[zircher]

Slowly walking through 15 pages of messages...

    One thing kinda dumb in my opinion about Freespace 2 is that even though it was a "civil war", the bad guys still had bad guy tech and the good guys had good guy tech. NTF was all Herc1s, Lokis, . .. that other light bomber, Orions etcetera. And the good guys were Herc 2s, Perseus, Hecates, etcetera. Easy for the player to understand . . .but kinda dumb. Especially since the Loki and the light bomber were solely bad guys in Silent Threat as well.

Look at it from this perspective...   If Arizona were to have a civil war, the northern forces would have F-16s from Luke AFB and the southern forces would have A-10s from Davis-Monthan AFB plus UAVs and attack choppers from Fort Huachuca.  Logistically, you group like craft together to reduce their maintenance and training costs. 

So, it is plausible that the FS2 civil war could have some isolation in fighter and ship classes.  Of course, a more realisitic view would take into account where the manfacturing sites for their units are located.  What that means with regard to scripting a RL campaign is that a Renegade Legion unit might start out with 100% TOG units but as fighters are lost, they have to be replaced with Commonwealth units.  Artistically, RL units might look more patchwork that TOG or CW units as well since they have to depend more on repairing damaged sub systems rather than replacing them.
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TAZ

[zircher]

A lot of persons attempted at modelling the shiva.

I think every Renegade Legion fan that has some 3D skills at some point does a version of the Shiva.  I know that I have.  :-)
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TAZ

[Akalabeth Angel]

So, it is plausible that the FS2 civil war could have some isolation in fighter and ship classes.  Of course, a more realisitic view would take into account where the manfacturing sites for their units are located.  What that means with regard to scripting a RL campaign is that a Renegade Legion unit might start out with 100% TOG units but as fighters are lost, they have to be replaced with Commonwealth units.  Artistically, RL units might look more patchwork that TOG or CW units as well since they have to depend more on repairing damaged sub systems rather than replacing them.

        You should know first off that Freespace 2 is very scripted as far as games go. Basically the player is playing through a story that the mission designer has laid out for them. Whereas I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Jacob's Star was a little more freeform (as was Interceptor which preceeded it). So in any given mission, you might get a choice of fighter and a choice of missiles (typically Freespace gives you a choice of weapons as well but RL the weapons seem to be less flexible (ie built in)), but beyond that, you're just playing a very specific mission with its own briefing, objectives, in-flight chatter, etcetera.

        I wasn't really up to speed on the RL-verse at the time of that post, and didn't realize that the Renegades had been seperate from TOG for so long. At this point in history, which is what, 100+ years after the split they should both be using more/less their own units. With the exception perhaps of some enduring ship classes like the Ultor Battleship which pre-dates even TOG. Most of the fighter classes are only 70-80 years old at most with the exception of the Defensor (and maybe the CWTP).

       Though if a ship and its fighter wing were to suddenly go Renegade, they would of course have TOG equipment. Maybe a cool campaign would start on the side of TOG, as the pilot a member of their armed forces. But through several incidents the player's mini faction decides to go Renegade and the first arc of the story ends with them fighting to the Renegade territory. In turn, maybe the leader of the player's force has valuable intel which leads to the events which lead into a RL/CW counter offensive. And later, as the player plays the side of the Renegades, their TOG fighter is gradually replaced with RL/CW units. That might be one idea. The blurb for one of the TOG destroyers suggests that defections to the renegades is an ongoing reality.

[zircher]

Semi-technical modelling questions, the two latest models that I've seen have some pretty high polygon counts for a realtime game with potential for lots of units in the air.  I know these are LOD0 models, but I'm curious as to how many levels of detail FS2 supports and what are the polygon bugets for each level?

I've got some low res Interceptor models (all the basic units for CW and TOG) that I'd like to contribute, but it would be good to know how many levels of detail would be required.  I'm kind of looking at the project from the opposite direction from Akalabeth Angel.  Instead of starting with high detail models and eventually reducing them with each level, I need to add details as the levels move towards LOD0.
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TAZ

I've attached a JPG of the models as viewed in a back burner project that I'm working on.  Sorry about the generic textures.  The two stations in the back are inspired by the 2D multi- hex counters included in the board game.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[starlord]

