Author Topic: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.  (Read 91930 times)

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Offline Dread

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
I'm one of the other sources StarLord has found on Robotech. Given what I remember of the Leviathan ship generation rules, the turrets only dish out a maximum of 6 points of damage. But, the key is, that it must be on the leviathan scale, rather than the fighter scale. If the turrets only did 6 points of damage total, then a flight of heavy fighters could tear a battleship up. If the ratio converts from 1 to 100, then you have something that may be much more reasonable.

Damage scales are much different between leviathan and interceptor. If I remember correctly, a full 10 by 10 armor square (100 boxes) in Interceptor is equal to a single armor square in Leviathan. That's a 1 to 100 difference, if I have my math right. Of course, I'm tired, and not thinking straight, so the armor and damage may actually be limited to 1 to 10 ratio.

So, a turret factor of 6 means either 60 or 600 points of damage on the Interceptor scale.

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Interesting! question is: it might be a little hard to absolutely cling to the RL model in freespace regarding damage, since in leviathan battles, losses are inevitable: at the fighter scale, numerical superiority is the only way to take down a ship of the line.

However, the turret system of freespace is pretty good IMO. I would be more worried about the bays (especially the 100 ones).

P.S: dreadnaught, welcome to the freespace lair. If you do not know what the freespace universe is, rest assured that this community will succeed in making you a freespace addict  :lol:
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 02:06:24 pm by starlord »

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
     I would honestly be more concerned with emulating the feel of the Renegade Legion universe rather than translating stats exactly from one game to another. I mean in game a player doesnt know the specifics of how much damage a ship is dishing out, but if it feels like two capital ships going at it then that's what matters.

 

Offline Backslash

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  • Bring Our Might To Bear
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
I'm still trying to get my mind around the scale of the ships and the sheer amount of guns/turrets. :eek2:
How fast do they fire?
How accurate are they?  (This scale you mention suggests that most turrets are more designed/intneded for Leviathan-Leviathan combat as far as I understand?)
Do they all tend to concentrate on one main target, or do they fire at everything in range?  (If you would, answer that in both "in theory" and "in practice/on average"... sure, maybe in theory they can fire at hundereds of targets at once, but is that supposed to happen in an average encounter?)

If large 'banks' of guns tend to fire on one thing at a time, that is good because in Freespace you could make one turret with many firepoints, as Topgun said.  I'm pretty sure the AI of such a turret only aims at one target at a time (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

Not sure about the missile subsystem question... I do know that missions can be scripted to have an event like "When subsystem 'this' is destroyed, disable the following list of turrets", so that may do what you need.

My package of Battle for Jacob's Star arrived today (couldn't find the old one so got a copy on half.com :) ) so I'm off to get a bit more familiar with this stuff. :D

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Be careful: jacob is not exactly new: Prepare to face the dreaded DOS configs ;7

As for your question regarding the bays, each of them would fire at one target only (all guns simultaneously) although they could snipe a few shots at fighters, althoughthe  point defense turrets are much better at that job.

One thing also: There will be no dedicated missile turrets on the leviathans (we need to stay under the 100 turret limit) so destroying individual silos is out of the question: I was thinking if it was possible for a ship to spawn cap ship missiles (without turrets) at any angle to attacking ships: The only way to destroy the missile system (which would be destroyed in it's entirety then) would be to destroy the missile targeting subsystem, preventing any launch.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 04:49:36 am by starlord »

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Also, how many fighters can the freespace 2 engine handle simultaneously? Considering what I know regarding the renegade legion: the "swarm" interceptor attack will be just about the only thing permitting fighters (at least at first) to duke it out with the leviathans. In the manuals, we're talking about entire wings (1 wing= 360 fighters) of interceptors sometimes.

Of course we're not going to throw so many into the fray simultaneously, but how about 70-80 (friend and foe) being constantly regenerated as the carriers constantly launch replacement fighters? is this feasable?

 

Offline Topgun

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
not nearlly that much. I think the ship limet is like what? 150?

