Author Topic: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos  (Read 23885 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Well if we think about the term 'Shivan influence' as wide as possible, don't you think that Terran ships had Shivan influence back in the Great war? I mean, they did capture a Dragon and study it. They reverse-engineered it. They monitored Shivan fighters and learnt how to enable inter-system jumps for fighters. So in this case we shouldn't state that 'new' craft have some Shivan in them, when probably the originall Hercules had 'some Shivan' in it. As well as some older weapons. Not to mention sensors, shields and such. Right?

The Herc and Ursa were already under development during the Great War. It's possible that some modifications have been made (shielding for sure, altough the GTA has been experimenting with them before).
One thing's for sure - the newer fighters have much more then the old ones.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Bomber's don't though.

Ursa and Sehkmet kick the crap out of anything else.

If you already happen to have more than enough gold mines, oil rigs, and mines and factories of all types you won't be building new ones. There has to be a NEED for something. Otherwise it's not really profitable.

There has to be a need. But if it's more profitable to mine a new system than the already settled ones then the new systems are what will get mined. Expansion into new systems means little in terms of how heavily exploited a system is. It's simply a measure of how cheap it is to exploit new systems.

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Mining on a planet, like Earth, is surely cheaper than from asteroids. You won't do it unless you realyl need those resources or the resources are unique.


Pretty much every sci-fi universe disagrees with you. So does real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

And you're still ignoring the fact that many people move to colonies just to look for a new life.

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Do you have trouble reading? I said that a quick recovery is possible, but it doesn't happen in 2 years.. the first few years are allways troublesome..so speaking of a economic collapse of the GTA - it's nothing uncommon, and it hasn't been stated how long it lasted or anything.

Exactly. It might have lasted long enough to keep the GTVA weaker than Sol.

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Even 4 of the smallest and most pitifull states on Earth can form a block. Does that mean they are powerfull? All we know is that 4 regional blocks were formed. We have NO IDEA how powerfull they were - neither industrialy, military or politicly.

But if the Luyten New Alliance and Adhara Coalition are weak it doesn't bode well for your claims that the GTVA is very strong does it? Especially since the game says that they were "major entities."

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Oh - as I said before, a rebellion and a war can't be compared in therms of military might. +4 systems and +4 fleet for the rebelion means -4 systems and -4 fleets for the GTVA. And don't forget the turncoats, saboteurs and surprise attack that weakened the GTVA quite extensivly at the begining of the rebelion.

Sol would have no such luck.

Why? The NTF proved there there were tonnes of people who did want "a utopia that would restore the grandeur of the lost world." Sol would get all kinds of traitors and turncoats, both from the lost generation who signed up to fight for Bosch and from those old enough to remember the GTA under Sol and prefer it that way.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 09:34:24 am by karajorma »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
And you think a lot of people from Sol wouldn't become turncoats or refuse to fight against their brothers, or even fight for them? :lol:
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Profitwise its more lucrative for a company to stake a claim to a ripe system before anyone else. 
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Except there are no systems for Sol to claim..node being closed and all. But I guess there's enough asteroids to mine.

Methinks the GTVA is more than powerfull enough to take on Sol. Why?
Well, apparently, even tough they had a economic collapse, they not only managed to overcome it rather quickly (32 years), but have also expanded in that time, made new colonies (apparenlty, good, powerfull colonies), made experimantal super ships (Hades, Colossuss), while upgrading and retrofiting all existing ships, designing and bulding new ones (Hecate, Deimos, Sobek, Aeolus, Mentu) up to the point where they were completely replacing old ships with new ones (The Hattie) and ended up with a military that dwarfed that of the GTVA and PVN...

All that in 32 years. Seems to me the colonies are more than capable of pulling their own weight. :rolleyes:
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Offline karajorma

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Bit of a spurious argument considering we don't know what new classes Sol would have built.

No one is saying the GTVA hasn't recovered from the Great War Trashman. I think you're arguing with a strawman there. I'm simply saying that although the GTVA might be powerful, without the Vasudans it might not be as powerful as Earth.

And you think a lot of people from Sol wouldn't become turncoats or refuse to fight against their brothers, or even fight for them? :lol:

I didn't say that. I was only shooting holes in your nonsense about not having traitors in the GTVA.

