[starlord]

I'm thinking of something, especially with winged leviathans like the derrflinger or seneca: If the bays are where I think they are (on the "equatorial line" of the ship), they'll be just over the wings. But this leaves extremely large dead angles in which a ship can tear another in relative safety: Especially the underside of the ships, as the "wings" will obstruct the bays.

Your opinions on the matter?

[Akalabeth Angel]

I'm thinking of something, especially with winged leviathans like the derrflinger or seneca: If the bays are where I think they are (on the "equatorial line" of the ship), they'll be just over the wings. But this leaves extremely large dead angles in which a ship can tear another in relative safety: Especially the underside of the ships, as the "wings" will obstruct the bays.

Your opinions on the matter?

    Not sure what the ships you're referring to look like exactly, but there are a couple solutions in my mind to the problem:
    A - the weapon bay's locations aren't realy established, as far as I can tell. So the modeller can put them wherever they want. If bays are split up they could even put half of the bay under the wing, and the other half overtop.
    B - maybe the ship does have a blind spot which represents a weakness in the design which other ships can exploit during the mission gameplay.  Note that even with a big blind spot caused by the wing, a ship can roll towards the target and simply move that blind spot well away from the enemy. Of course you can't really make a ship roll in freespace, that I'm aware of, but you can have the ship enter the mission in that sort of fashion so that the enemy is always within it's sights.

[starlord]

Well: the derrflinger is a destroyer (lightest class of leviathan) and as such has 4 bays:

2 forward/aft
and 2 50bays left/right: Knowing it has only one per broadside, I suggest it will be above the wing to obtain maximum coverage, but the wing is providing a big dead angle: just perfect to attack the ship.

On the other hand, it's a destroyer, so I suppose it'll be nimble and have high thrust.

However, in that case 2 or 3 escorts on the ship's underside could spell doom: Those may be petrol ships only, but they are the largest of them AND mount the same type A slinal mount as the destroyer. Since tey are smaller, they have more thrust and are more maneuvreble: If they trim their spinal mounts on the underside of the ship then we have a problem.

The only thing I would see providing coverage here, aside from the anti fighter point defense turrets, would be the 360 degree firing missile system. That's why it must be made to fire volleys of (heavy cap ship) missiles at any degree possible (the missiles would spawn). And the only way to take out it's missile capability would be for fighters to disable the missile targetting subsystem somewhere on the hull of the ship, shutting down completely the missile spawns.

Also, one thing regarding the neutralising weapons for fighter capture (like the ctwp or else), Is it possible to modify the stats of a weapon during game play? For instance this mission in FS2 when you gave a shakedown to the pegasus fighter: Were they invulnerable or were your weapons trimmed to do no damage?
In vae victis, during a capture operation, command could warn you that they are alterning your weapon's fire mode to capture without killing, changing the weapon's stats during game play allowing you to capture a fighter without destroying it.

Would this be possible?

[starlord]

You lucky dogs: look what I got for you:

Pics of all the leviathans I have gathered up till now (all the tog ones if you put in addition those in the leviathan game).

Enjoy gawping your eyes out. No need to tell you I want to know everything you think, so post away.

link is here:

http://www.4shared.com/file/40795208/ff247228/renegade_leviathans.html?dirPwdVerified=380ccc6c

enjoy!

[Akalabeth Angel]

       Thanks dude. Still a book I'll have to pick up sometime . . . the Capital Ship Briefing seems to be one of the rarer ones.
       I notice on some ships like the Serpens the guy's detailed where the gun bays are specifically . . .but with the Derfflinger it's not really the case. The drawing of the Derfflinger is honestly a little wierd, the the shape of the wing is not at all clear. With the Derfflinger, maybe the bays are actually hidden behind a couple of those ribbed areas in front of the wing (look like garage doors). They might slide up to reveal the bays or something. That would make the wings less of an issue. . .  oh wait, not those are the fighter launch bays according to the description. It mentions the broadside bays but makes no reference to their location. So who knows . . .they could even be on the wings potential. But damn those wings are wierd, looks like they curve up come down, and down again into a fin in the 3/4 front view. But the profile doesn't suggest that. I mean, if the Derfflinger has the potential to cause problems, there's another 6 TOG destroyers out there. How many does the game really need? The Serpens and Doechendal are arguably just as cool looking. The Doech is described as the Workhorse, and the Serpens as "the most common TOG destroyer on the front lines" so I think in any adaptation they'd take precedence over the Derfflinger anyway.

[starlord]

yup, but we need all the ships from the brief into that MOD: It's a preservation task, remember? Besides, the derrflinger is one of the strongest destroyers available it seems and is capable of limited autonomy while the serpens is a rapid destroyer typically used in a battleship squadron as an anti-fighter platform.