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
     The problem I'd say with trying to translate Leviathan is that the game is simply that, about Leviathans. Not fighters. Universes like Freespace, Star Wars, Wing Commander, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5 they're all fighter-orientated on some level. Whereas Leviathan I think is more realistic, and more epic in scope. Tiny little fighters aren't going to do too much to kilometer long battlecruisers. I mean, even compare that to Freespace . . . when you fight the Sathanas, is it destroyed with fighters? No. It's damaged with fighters and then its destroyed by the Colossus. You have to think about "this is an awesome ship of destruction, how can I bring it into the game engine and still make it fun". Maybe you can look at the large ships as sort of back ground story pieces, but for the actual gameplay look more at Interceptor for what you want to achieve.  Or think about taking out the large ships over multiple missions with different objectives. Or of course the simplest thing is to lower the power of the heavier ships, and boost the power of fightercraft while still trying to maintain the flavour of the universe/story (simplest thing though not neessarily the easiest).

    It's kind of like the Star Trek MOD that was around a few years ago (dunno if it's still around), I never understood the point of that MOD to be honest because Star Trek is ship combat. Not fighter combat. So why bring it into a fighter-combat game?

 

Offline Dread

  • 22
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Ok... From what I recall of the game, the bay weapons are not capable of tracking a fighter group. They are strictly anti-starship in nature. The turrets can inflict damage on another leviathan, but the amount is really negligeable given the ranges. Damage potential falls off after about 3 or 4 hexes in the game. Some bay weapons have damage potential out beyond 20 hexes, and it drops pretty low, but any fighters destroyed by these weapons were just unlucky.

The turret weapons were powerful, sure, but, if I recall correctly, if they couldn't get a fix through the fighter's flicker shield, they couldn't hurt the fighter. I know the fighters have shields, just like the Leviathans. The flicker rate is how many times the shield switches on and off in a second, I think. The sheild is not like Star Trek. They are intense gravity bubbles that can actually distort a laser bolt. They flicker on and off because the power demand to keep them on is too high. Switching them on and off allows the power consumption to stay manageable.

The damage potentials bandied back and forth on the Leviathan scale are huge compared to the Interceptor level. I don't think it would be unheard of to award one-shot kills. The truism, "Safety in numbers" is very much apt when it comes to a fighter attack on a Leviathan. Of course, the lighter the Leviathan in question, the less damage potential it carries. Where a battleship would have a turret factor of 6 in close, a destroyer might have a 2. The weapons are still horrendous to a fighter, but they are much less like a GOD-GUN than are the turrets aboard a battleship.

The single failing to this is that I may be wrong. I have not looked at my games in years. It will late April, early May before I even can think about getting to them.

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Hey Dread, you haven't been beamed yet!

:welcomered:

For welcome speeches, see this thread for some nice examples (one of the admins complained about it lately, so I won't write one here).

@starlord: I don't know about the number of ships, but there is a limit to the shots flying around simultaneously. Max 350, and with 70-80 fighters, you get there pretty quick, I guess.

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Regarding the bays sniping at fighters, you'll get your answer there: http://members.tripod.com/~Cwintel/leviathan.pdf

Also, regarding the flicker shield, since it's impossible for freespace to do a turn on/off shield, we'll stick with a normal shield for fighters and capships.

Also, the primary interceptor attack would be detect weakness/strike swiftly: In short, they will mainly hinder ships (by destroying components like turrets, comm arrays, spinal mounts, weapon bays, missile systems, or even engines). However, as technology evolves, we will begin to witness hell missiles being used as torpedoes against capships, and the apparition of anti cap ship fighters (tchack'mul and the kessrith designed vrak'tar prototype: the only fighter capable of carrying a spinal mount) ;7

Also, if possible: Backslash, could you get me some pics at RL and TOG freighters in jacob? I haven't gone that far because of DOS issues.

