[FreeSpaceFreak]

You can't prove your theory. What we know leads us to think that the NTF designed the Iceni from scratch.

You don't get the point. Let's take an example. The F-35 Lightning II, aka Joint Strike Fighter. How long have they been designing it, and how many have already been built? Exactly.
Now let's take a SPACESHIP, with MUCH MORE ADVANCED technology, and at least 50 TIMES BIGGER. And you're saying it could be developed AND built by the NTF in maximum 18 months? No way. There are two possibilities:
1. Bosh designed the Iceni himself, and he built it using GTVA money. The GTVA would want to know what it's paying, so they would know what kind of ship Bosh is building. Only then (which is VERY unlikely) do the Terrans realise they don't have any serious anti-capship vessels in development, and they would start planning to build more Iceni's.
2. The Iceni was a secret GTVA prototype for a future battlefrigate, Bosh stole it and finished it off.

Either way, the GTVA would have built more Iceni's. The only other Terran ship with serious anti-capship capacities is the Orion, and it's becoming increasingly outdated. The Colossus can't be everywhere at the same time, so that one doesn't count either.

[Mobius]

Find proofs, then. And who said that the NTF wasn't able to build a ship from scratch in 18 months(or more, since we have reason to believe that the rebellion has been planned before)?

FreeSpaceFreak: Helloo? FreeSpace is in the future!!!

[Snail]

As I said before, I think Bosch just got approval by pulling a few strings here and there, maybe bribing the odd corrupt official. Once he had done that, he was free to create his own frigate for his ETAK project.

I cannot agree with anyone who says the Iceni was designed to be a new form of GTVA ship. It obviously was not, we are led to believe it was either created during the 18 months of rebellion or before that, or even in secret. It was not a ship that was supposed to be mass produced, and it never was. The fact that the GTVA did not recognize the design (for the first few missions it is called "Unknown NTF" as well as "NTF Frigate," not NTF Iceni. It was a new design which the GTVA either did not know about or were unaware of.

The conclusion: The Iceni was a new design created by Bosch for the purpose of being his flagship and as a place to conduct his ETAK research. It was not and should not be considered a new GTVA design.

[TrashMan]

Just designing a fighterplane takes YEARS. A carrier? Even more.

It's VERY unlikely the NTF designed and built it in just 18 months. Design plans were probably started long before the rebellion. It is possible Bosch made some modifications to the Iceni during it's construction, maybe even during the design phase.

[Snail]

Uhh the Iceni's a frigate, not a carrier but that's not important.

I believe that Bosch planned his rebellion years prior and had the Iceni created a long time before the rebellion. Months or even years before the rebellion.

Ultimately, my conclusion is that it was never a design for the GTVA, and I find it silly to even think of it.

[AlphaOne]

So the fact that the GTVA does not "recognize" it initiali is suposed to be wonder eh..??

So the fact that the GTVA let Bosch and the Iceni go doesnt make you wonder now does it?? Come on Command was bul****ting you the whole time. They DID KNEW about the Iceni they DID let it escape and they lie through theyr teeth. Come on they even sabotaged the Collie in order to let the Iceni go. They were not so much interested in capturing the Iceni since they already had the plans for it but they were interested in getting theyr hands on the ETAK even Bosch was of little consequence to them.

They just wanted the ETAK and that is it.

[Snail]

You know I get sick of these discussions real fast.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

@Mobius: The first prototype of the P-51 Mustang, a WW2 fighter, was delivered only four months after the designing was started. It first saw service another 18 months later.
The first F-35 prototype flew in October 2000. We're 2008 now, and it's not yet operational due to the modern tech in it. The tech gap between the Iceni and the F-35 is most likely even bigger than the tech gap between the F-35 and the P-51.

@Snail: Ever heard of Area 51, aka Groom Lake? A lot of new airplanes have been/are being developed there which even many high-ranking USAF generals don't know about, let alone the lone pilot in the field. And Bosh didn't pull the Iceni out of his arse. Even an Ursa is said to cost more than a small moon. Extrapolate that to a frigate, and you get more than a single admiral can pay.

[Hades]

I think that Bosch was in charge of the Iceni project, then stole it, and the plans to the ship.
Only about 30% .

[karajorma]

BFGreen is overloaded BGreen.

Wrong! The LRBGreen is what the Colossus actually had in Hign Noon. The Colossus is only armed with the BFGreen in one mission and never fires it.

Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.

It's quite clearly stated that one of the main problems is the heat sinks. You propose to have bigger heat sinks on a smaller ship?

But if Iceni have 3 BGreen, then I don't seen a problem that modern superdestroyer could have 3x BFGreen as standard fire mode (and maybe LRBGreen as secondary fire mode).