[Akalabeth Angel]

yup, but we need all the ships from the brief into that MOD: It's a preservation task, remember? Besides, the derrflinger is one of the strongest destroyers available it seems and is capable of limited autonomy while the serpens is a rapid destroyer typically used in a battleship squadron as an anti-fighter platform.

      Hmmn . . . well, one thing at a time dude. I think you'd want to prioritize what units you'd need for a "core game" so to speak. Similar to how the Star Wars guys did the same with their ships (see the list in their forums). For example, the Derrflinger might be a fancy ship .. . but by the briefing there are like 570 in service, compared to 5000+ for the Dochendal. Serpens I see is actually pretty new . . . so maybe not a priority. Keep things in manageable realistic chunks. . . .have like a "big goal" of preserving everything. While at the same time, have some small goals or getting certain groups of units into a playable game. If you have some "small goals", you can celebrate those more often and keep your morale up while you continue to work on the long term goal. Primary goal should be providing an entertaining story to bring people into the RL universe, not simply preserving/cataloguing the units.
      For example, I checked out the TOG ships and this might be a core list based on numbers:

Dochendal Destroyer - _the_ workhorse unit
Morkanium Destroyer - one of the most commonly deployed destroyers
Seeadler Carrier - 2,500 in service (this also serves your role of being an autonomous ship . . . as it's designed as a Raider).

Invictus - widely deployed, _the cruiser_ of TOG. (older, but is the Cruiser when people think TOG cruiser)
Syracuse Cruiser - another older cruiser. widely deployed.

Bantha - widely deployed in all arms of service (don't know about the frigates, since haven't seen most of 'em)
Xerxes - basic FF carrier??

Shiva - most common BB

      Even that list . . . as a base, is kinda big. More warships than the Terrans have basically in FS2 just about. To shortlist it even more, I'd say Dochendal, Invictus, Xerxes, Shiva. (or maybe another destroyer?). Or to make it even shorter for like some basic game play demo. . . just have one destroyer for each side, Renegade and TOG (or even one destroyer they can share . . . since many TOG ships are now Renegade Legion ships) and have like 2-4 fighter classes total. Or maybe one side has destroyers, the others have ca ruiser. And the few destroyers are trying to hunt the Cruiser? Or Frigate? Some small goal like that which is achievable to help build motivation, interest and morale in that you're getting something done.

     That'd be my thoughts anyway.

[starlord]

yes: i know: that is the reason I'm redisigning my first campaign (turning point). there is also the question of where they are deployed: for instance, the conqueror is a well deployed cruiser but in pembroke, not in shannedam, which might be where campaign 2 might take us through.

basically, I'm trying to be fair about this, but my definite goal is to make all ships appear (at least one time), and unless when in special occasions, you can forget the renegades using tog ships (however, i did metion special occasions...)

one ship well deployed also is the canis and a cruiser carrier that i'll make up (the cicero).

besides, remember i don't have all the leviathans yet (especially on the renegade side).

[Akalabeth Angel]

basically, I'm trying to be fair about this, but my definite goal is to make all ships appear (at least one time), and unless when in special occasions, you can forget the renegades using tog ships (however, i did metion special occasions...)

one ship well deployed also is the canis and a cruiser carrier that i'll make up (the cicero).

besides, remember i don't have all the leviathans yet (especially on the renegade side).

    Don't forget the Renegade Legion used to be TOG. The RL is to TOG as the NTF is to the GTVA. In the Motlke description for example, it lists that 112 ships have defected, many to the RL. That's a lot of ships. I'm not saying you should give both sides the same ships . . . obviously you want some flavour for both the TOG and the Commmonwealth/RL. But there should certainly be some older ships which are found in both sides. Maybe for example an older TOG ship is found in the front lines for the Renegades, but the for TOG it's in the second line/reserve fleets so maybe the ship is a "good ship" for the first part of the grand campaign, and a "bad ship" for the second part as older defected ships are replaced by new Commonwealth-built ships. But, with some overlap here and there.
    One thing kinda dumb in my opinion about Freespace 2 is that even though it was a "civil war", the bad guys still had bad guy tech and the good guys had good guy tech. NTF was all Herc1s, Lokis, . .. that other light bomber, Orions etcetera. And the good guys were Herc 2s, Perseus, Hecates, etcetera. Easy for the player to understand . . .but kinda dumb. Especially since the Loki and the light bomber were solely bad guys in Silent Threat as well.

    But anyway, the first thing to finish would be the fighters, not the ships. As a fighter-based game they should have the most priority I'd think. A bunch of ships duking it out is cool, but you don't want every mission to be the Battle of Endor. But if the player gets to fight a bunch of different cool little fighters they'll probably be happy. Plus fighters are generally easier to model . . .
   