Alakabeth: Regarding leviathan, I believe the fighters there are a very valuable asset, but mainly for the points I stated above: It wasn't the collosus who disabled the sathanas's firing power, it was fighter craft. Yet with later dedicated designs, this will slowly change.
Also, star trek DOES have fighters (valkyries, typhoons, etc...). Making a MOD (which is still active, besides) is very useful.

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
    RE: Weapon bays, hmmn personally if I were you I'd try to simply the number of "bays" to something far less numerous. The Shiva for example has 600 guns not including turrets. That's a little silly. The point of Bays in the boardgame is for ease of gameplay, the player doesnt want to roll 600 dice. So instead even the largest battleship only has 12 bays plus a spinal plus some defensive turrets and missiles. I think for example I'd probably take the number of guns in a bay, and divide that by a factor of 10. So the Shiva, the biggest of the warships (that I'm aware of) would have like 65 turrets plus some antifighter turrets and one big main gun. I'm not sure how 2.75km translates to Freespace ships . . . but I mean, ultimately what I'd want is to keep things manageable and at the same time make the ship combat look cool. So maybe for example the BAY turrets are swarm type like the Centauri Twin Arrays. So they fire a bunch of shots at once and it looks hella cool. Similarly, they're not really that great at targeting fighters I think which fits in with the Leviathan fluff.

    For the antiship missiles, I dunno, if you want 360' missiles why not make the missiles fighter craft? Have them launch from the ship, fly towards their target and do a kamikaze attack like the Anubises did in FS1. Using FredOpen you can also make them bomb-targetable (with the B key). The missiles sound fairly potent so I think it would be good to restrict them somewhat anyway. And having them as fighter craft does that very well.  You could either have them leave a hangar, or appear near the ship with no warp signature, but that might be wierd as they may be facing the wrong direction etcetera. Hangar or a "missile bay" makes more sense. Maybe with FredOpen you can have them appear from any subsystem (ie a missile launcher subsystem), I'm not sure really.

   As for the spinal mount, one idea might be to make it a beam weapon. Except give it a very short firing time. It moves at near speed of light or somesuch I think I read. The benefit to being a beam weapon instead of a projectile is that you can have the big warm up sounds and anticipation to firing. If it just fires some massive projectile out it's about as dramatic as the Leviathan's ventral missile launcher (ie not very). Unless you can get some cool warm up sounds with a projectile.

   And if you look at fighter numbers, the limit seems to be about 72 craft save for the Carriers (well the Repulse has 144). So . .. you're not really going to have to worry about a ton of fighters in the mission at any one time. Unless you've got some huge BoE going on . . . one good thing though is that because pretty much every ship carries fighters you can have the player based on smaller ships in the start of the story.


   As for Flicker shields . .. flicker shields basically provide continuous coverage. They don't sorta turn on and off leaving the fighter/ship obviously vulnerable sometimes, and not others. Rather they rapidly flicker many times over the course of a second giving overall coverage but at the same time leaving some vulnerability. In Centurion, the players had to first try to discover the flicker-pattern before firing. If they got the pattern, the target would take the full brunt of all the players weaponry as the tank could time the shots to coincide with a time when the shield was down. If they failed, then only a few weapons could breach the shield unhindered. But basically you'd probably have to go with normal shields and it wouldn't matter too much either way.


   As for Star Trek. They may have introduced fighters but the fact remains that fighters don't play any sort of central role in Star Trek. Maybe they brought them out as some neato weapons for the dominion war or something, I don't know, but the vast majority of combat in ST is ship to ship, period. If some people are still making a MOD for it that's cool, though I personally don't see the point.

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Actually, regarding the bays, thanks to the several hit points turrets, I think this is possible to model the exact number of guns the ships have (In that case, a 100 gun bay would count as 1 turret or subsystem). I would use small beams (anti-fighter) clustered together.

Regarding cap ship missiles, those missiles are not antifighter (some point defense turrets contain anti fighter missiles) but these ones are nuclear anti ship missiles/torpedoes. Knowing that silos run throughout the ship, the only way to disable the whole system will be to destroy the missile targeting subsystem. Those missiles can be intercepted and destroyed like bombs and are sent in volleys (an additional task for fighters).