How about the fact that that this is significantly more firepower than anything else in its class? It's one thing to say that you think that beam technology has gotten better so you can upgrade the superdestroyers. What makes it fanwank is that you aren't also upgrading the Colossus.

If a superdestroyer can mount 3 BFGreens then a Juggernaut 12 times its volume should mount at least 12 and more likely somewhere between 24 and 32. Now go compare that against the Sathanas' 4 BFReds. Ridiculous isn't it?

[TrashMan]

Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.

It's quite clearly stated that one of the main problems is the heat sinks. You propose to have bigger heat sinks on a smaller ship?

I'm gonna jump into the fire here and say it is possible. It all depends on how you design a ship. Sacrifices will have to be made of course, since making a ship..making ANYTHING is always a BALANCING act. And there's always poorly designed and well designed ships.

You want really powerful beams? K'.. But you get less oft hem..and less armor..Oh, and your ship will also be slower, since we need to draw more power from the engines. What? You want to keep the armor? Well damn, we'll have to re-size the fighterbay then.. how much smaller? Let me put it this way..call it "my personal shuttle bay".

[Hades]

Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.

It's quite clearly stated that one of the main problems is the heat sinks. You propose to have bigger heat sinks on a smaller ship?

I'm gonna jump into the fire here and say it is possible. It all depends on how you design a ship. Sacrifices will have to be made of course, since making a ship..making ANYTHING is always a BALANCING act. And there's always poorly designed and well designed ships.

You want really powerful beams? K'.. But you get less oft hem..and less armor..Oh, and your ship will also be slower, since we need to draw more power from the engines. What? You want to keep the armor? Well damn, we'll have to re-size the fighterbay then.. how much smaller? Let me put it this way..call it "my personal shuttle bay".

By the time they finish redesigning they will have much better Reactors, Heat Sinks, Armor, Weapons, and Engines.

[Snail]

I think that if TrashMan was a real designer, all his ships would overheat when they did anything else other than move.

[karajorma]

The point is saying that GTVA technology allows you to stick better cannons on a superdestroyer than a juggernaut is ridiculous.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

How about the fact that that this is significantly more firepower than anything else in its class? It's one thing to say that you think that beam technology has gotten better so you can upgrade the superdestroyers. What makes it fanwank is that you aren't also upgrading the Colossus.

If a superdestroyer can mount 3 BFGreens then a Juggernaut 12 times its volume should mount at least 12 and more likely somewhere between 24 and 32. Now go compare that against the Sathanas' 4 BFReds. Ridiculous isn't it?

I don't quite get your point here.
1. The Iceni is a class on its own, there is nothing to compare it with.
2. The Iceni hasn't got a fighterbay => more internal space for reactors, heat sinks, and everything else you need to get 3 BGreens on a ship its size.
3. One BFRed is AT LEAST as strong as 3 BFGreens. Check out the wiki if you don't believe me.

[Snail]

Sure the Shivans have more firepower in their beams. Why can't we just replicate that power? And while we're at it, replicate their 80 juggernauts? And if we can do that, we can OBVIOUSLY make stars explode, too, can't we?

[karajorma]

I was talking about his ridiculous superdestroyer not the Iceni.

And 12 was a very low estimate for number. Even 24 is low given that his entire fleet of superdestroyers which supposedly mass less than half of a single Colossus have 18.

[mr.WHO]

"my" superdestroyer DO sacrifice something for 3 x BFGreen.

Collosus has 12 beams, from which 6 are BGreen that can be overloaded to LRBGreen.

If you get rid of all 12 for 3 BFGreen and add modern reactors you would be able to have them, at least for "overload mode".

(I belive that Collie has somehow old reactors, coz it's the core of every ship, upgrading the reactor in the middle of construction would take ages - not to mention that old Tyhons had a lots of problems with old reactors, coz they were unable to refit them will better reactors - this meand that refit of the reactor require complete redesign of ship interior)

[TrashMan]

By the time they finish redesigning they will have much better Reactors, Heat Sinks, Armor, Weapons, and Engines.

And so will the other ships. Your point?

You carrier now has a +10 power due to new reactors and can mount better beams. But so does the battleship. The tech level doesn't go up only for your dear ship class.

I think that if TrashMan was a real designer, all his ships would overheat when they did anything else other than move.

If I were a designer my ships would actually work and be good at what they do.. Your's would just aspolode when you look at them the wrong way.

[mr.WHO]

Another point in BS+Ca  vs Collie mk.2

Smaller ships are easier and faster to refit than large behemots  - another flexibility favor that is needed when you're in war.