[starlord]

Yes, but I have to wait for interceptor pics, only I can tell you there are 60 to 70 models of interceptors (not counting the patrol ships (gunboat, corvettes, escort), utility ships (freighters, assault transports...)and bases/structures/stations.

Yes, the renegades WERE Tog legions, but that was ages ago, and ships have long been decommissioned since. However, perhaps a few TOG ships will appear in renegade ranks, but either during undercover, or much later (campaign 3, 4 and 5). When the renegades fled, most of them lost the equipment they've been trained to use over the years so that alone can explain the fact that there aren't many TOG designed vessels in their ranks. Besides, the TOG knows the capabilities of their ships, but what about those of the custom ships the commonwhealth/renegades fight with? not always, so tactically, it's also a better choice.

However, renegades (especially in later campaigns) will have all the time to approach TOG tech again (you will even fly their fighters). But I won't tell you more.

question: is it possible to make (on planet missions) soldier legions next to attacking tanks (like a sort of white "cover" on the land representing the infantry)? Like this interceptors could sweep the infantry away along with the tanks with ground missiles. (the cover would "get eaten away" with weapon's fire and blasts and mission directives would be validated when completely destroyed). Is this possible?

Also, don't underestimate the threat of TOG fighters: they'll attack your freighters (spiculums, ictuses), they'll attack your ships (gladii, spathas), they'll recon your fleets (arcubalistas, launceas), they'll stop your recons (the same), they'll protect their ships (martiobarbulus, defensor). You'll have to fight them often, sometimes in big swarms.

[Getter Robo G]

I'm only gonna post a tangent in your thread once Starlord...

[Warning: explanation, sarcasm, and joke response] smiley included at end...

Akalabeth made 2 posts about Trek for some reason  .

Yes still alive, (where have you been last 4 years), anyway Omni was working on a version of the mod independently you understand more (CAP SHIPS) then stopped. Previous to that I started the fighter POV one. GRANTED, fighters in Trek get the short end of the stick but it's canon for the genre that certain factions and lower tech worlds HAVE FIGHTERS! Numerous episodes and Trek games have them since the 70's (Starfleet Battles),  90's (SFC series of games), Invasion (PS1), Shattered Universe (PS2), etc...

Due to the tech base Cap ships roll over fighters worse than a Sathanas over a Fenris, BUT you get a squadron of Peregrines unloading Micro Q-Torps on the same target they are going to have a bad day! So while battle will be ridiculously hard, they are not unwinnable.

Now WHY make a Trek fighter mod? Because I think it will be cool and not totally unfeasible. While I love Klingon Academy and the original Starfleet academy, how fun is it really gonna be to fly diff cap ships all day via joystick when interactionand immersion will be minimal?

So you're the damn Captain,helmsman, navigator,comm officer and engineer all at one on a cap ship in what basicly is a fighter simm? (in ships not even close to scale anyway). If you want to do that might as well pack it in and get the ORIGINAL games that do it the way it should be done and not try a rough and lacking conversion for FS2.

Those games are a blast, but if you don't have cloaking, oversharging of weapons shields, self repair ability, and numerous other interface options in the middle of a battle you would be missing out on a lot of Trek oriented stuff as well as gameplay experience...

Trek Fighters on the other hand, are a lot more similar to FS2 combat (minus the ability to make micro warps and Warp speed attacks, etc) minor stuff that can be easily dismissed.

plus the most important reason of all: Cause I want to.


Talk to Gunbuster: my new PR unit...

I find in difficult situations a Buster Beam solves most problems/disagreements.
Next thing you're going to say is you don;t understand the point of having Them in FS2!
[Oh wait that's actually more logical...] 

[starlord]

As far as star trek fighters are concerned, I agree, getter robo G. Besides, I would like to fly a valkyrie again against a borg sphere or cube
there are a lot of ships in trek though, if you are to include them all (which I hope you will, even that mysterious race in invasion) it will be hard.

While you're here, Here's the eboliar pics from robotech crystal dreams: Perhaps you'll include it as well in your MOD:
http://www.opusgames.com/games/rcd/fanart.html

Right: besides, dread: might you have some info on the interceptors briefings and the tanks briefing?

[Getter Robo G]

Not really, the closest thing I could add even would be the ones like trinagular Rocks, since Venom(Nico) made some rotating with the f-22 demo I got the skybox and ground terrain from. They look more like the JAM from Yukkikaze.

[starlord]

Excuse me? Are you talking about eboliar or the trek ships?

[Dread]

The tank briefing is in storage over 1300 miles away from me. It will be late April, early May at the absolute earliest before I can get to it. As far as the fighter briefings go, I did not see them on the rack last week. I'll look again this week to see if they were hidden behind something else.

[starlord]

Hmm pity, but thanks anyway: Meanwhile, we'll try to concentrate on the leviathans.

Dread, which ones would you see as most standardly deployed in shannedam?