Spinal mount: beam weapon? why not, but the only thing I would like is an explosion when impacting: It is a huge chunk of metal at near relativistic speed after all: imagine the effects...

Careful, there are more leviathans than this: regular fighter complement for a battleship is 144. (the shiva just can't accomodate that much, that's all. Also, remember that there are more leviathans in the briefing: The biggest battleship is the TOG illustris and the biggest carrier is the TOG overlord battleship carrier (more than 2000 fighters).

Flicker shields: they will act as normal shields in freespace.

As for fighters: you know what they say: a space battle without fighters is like a soup without mustache hair inside: Unconceivable realitywise  :lol:


 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
I allways thought that these weaponbays are ship to ship weapons. If its possible to make one weapon with up to 100 firepoints that are eather firing a small beam at the same time or bolds with a little delay it would be quite some view. Also it would lower the number of weapons on the ship to a quite managable number. The overlord would have about 8 bays and some AA turrets (no number given) and 3 missile launchers.

As for the size. I think that its no problem gamewise to make them 2km long. Its more a matter of you can detail them and paint them so the texture are still looking good. A simple solution would be to scale down everything by the same factor and keep the proportions.

"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
I allways thought that these weaponbays are ship to ship weapons. If its possible to make one weapon with up to 100 firepoints that are eather firing a small beam at the same time or bolds with a little delay it would be quite some view. Also it would lower the number of weapons on the ship to a quite managable number. The overlord would have about 8 bays and some AA turrets (no number given) and 3 missile launchers.

As for the size. I think that its no problem gamewise to make them 2km long. Its more a matter of you can detail them and paint them so the texture are still looking good. A simple solution would be to scale down everything by the same factor and keep the proportions.

     Yeah, like I said . . the maximum number of bays would be 12 for any one ship. If you can get a turret with that many firepoints, I dunno how that works, but might be cool (or not a turret persay, but rather a strip of little bumps on the ships). Maybe think something like the combat in Gunbuster with all it's laser cannons. Either way though, you'd want it to look cool. That's the bottom line. And yeah they are the anti-ship bays.

     Hmmn, now that I open modelview 2km long is only the length of the Orion. So that's perfectly manageable. Perhaps even a little small depending on how impressive you want the ships to be. Oh wait the Shiva's 2.75 . . . so that's basically 50% bigger than the orion, or longer anyway . . . of course it's also got that huge fin on it. So the sizes would probably translate pretty well.

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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    • http://gevatter_lars.tripod.com/
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Gunbuster was also my inspiration for how these bays could look like. ^_^
"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
The damage potentials bandied back and forth on the Leviathan scale are huge compared to the Interceptor level. I don't think it would be unheard of to award one-shot kills. The truism, "Safety in numbers" is very much apt when it comes to a fighter attack on a Leviathan. Of course, the lighter the Leviathan in question, the less damage potential it carries. Where a battleship would have a turret factor of 6 in close, a destroyer might have a 2. The weapons are still horrendous to a fighter, but they are much less like a GOD-GUN than are the turrets aboard a battleship.

The single failing to this is that I may be wrong. I have not looked at my games in years. It will late April, early May before I even can think about getting to them.

    Not everything is so cut and dry, here's a section from Leviathan regarding the conversion process between it and Interceptor:

                                   Leviathan                 Interceptor
Hex Size                         75km                        15km
Turn Length                 5 minutes                 1 minute
Armor Comparison         1 box                    100 boxes

Weapon Damage:
7.5/6 Laser at 1 Hex       .05                            10
37.5/30 at 1 Hex             .275                          55

Weapon Range:
7.5/6 Laser                      3                              15
37.5/30 Laser                  20                           100

        Some interesting things, the armor is translated at a rate of 1:100 but the damage is 1:200. Scarey stuff, but I think the most important thing in the table to realize is that one turn in Leviathan is equal to 5 minutes. So maybe a rating 6 turret on a Battleship can deal out the equivelant of 1200 damage or 600 armor boxes, BUT it's over a span of 5 minutes.