Actually, I intend to continue the jacob's star story, however, if finished, Knowing the fact that the RL universe is so vast, I guess everyone good at fredding may try their own ideas: An "enlightment" campaign like the one you suggested might be very interesting, as well as a kessrith or true TOG one (on the kessrith or comm front). Also, I guess it could be possible to recreate the human Vs Kessrith-ssora war, up to the original trajan uprising finally culminating up to the heroic flight of constantin and his soon to become renegades.
Or else explore the future and uneveil hidden misteries like that of the hivers: are they dead or lurking? are they neutral or the next threat to challenge the sentient species of the galaxy once the TOG has collapsed. What? You disagree on that part? Well then make up your view of the story.
Also, I've noticed a lot of WW2 stories are nicely sinched with the RL universe: Despite working on the main campaign, I've been imagining a few short stories, one being the invasion of trader's paradise by a raider force led by the notourious bismark, a mars class battleship. And a band of merchants and their outdated devil fighters and no hope of reinforcements. Although this was just a thought of course.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the fact of bringing space combat to the RL universe (eg: jacob's star) was a GREAT idea. The fact that the game wasn't successful (mainly because of tech issues involving non true SVGA graphics and also the fact that the wing commander 3 killer was on the loose) doesn't mean the idea has to be forgotten (I've heard that a sequel was planned under the name return to jacob's star, but then canned. Anyway, my campaign sees action there, so no matter).

If this MOD succeeds, this universe will be granted what every TC under freespace is granted (thanks to FRED): Immortality!

Hey, what are those stations? Are those the mythical "fort oasis" class kannic has been promoting in his modified briefs?

[zircher]

Hey, what are those stations? Are those the mythical "fort oasis" class kannic has been promoting in his modified briefs?

In RL:INT they're just targets for destruction or recon scanning, same with the original computer game (prior to Jacob's Star.)  I don't think they ever had names beyond generic spacestation and VLCA relay station.  I'll have to do some homework to determine if they're part of the Oasis class.  Given their deployment on the fringe where they are vulnerable to fighter hit and run tactics, it is internally consistent with the RL universe. 

Since the stations are 3D represenations of just an overhead view, there is a lot of artistic license in their design.  On that note, anyone who has ever tried to model a Shiva has run into the same problem where if you have six artists you are going to get six versions of the Shiva.
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TAZ

[Akalabeth Angel]

Semi-technical modelling questions, the two latest models that I've seen have some pretty high polygon counts for a realtime game with potential for lots of units in the air.  I know these are LOD0 models, but I'm curious as to how many levels of detail FS2 supports and what are the polygon bugets for each level?

        Hmmn, well, the far away levels can be very very basic. Basically, like if a person can't see the detail, there's no point having the game render it. I'm at work right now, but when I get home I'll give you an example from the HTL project, which is basically . . . people creating high-poly versions of the original Freespace ships. I get the impression that for the most part, that they only bothered modifying the LOD0 and maybe LOD1 but the others remain in their original form.

       Here's a little bit about modelling: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Modelling

       But, as far as the original game, I think in general that a ship might have LOD0-LOD3 or 4. I think it's up to the creator really. And for like an FS Cruiser-sized ship (in RL terms, would be maybe an Escort-class ship), might have like 6000-10000 polygons (inc turrets) for LOD0, but for LOD3 or 4 it might be like 10-20 polygons (literally).

Actually, I intend to continue the jacob's star story, however, if finished, Knowing the fact that the RL universe is so vast, I guess everyone good at fredding may try their own ideas: An "enlightment" campaign like the one you suggested might be very interesting, as well as a kessrith or true TOG one (on the kessrith or comm front). Also, I guess it could be possible to recreate the human Vs Kessrith-ssora war, up to the original trajan uprising finally culminating up to the heroic flight of constantin and his soon to become renegades.

       Ah right, the Jacob's Star thing.
       Keep in mind though, that when you're writing your story that 95% of the people who play the MOD probably never even heard of Jacob's Star let alone played it. So, your presentation of information should keep that in mind.

        But yes, people could basically do whatever they want for fredding missions. Though older stories would use different combat craft so wouldn't necessarily be doable. Though, some of the TOG fighters are noted as being used in the last TOG-KessRith war. Though of course, there aren't really enough KessRith units to have a full fledged campaign without people making stuff up.

[zircher]

Scripting questions that might result in 'authentic' flicker shields...