Likely both sides would have traitors. I suspect the GTVA would have more though for the reasons I mentioned.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 11:34:58 am by karajorma »
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
I meant for GTVA systems. That aside, the sol-Ds node is a bottleneck assuming that gta forces have roving patrols any incursions via said node would be me with bulk sol forces . Anyone who has seen wing commander movie knows what that would look like.
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Offline terran_emperor

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Sol has become the Holy Grail...pretty much...I agree that there will be many defectors in a war. The lost Generation, those GW veterens still alive (Hey, for all we know. Humans could live till about 150 in FS universe and special medtech could give people greater longevity, making an 80 year old similar in health and fitness to 30 year old)...Also, those unhappy with the GTVA...and possibly young hotshots who want to see the Legendary blue planet...

By the time a gate to Sol is constructed...Sol will have been isolated for nearly a centuary
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Offline karajorma

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
You're making an awfully big assumption about the time it will take to build that gate. It might be a smaller project than the Colossus.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
I'd say 5-10 years...tops.

And we don't know how the Earthlings feel towards the GTVA. It's quite possible they look at the GTVA as a holy grail :P
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Offline karajorma

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Possible. It's possible they wouldn't.

That's why I keep saying it's silly to start saying that perfectly reasonable things are impossible just because you've stacked up all the assumptions against them.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
I'd say the Knossos would take 10 years to open up a portal (from the current state, including experiments &c) and 15 years after to have it 100% stable. No doubt that it won't work at first... it's only experimental at that phase. I'd also think that, with opening a node to Sol, they'd first construct a Terran Knossos and make it work on another collapsed node. Once they confirm it working, they'll have tweaked the design enough to build a Sol-DS node.
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Offline jr2

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Experience vs numbers and tech. Vietnam anyone? 

You forgot political BS.  That's what lost the war  WHO THE FREAKING HECK FIGHTS A WAR WHERE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED INTO THE ENEMIES' TERRITORY???  OH... nvm.  And breaking your promises to allies...  We had handed that war over to S. Vietnam, they were doing OK, perhaps would have been a Korea type of stalemate, but then we stopped supplying them with parts and ammo.  Woops.  Meh... whats a few tens of thousands of S. Vietnamese blood on your hands... go freaking Congwess.

 

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
well i do not agree with the asumption that it will take 15 years to open the Sol node. I mean the GTVA understanding and tech of subspace may be limited when compared to the shivans but they are by no means retarted . Also i believe that some scientist in FS2 said that they have enough data colected for the GTVA to start construction of their own Knossos portal. Sure there will be costs involved but hell when you think aboyut it reopening the node to sol may be the only thing that will keep the GTVA from falling appart under the presures of the refugeez and other problems. Since we all know even if they are not welcomed the fact that they have a way to go home would boost terran morale and economy. Since everyone would be eager to return home.

With all of this said i believe the GTVA will concentrate on opening the Sol node first and rebuilding theyr fleets. With the Sol opening taking precedence.

I mean tehre are no major design changes to be made since its basicly s maller version of the knossos sure there will be some minor details but most of the work researh the basic tech is already there.

Perhaps a max of 10 years to open the node . thats my take on it!
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Experience vs numbers and tech. Vietnam anyone? 

Actually, the only reason the US "lost" that war was because of the lack of national support. In actuality, the US won pretty much every major engagement. IIRC the US lost ~58,000 men and the vietnamese lost ~ a million.

And another thing, how would this be excperience vs numbers and tech. I'm assuming the GTVA is the side with the numbers on it. There is no garuntee that they have technological superiority. And I'd be willing to bet the GTVA had more Great War vets and such than Sol alone.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
I'd actually say that the GTVA tech >> Earth tech in any case

1. GTVA has more scientists of both races. Especially vasudans.
2. GTVA has scans of the Lucifer, the Sath, has captured shivan fighters and it's unknown what else it has (pieces from the Saths debris?)

Sol has some Lucifer debris so I'm sure they'll come up with some pretty interesting techs too. They would be different probably, but in the grand scheme of things GTVA would have the obvious advantage.
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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
For portal completion time, story sources mention 5 - 15 years. Ultimately it's just a bunch of speculation. There is no solid completion schedule given in canon, just guesses.

The thing that concerns me about the current force levels of the GTVA is the fact that they'd invested so much in their super battlewagon, the Colossus. There is a tendency among people, especially politicians to overestimate the ability of "ultimate weapons" and neglect the rest of their military assets. It is my feeling that this may have been the attitude prevalent in GTVA leadership up until the time of the destruction of the Colossus.

I personally feel that had not so many eggs been placed in the Colossus basket that the resources and personell might have been put to good use in other areas. The Shivans would possibly have faced a much stronger regular fleet that what they did. The Sathanas juggernaut class, while undeniably powerful, proved somewhat vulnerable to coordinated bomber and capitol ship strikes. A more numerous GTVA standard capitol ship fleet might have been able to exploit this with better results.