[Dread]

First and foremost, I'd say anything that is actually stated to be in the County in the breifings. After that, I'd say that you will see mostly the commonly deployed ships, with a scattering of the newest. I'd go with the list that was laid out a few posts back and run with it.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Yes still alive, (where have you been last 4 years), anyway Omni was working on a version of the mod independently you understand more (CAP SHIPS) then stopped. Previous to that I started the fighter POV one. GRANTED, fighters in Trek get the short end of the stick but it's canon for the genre that certain factions and lower tech worlds HAVE FIGHTERS! Numerous episodes and Trek games have them since the 70's (Starfleet Battles),  90's (SFC series of games), Invasion (PS1), Shattered Universe (PS2), etc...

     Uh, more like 2-3 years . . but school, and doing other things besides freespace. SFC is based on SFB so not really valid as a element unto itself

Now WHY make a Trek fighter mod? Because I think it will be cool and not totally unfeasible. While I love Klingon Academy and the original Starfleet academy, how fun is it really gonna be to fly diff cap ships all day via joystick when interactionand immersion will be minimal?

So you're the damn Captain,helmsman, navigator,comm officer and engineer all at one on a cap ship in what basicly is a fighter simm? (in ships not even close to scale anyway). If you want to do that might as well pack it in and get the ORIGINAL games that do it the way it should be done and not try a rough and lacking conversion for FS2.

Those games are a blast, but if you don't have cloaking, oversharging of weapons shields, self repair ability, and numerous other interface options in the middle of a battle you would be missing out on a lot of Trek oriented stuff as well as gameplay experience...

Trek Fighters on the other hand, are a lot more similar to FS2 combat (minus the ability to make micro warps and Warp speed attacks, etc) minor stuff that can be easily dismissed.

     I dunno about DS9 but the only fighters I saw on TNG where
     A  - Wesley Crusher and his buddies pissing around.
     B - random lowtech fighters attack Enterprise, vaporized in one phaser volley.
     C - random Fed ships launch near jupiter to stop Borg Cube. Last all of 2 seconds.
     D - Picard and the Nemesis Romulans birds escaping the Scimitar (or something like that).

     I got no problems with you making/working on a mod, I just don't see the point myself. Though I've got no problem trying the end product. If you can create something fun and enjoyable I'll be pleasantly surprised. Never actually played any Star Trek games myself . . .thought about picking up Legacy but didn't. OOh, I might've played some text-based game AGES ago . . but the closest I've got to a star trek game was Space Quest. haha.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Yes, the renegades WERE Tog legions, but that was ages ago, and ships have long been decommissioned since. However, perhaps a few TOG ships will appear in renegade ranks, but either during undercover, or much later (campaign 3, 4 and 5). When the renegades fled, most of them lost the equipment they've been trained to use over the years so that alone can explain the fact that there aren't many TOG designed vessels in their ranks. Besides, the TOG knows the capabilities of their ships, but what about those of the custom ships the commonwhealth/renegades fight with? not always, so tactically, it's also a better choice.

       Well, Renegade Legions formed in . . 6681. Most of the smaller ships entered TOG service thereafter, but some of the Battleships are notable exceptions. The Ultor ISD is 66002 and the Illustris is from late 6500s so Renegades might have of those left. But yeah it does seem the Cruisers have shorter operation lifetimes. Or at least, the Capital Brief doesn't list any old ones.  And I don't think the Renegades lost their equipment, once source online I have says the Renegade Legion consisted of "half the fleet" (that was gathered on the Kessrith border).

question: is it possible to make (on planet missions) soldier legions next to attacking tanks (like a sort of white "cover" on the land representing the infantry)? Like this interceptors could sweep the infantry away along with the tanks with ground missiles. (the cover would "get eaten away" with weapon's fire and blasts and mission directives would be validated when completely destroyed). Is this possible?

    Hmmn, do Interceptors even carry anti-personnel weaponry? I've never used Bounce infantry in Centurion, so I don't know if the tanks needed particular guns to fight the infantry. If so the interceptors likely wouldn't have them. But who knows. One would think they'd just land some grav tanks to kill the infantry. With the interceptors maybe helping more against enemy grav tanks??? But to answer your question, I'm sure you could just make something as simple as a flat cube type object and put a picture of a bunch of little guys on it with some firepoints or something.


   And yeah, I forgot all those interceptors. One book for each faction. Bah.
   Might get my parents to bring some of my RL stuff to me when they visit mid april.

[starlord]

Right, that would be great, angel: If you can have a few pics, I'll thoroughly appreciate.

I seem to remember (from what's left of kannic's pages) that there were also kessrith designs (fighters and corvettes). Even if fewer (10-15), I would like to implement them also. Who knows, perhaps users might be interested to make campaigns on the kessrith front...