       I don't think you can really translate the game, straight across from a turn based boardgame to a real time space flight sim. Obviously if the warships only fire their antiship beams for example once every 5 minutes it's going to be pretty damn boring. What a person needs to do I think is take an average ship . . . and translate it stats across to something that "feels right" or feels fun. Then from there go, the rest of the ships will follow suite.

      For example, let's say a person picks the TOG FF Bantha as their baseline ship. For starters, maybe a person thinks oh 1 thrust point will equal 5 points of speed. So with 3 thrust the Bantha has 15m/s speed in FS. Maybe the player wants the ship about equal to the Deimos in terms of how much punishment it can take . .  so maybe they make some convoluted formula like ((total armour)*(1000)/6) so in this case ((480)*(1000)/6)) = 80000 hitpoints (same as the Deimos). As for weapons . . . well, who knows. One of the Bantha's 50 15/30 bays does 10 damage at range 1 over the course of 5 minutes. Using the same formula as above, that equates to about 1670 hitpoints of damage. This means that one such bay would have to hit another Bantha 48 times before destroying it (well, not including shields . . dunno about them just now). Using the full broadside of about 3 bays, it would take say . .. 15-20 hits to take down another Bantha. So maybe a person sets up a fight between a pair of such ships, and decides how long they want any such fight to last before one ship is destroyed. And from there, set up some sort of baseline for how often the guns fire.

     It's all about the feel of the battle right, you want the battle to be just the right amount of time to be interesting to play, but not so fast that the ships just waste eachother in a couple of salvos or that they take forever to do any damage and the player is bored out of their mind (or worse yet, unimpressed). If the player can do more damage to a ship than another ship can there's something wrong.

     There's a lot of stuff to think about, but basically I think a person wants to:
     A - determine the rules/methods for conversion using one or two baseline ships/fighters
     B - convert the rest of the units along those lines
     C - option: allow for some variation for added flavour to certain units. (ie if a ship is known to be very slow, then maybe you make it a bit slower than you would normally . . . just to fit the fluff).
     

 

Offline Dread

  • 22
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Ok, I have a couple of simple solutions to some problems. Feel free to chuck 'em out the airlock if they sound too flimsy.

If a hex in Leviathan is 75km, and a typical battleship has an acceleration of 2 per turn, then that equates to 30km/m in accel. There's a real world measurement that you can incorporate into the data displays. The only thing to keep in mind is that the game will have to be able to handle however many different ships with their own acceleration rates.

Bay weapons may only fire in a single direction, requiring the ship be steered for targeting outside the arc the weapons cover. The broadside bays may not fire forward or aft without turning the ship either left or right. The forward and aft bays may not fire into the broadside arcs. They count as a single shot, regardless of how many guns are in the bay. If the bay takes damage, then the firepower is correspondingly reduced until the bay is useless (say three of four glancing strikes or a single direct hit).

The one thing I don't recall seeing mentioned was power allocation. The ships engines have to supply power to more than just thrust and weapons. However, that means that you have to cut into the internal power (life support, etc.), if you make large power demands without diverting power from another system to one that you need it in. For example, A pristine battleship enters combat with an accelleration of 2, with power available for weapons. Before long, it is found that the battleship is in over its head and the commander has a choice. He can divert weapons power to the engines and gain an additional point of thrust, or he can further reduce his thrust and direct that power into his weapons and/or shields (if you decide that the shields can be rebuilt in battle). As an emergency measure, he can divert his life support power into the mix and make a fighting withdrawal with all of his functional weapons fully powered and engines in overthrust. Of course, this may have a detrimental effect on the crew, and if the crew dies of asphyxiation, then all the power in the galaxy is not going to allow that ship to survive.