I read in a previous post that you can via script make a ship vulnerable or invulnerable.  Cool, so the first question is can you do that in the middle of a game?  Next question, when a ship is hit, can we determine which facing it comes in from?  (Specifically the left, right, fore, and aft quadrants or perhaps a bearing for cap ships.)  Final question, does the script allow you to roll random numbers and check the results? 

If the answer is yes to all of those questions, then it should be very feasible to recreate flicker shield technology within FS2 so that it mimics the Renegade Legion universe.  Universal ablative armor I can live with, but the ablative shields that have been proposed is a poor compromise (in my humble opinion.)  Even without the bearing data, it might be possible to create 360 degree flicker shields.  I can also see linking them with a sub system on the fighter to simulate a shield generator critical hit.

Thoughts?
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TAZ

This made on the assumption that scripts can be triggered by events such as getting hit by a weapon, ramming an object, getting caught in an explosion, etc.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I read in a previous post that you can via script make a ship vulnerable or invulnerable.  Cool, so the first question is can you do that in the middle of a game?  Next question, when a ship is hit, can we determine which facing it comes in from?  (Specifically the left, right, fore, and aft quadrants or perhaps a bearing for cap ships.)  Final question, does the script allow you to roll random numbers and check the results? 

       That's mission scripting specifically. The vulnerable/invulnerable.
       But to be honest I hadn't really thought about actual scripting . . like coding (some people are animating things with coding for example). It's certainly something to look into with regards to flicker shields and would give the RL it's proper flavour (Even though that seems to have been abandoned somewhat in Jacob's star???). The scripting is something I've been curious about but haven't really looked into.

Universal ablative armor I can live with, but the ablative shields that have been proposed is a poor compromise (in my humble opinion.)  Even without the bearing data, it might be possible to create 360 degree flicker shields.  I can also see linking them with a sub system on the fighter to simulate a shield generator critical hit.

         Hmmn, yeah I haven't thought too much about the shields to be honest. I've been looking at more recreating the armour system. I believe the ablative shields is something Starlord (who's idea this mod is in the first place) thought would be not-bad because basically that's what Jacob's Star did and I get the impression that Jacob's Star is Starlord's first and perhaps (only??) experience with Renegade Legion.

          But yeah, having actual flicker shields would be pretty cool and unique.

[zircher]

I believe the ablative shields is something Starlord (who's idea this mod is in the first place) thought would be not-bad because basically that's what Jacob's Star did and I get the impression that Jacob's Star is Starlord's first and perhaps (only??) experience with Renegade Legion.

Jacob's Star is not a bad thing unto itself, but if you didn't come in from the board game or SSI's first RL:INT game, you would not be aware of what compromises were made in order to make it more like Wing Commander.  (Again, not a bad thing since WC was all the rage at that time.)

But yeah, having actual flicker shields would be pretty cool and unique.

It would certainly put some fear and loathing into the game when you come across a Fluttering Petal or Gladius.  :-)

I understand the need for compromise due to the game engine specs.  Those I can rest easy with.  But, I think it would be nice to score some authenticity points as well since the potential fan base covers all Renegade Legion fans.

Back to scripts, I was reading through the wiki and it does mention some hooks for weapon and collision events.  So, the scripting question remains open for me.  I might have to hunt down a Lau/FS2 scripting guru and see what they say about the possibility of modelling flicker shields.
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TAZ

[Akalabeth Angel]

Back to scripts, I was reading through the wiki and it does mention some hooks for weapon and collision events.  So, the scripting question remains open for me.  I might have to hunt down a Lau/FS2 scripting guru and see what they say about the possibility of modelling flicker shields.

        Hmmn, well I'm at work right now and know jack-all about scripting but you could try posting your ideas in the scripting sub board. I believe that's where all the knowledgable types like to hang out .

        Flicker shields might be a bit problematic when it comes to ships though . . I mean I don't know how intensive those calculations are going to be, but when you've got like Veratum(?) and a Shiva Nova with 200+ guns per side blasting into eachother that'll be a lot of computations potentially . But who knows. Thing is these sorts of MODs take months and years to reach completion, so there's certainly lots of time to look at all sorts of stuff (another one would be newtonian inertia).

[zircher]

Hmmn, well I'm at work right now and know jack-all about scripting but you could try posting your ideas in the scripting sub board. I believe that's where all the knowledgable types like to hang out.

Done.

Flicker shields might be a bit problematic when it comes to ships though . . I mean I don't know how intensive those calculations are going to be, but when you've got like Veratum(?) and a Shiva Nova with 200+ guns per side blasting into eachother that'll be a lot of computations potentially.

