turn against you. The GTVA lsot 3 systems and a minimum of 3 fleets, if not more, within an instant. Bosch was a excellent strategists who knew how to drag it out, but he knew the NTF was not to last - as he said, it was tool. He didn't expect the rebelion to last himself.

So there is a big difference between fighting a rebelion that eats you up from the inside and turns your own resources against you, and attacking another system with all your forces in tact and under your command.

[Jeff Vader]

Err remember the terran mara and the Are fighter which is built using reverse engeniered shivan tech

The Are? If you mean the Ares, it was merely a Herc2, that was taken into Pimp My Ride. If you mean the Erinyes, it was indeed a funky ship, but wasn't based on Shivan technology. The Kayser, on the other hand, was. It was the preferred primary weapon on the Erinyes and it was created after extensive research on Shivan weapon technology.

[TrashMan]

If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..

[AlphaOne]

Yeah sorry about that i meant to say the Ares ! The tech room i believe states that some shivan tech was implemented into the Ares and that the Erynyes was in some ways influenced by shivan tech ! The kaiser is obviusly one weapon of choice and what a weapon it is! The terran Mara was a formidable ship and you can rest assured something based on the Terran mara is soon to come in order to replace the Herc as the main Heavy fighter for the GTVA !

The Mara is more then capable of taking over for the Herc II and a very good dogfighter hell its better then some space superiority fighter in the GTVA !

[Jeff Vader]

If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..

But it was never explicitly stated that they had Shivan tech in them. Therefore, it is pure speculation to assume that they had Shivan tech in them.

Yeah sorry about that i meant to say the Ares ! The tech room i believe states that some shivan tech was implemented into the Ares and that the Erynyes was in some ways influenced by shivan tech !

GTF Erinyes craft are fresh off the drawing boards of Triton Dynamics. Though fast and heavily armored, their main attraction is firepower. With eight primary banks and two secondary weapon bays, Erinyes are at the top of the combat craft food chain. Both sets of weapon banks have been designed to maximize compatibility with the greatest possible number of weapon system. Erinyes-class ships are being evenly distributed through the GTVA fleet, but only elite pilots are currently authorized to fly them.

The GTF Ares class of fighters is a radical upgrade of the Hercules II fighter. The power plant has been completely replaced with the newer, more powerful Nankam NA-27f model. Depleted uranium shielding has been added atop critical subsystems, making the Ares harder to incapacitate. Two primary weapon banks have been added, for greater firepower than the Herc II. This greater punch and protection come at a cost, however, as the Ares handles like a potato.

Not a single word about Shivans there.

[TrashMan]

If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..

But it was never explicitly stated that they had Shivan tech in them. Therefore, it is pure speculation to assume that they had Shivan tech in them.

Not shivan tech directly..shivan DERIVED tech.