I like the idea of fighters being able to target specific items on a starship's hull. Sensors, weapons and engines stand out as BIG targets in my mind, with other possibilities easily making the list. If they can take out the engines, then that would qualify as a kill, since the ship would be without power to fight or escape. Taking out the sensors makes weapons targeting and even target detection harder. And, of course, taking down the weapons bays or turrets degrades the ship's firepower. I like the idea of making the hangar bays capable of being destroyed. It also comes to mind that, if possible, the Leviathan ships have two sets of drives. The T-space, and the normal space drives. Damaging one or both may not actually kill the engines. But you could certainly prevent the ship from manuevering or escaping.

My vote is keep the ratios mentioned above for weapons strength and armor values. Weapons and sensors are by necessity lightly armored, and thus susceptible to fighter attack. Engines ar more protected, but the drives have weak directions that a fighter can hit to make a kill. Allow the acceleration to be piled on at the rate of the ship's accell, until it hits a maximum velocity imparted by the game.

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Ok, I have a couple of simple solutions to some problems. Feel free to chuck 'em out the airlock if they sound too flimsy.

If a hex in Leviathan is 75km, and a typical battleship has an acceleration of 2 per turn, then that equates to 30km/m in accel. There's a real world measurement that you can incorporate into the data displays. The only thing to keep in mind is that the game will have to be able to handle however many different ships with their own acceleration rates.

     Regarding intertia-based movement. It sounds like maybe you haven't played Freespace? I don't know. But . . . assuming that you haven't, Freespace is like X-Wing and Tie Fighter in that fighters and ships have a maximum velocity. They're either stopped or moving up to their maximum speed. Their maximum speed can then also be boosted by use of afterburners. Ships tend to range in speed from 10-50 . . with most warships being 30 or less. Fighters/Bombers start at around 45 and go upwards from there . . with top afterburner around 170-180 maybe in FS2? So giving a Battleship for example a speed of 30 m/s, and consequently some DDs might be around 75 m/s might be a little fast. Everything is relative though of course. The fastest fighter in Leviathan looks to be the Arcubalista at 13 thrust . . . so 13x15 = 195 m/s might be a little fast. But maybe not, would have to try and see.

   But, for intertia-based movement . . . I know some people have sorta done some tests where their fighter had unlimited speed limits but I'm not sure how well that worked.  I've never really heard of the AI having those same sorts of movement . . . especially the ship classes. It would be worth looking into but I'm not sure that it's possible. And if it is possible, how would the AI handle it? And would it be fun for the player?? These are all questions worth looking into.


Quote
Bay weapons may only fire in a single direction, requiring the ship be steered for targeting outside the arc the weapons cover. The broadside bays may not fire forward or aft without turning the ship either left or right. The forward and aft bays may not fire into the broadside arcs. They count as a single shot, regardless of how many guns are in the bay. If the bay takes damage, then the firepower is correspondingly reduced until the bay is useless (say three of four glancing strikes or a single direct hit).

        In Freespace there are basically two types of weapons on ships. Turrets and hardpoints. Hardpoints by their very nature have a fixed arc of fire so they'd work well for the bay weapons. I'm not sure that a weapon can be reduced in effectiveness through damage. One work around would be to simply break up bays into smaller bays. Say if you have a 100 gun bay, make it into four 25 gun bays instead. This then poses the problem of "bays can only fire at one target". If the guns are beam weapons, the player creating the mission can script the weapons to fire at certain times at certain targets. If they're projectile weapons, I believe that the new FredOpen mission builder allows a player to give weapons priority targets. Basically so that non-beam anti-ship weapons fire at ships instead of trying to fire at fighters. This target priority would ensure that each "bay" even if broken into smaller sub units, fires at the same target. The only thing is they probably wouldn't be firing at the same time.

Quote
The one thing I don't recall seeing mentioned was power allocation. The ships engines have to supply power to more than just thrust and weapons. . . . As an emergency measure, he can divert his life support power into the mix and make a fighting withdrawal with all of his functional weapons fully powered and engines in overthrust. Of course, this may have a detrimental effect on the crew, and if the crew dies of asphyxiation, then all the power in the galaxy is not going to allow that ship to survive.