I personally think that had more of the corvette and destroyer classes been available, the Sathanas fleet may not have rolled over the GTVA quite so easily, although to what extent is arguable. I don't think a successful blockade of the Gamma Draconis - Capella node would be impossible, at least in the short term while the system was evacuated and the meson ships were prepared.

This point does however make sense. It also gives a good indication that the GTVA's conventional unit strength was likely given lower priority, even downsized from Great War levels. This is a very common attitude amongst politicians once the immediate need for large well trained and equipped military passes. Almost immediatly after the present danger has passed they are busy snipping and paring away at their military, no matter what possible threat may be on the horizon. It is this which leads me to belive that the GTVA might not be as powerful in comparison to Sol as the more willfully stubborn forumites would like to assume.

Another part of the equation is the home system is totally cut off from the colonies. No traffic, no communication. They have no idea if the Shivans are no longer a threat or if they are waiting for the reestablishment of the jump node to finish off the Terran species they've possibly made extinct in the rest of the colonies.

It's quite logical to suppose that the Sol system would have gone into a steady plan of warship construction and development that would have lasted well beyond the Great War and likely continued up until the reopening of the subspace node. That the Terran fleet is possibly more numerous and advanced than anything the GTVA has in its inventory, is not that big a stretch of the imagination.

Also, Sol had full access to all Shivan and Vasudan research before the node collapsed. I doubt that quantity obtained by the GTVA since is any big change.

Depending on a lot of factors, the home system could easily become hostile to the GTVA. An easy to envision scenario would have the GTVA threaten to close the Knossos portal or restrict its use should Sol refuse to agree to some item of petty import to the GTVA. I have no doubt that the Sol system would take measures to prevent that from happening very quickly. A tense situation that could quite easily spill over into open hostilities.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
I'd actually say that the GTVA tech >> Earth tech in any case

1. GTVA has more scientists of both races. Especially vasudans.
2. GTVA has scans of the Lucifer, the Sath, has captured shivan fighters and it's unknown what else it has (pieces from the Saths debris?)

Sol has some Lucifer debris so I'm sure they'll come up with some pretty interesting techs too. They would be different probably, but in the grand scheme of things GTVA would have the obvious advantage.

If Sol was the economic, cultural and political capital of the GTA it was likely the academic capital too. It could be that most of the universities were on Vasuda Prime and Earth. So it could be that the smartest scientists were in Sol.

And thats before we get onto population. You still haven't proved that Sol doesn't have a population larger than the rest of the old GTA. It's quite possible it did. Given the number of casualties on Vasuda Prime it could be that Sol has larger population than the entire GTVA. It would take 5 systems the size of Capella to equal the current population of China alone.

So less of the assumptions that the GTVA has more scientists. Yet again there isn't the data to say this at all.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Given the rate of population growth, the available space and number of colonies, it's more likely the population of the colonies is greater than Sol
After all, the habitat in Sol is limited, the 20+ planets have more than enough room.
Let's also not forget that the population on Earth has increased from less than a billion to more than 6 billion in less than 100 years.

We also know that Sol had research outposts all over the GTA, the techroom confirms that. Thus, there were more than enough scientists spread around and colonies would also have schools and universities, they won't be confined to Earth.

Last, but not least  - isn't the USA the military and economicly most powerul nation in the world? Cut it off them the rest of the world - who will be hit worse by that cut - the US or the rest of the world? The US f'course. Being the biggest means you also export and outsource the most, and then you're also affected the most by a collapse like that.

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It's quite logical to suppose that the Sol system would have gone into a steady plan of warship construction and development that would have lasted well beyond the Great War and likely continued up until the reopening of the subspace node. That the Terran fleet is possibly more numerous and advanced than anything the GTVA has in its inventory, is not that big a stretch of the imagination.

GTVA has acess to Ancient ruins, the Knossos, scans and parts of numerous shivan vessels of which many are the newest and latest designs. That is a BIG bonus in terms of tech development for them.
And 20+ systems have the abilty to support a much bigger war machine, not to mention that the Capella BBQ might push the GTVA into a large military production more than any Lucy would. 80 Saths parading recently are a reason for fear - 1 Lucy parading 40 years ago really isn't.

After all, let's say Sol had been biulding up it's military. After 30 years of peace and no shivies in sight, do you really think they will keep up the pace?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: How would the Terrans/Vasudans on Earth react to the GTVA - Knossos
Let's put it this way. The GTI built the Hades in secret from the rest of the government in a few months. The GTVA took 20 years to build the Colossus.

You still want to tell me the GTVA recovered from reconstruction to a degree greatly surpassing their former power?
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