I don't think the burden would be that heavy, the logic is fairly straight forward:

1.  Was I hit?  If weapon hit event = yes then call flicker shield script.
2.  Determine angle of attack.
3.  Was there a functional shield generator subsystem in that quadrant?
4.  If yes then roll dice else apply damage normally.
5.  Was the die roll less than or equal to the flicker rate for that subsystem?
6.  If yes then the fighter is invulnerable for that attack else apply damage normally.

That should not be too bad.  Some things like angle of attack might already be generated by the system.
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TAZ

[starlord]

Actually, if it's possible, then why not?

despite not having played the board game, I have read and studied the docs of interceptor and leviathan: It's quite true that jacob has simplified a few things here and there. However, I'd be willing to find a compromise:

Some weapons (HGMDCs, spinal mounts) are described as able to penetrate leviathan shielding.
Also, no matter the flicker rate, I've read somewhere that multiple heavy shots/missile impacts CAN overpower the shield even when flicker is on (Don't remember where I've read it though).

But you're right about one thing: It WOULD be original, and who am I to deny what RL people want?

Also, zircher, I hope you'll forgive me for forgetting to go on with my duties:

 



Exits are to the rear and left. In case of emergency... Err.. I don't know where the shotguns went

[Akalabeth Angel]

As for polygon counts, well . . each fighter/ship has 4 levels + one level for debris for a total of 5.
Some counts for various ships:

Moloch Corvette (this would be about RL Destroyer sized)
Level1: 6664 polys
Level2: 1692
Level3: 446
Level4: 22

Loki Interceptor (featured in the image)
Level1: 9344
Level2: 323
Level3: 205
Level4: 40

Hecate Destroyer (Cruiser or Frigate Class for RL)
Level1: 16453
Level2: 824
Level3: 556
Level4: 198

Lucifer SuperDestroyer (again, around Cruiser or Frigate sized)
Level1: 12,304
Level2: 2682
Level3: 227
Level4: 12

         So, as you can see there's quite a bit of room for low poly and high poly models. Most of the high poly fighters average more around 3000, so . . . some of mine are probably getting  a tad too detailed. I might try to bear that in mind as I continue along with other fighters.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Akalabeth Angel]

Some weapons (HGMDCs, spinal mounts) are described as able to penetrate leviathan shielding.
Also, no matter the flicker rate, I've read somewhere that multiple heavy shots/missile impacts CAN overpower the shield even when flicker is on (Don't remember where I've read it though).

       The only thing I'm aware of offhand that can overpower a flicker shield is the Gauss-type rounds fired by the Grav Tanks. But they're not mounted on interceptors (and maybe the Thor(?) rounds can do it too, not sure).

[starlord]

spinal mount crowbars can do that (I read it somewhere in leviathan) and kannik's tchakmul and tchakmul weyeb fighters (one of the first designed precisely to attack leviathans) sport heavy gatling mass driver cannons capable of breaking through the shields of leviathans.

zircher, Might you know where several designs described by kannik come from? I'm most interested to know where he found out the meteorum assault corvette, the castra praetorii small base and the prince regent heavy fighter. Do those ring a bell? AFAIK, they are considered canon.

[zircher]

Could they be write ups from the novels?
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TAZ

Thanks, good to be aboard.

[starlord]

I'm afraid I can't answer that question, as I haven't read any RL models. However, I do know a few glimpses I'm going to use, like parts of the kraken story, and possibly allusions to the fireeagles and the golden medusas. Also, some officers (mostly, the covert OPS commander you'll be working with in the later chapter during the infiltration of TOG territory) might follow the "ex-TOG" description similar to that in renegade's honour.

News: Brad is attempting to model the overlord on starshattermods. There's a small way to go, but he's progressing nicely!

[zircher]

Good news on the question about scripting flicker shields.  It looks like scripting system is fully capable of supporting that level of behavior with ship specific events.  Good to know when it comes time to implement it.

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,54327.0.html

What's interesting is that such a script would free up normal shields.  Perhaps they can be used as RL directional ablative 'armor'?   I'm hopeful that the game engine can simulate more of the RL universe flavor than previously thought.  I'm sure that there would be a fair amount of tweaking and game balancing that would need to be done to give it the right feel.  But, knowing is half of the battle.
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TAZ

[starlord]

Neat! This should give RL fans a round for their money!