       This has more to do with mission scripting rather than game mechanics. Aside from the players craft, ships don't have power allocation. But for capital ships for example the mission designer could script this sort of thing into the mission. For example, one option in the mission designer is to "lock-turret". This prevents a weapon on a ship from firing. A person could for example, "lock" several weapons when one of the ship's engines is disabled. The mission designer could link all of the weapons to one or more of the engines, such that when the engine is disabled the gun ceases to fire. I know that some people, I believe Trashman for example, like to "turn off" weapons on ships as they become damaged whether they are destroyed or not.
       The sense of desperation you describe can all be communicated over the comm channels, as it was done in Freespace2 on occasion.

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I like the idea of fighters being able to target specific items on a starship's hull. Sensors, weapons and engines stand out as BIG targets in my mind, with other possibilities easily making the list. If they can take out the engines, then that would qualify as a kill, since the ship would be without power to fight or escape. Taking out the sensors makes weapons targeting and even target detection harder. And, of course, taking down the weapons bays or turrets degrades the ship's firepower. I like the idea of making the hangar bays capable of being destroyed. It also comes to mind that, if possible, the Leviathan ships have two sets of drives. The T-space, and the normal space drives. Damaging one or both may not actually kill the engines. But you could certainly prevent the ship from manuevering or escaping.

      You can certainly add "subsystems" onto a model and have them be relevant to the mission. Ships typically have weapons, sensors, navigation, communications, reactor, fighterbay and engine subsystems (plus associated turrets). Of those, fighter bay is not targettable. I'm not even sure if there's any effect on the ship for any of those, though I know weapons supposidely decreases accuracy. But a modeller could add the T-Space drive for example . . . I don't think fighterbays are typically destroyable, but I think a person could add say a "hangar entrance". All fighters have conditionals to entering the field. If you have say two wings of fighters leaving a Frigate, you could have a conditional which effectively says "as long as hangar Entrance is not destroyed". So when the hangar entrance subsystem is destroyed, they stop arriving. But typically you can't destroy the fighterbay.

     But basically a lot of what you want can be achieved through the design of the mission. The behavior and stats of the ships only go so far.
     Let's say for example you have the player trying to help capture a ship.

     You could have them first destroy the T-Space Drive subsystem . . . if they don't the ship will eventually  jump out, if they do the ship will just keep running under normal engines.
     Then the player has to take out the engines, and linked to each engine is a number of weapon bays and turrets throughout the ship. Once the engines are all down, the guns cease firing. And the allied transports can come in, dock and deposite the marine assault force.

     For destroying subsystems like turrets, etcetera certain weapons can be weighted towards being more effective. Weapons have three values in freespace, damage versus shields, versus hull and versus subsystems. If you give a weapon a good anti-subsystem rating it can destroy the engines more easily. 

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Yes, I've been thinking about that: Unless I'm wrong, there are no "neutralise only" weapons in leviathan or interceptor (as opposed to the disruptor in freespace). Yet I recall that ship captures (even fighter captures) are possible in the RL universe: For instance, the renegades would LOVE to capture rather than destroy, the TOG ctwp fighter. On the other hand, if a cap ship flag is activated, this wouldn't prove extremely difficult to neutralise leviathans: Look at the lucifer in FS1: even though you mount killer weapons (not the disruptor), you can actually go faster in disabling the reactors than killing the lucifer itself.

Regarding size, I think just about every structure is doable, (even the last one which may be the biggest): The TOG illustris (biggest battleship) would range at 3 or slightly more KM. (unfortunately, the renegade cap briefing doesn't give length, but it does give mass though, so we can come out with a few estimations), While the overlord carrier (mannius) would be 3.5 (carriers are generally slightly longer than normal ships, and this one carrier more than 2000 fighters).

Also, I seem to recall persons telling me that fighter bays can be destroyable, only in freespace it was scripted that they would not be destroyed.